Uzi Conversion legalitites?

[nsnate02]

Just curious, what are the rules and regs for taking a Norinco Uzi to a pistol configuration. ie. pistol barrel, no stock?
From this,
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w191/nsnate02/uzi1.jpg
to this?
http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/admin/images/content/uzipistol.jpg

[nj.piney]

i dont know the laws on that but it would probably be cheaper and easier to sell it and buy a vector arms uzi pistol.

[Magiccarpetrides]

Nsnate...im obviously no expert but legally you cant change the barrel size unless you do an ATF SBR (form#?) for it. However you could get rid of all that wood and put a fold over stock on it with no forms at all since its already considered a carbine. It would look pretty funny though until you had the barrel cut down.

[bkelm18]

Nsnate...im obviously no expert but legally you cant change the barrel size unless you do an ATF SBR (form#?) for it. However you could get rid of all that wood and put a fold over stock on it with no forms at all since its already considered a carbine. It would look pretty funny though until you had the barrel cut down.

Well once you remove the stock, it's no longer a rifle, so the length of the barrel becomes a non-issue.

[crimsonaudio]

I think you'll be illegal unless you have at least 10 US made parts on it. Not only that, but if that barrel is 16" long, I don't think you can turn it into a pistol no matter what.

Those who know, please correct me if I'm wrong...

[Magiccarpetrides]

Contact JWP or Hero Gear for accurate info :up:

[bkelm18]

I think you'll be illegal unless you have at least 10 US made parts on it. Not only that, but if that barrel is 16" long, I don't think you can turn it into a pistol no matter what.

Those who know, please correct me if I'm wrong...

If you're speaking of 922r, you kind of have it backwards, you can't have more then 10 foreign made parts on it. As far as the barrel, if it has no stock, then why couldn't he cut it down or put in a pistol barrel?

[Hero Gear]

Well once you remove the stock, it's no longer a rifle, so the length of the barrel becomes a non-issue.

Not correct. You can not take something that was once a rifle, and simply make it a pistol. Pretty fast way to get yourself in a bad situation.

If you take the Norinco 320 pictured, and remove the wooden stock, and replace it with a original Uzi folding stock, it will remain a rifle and you should be fine.
To shorten that barrel, you will complete the SBR application process, and once approved, you can shorten the barrel, but again; its still a rifle/carbine, not a pistol.

[Hero Gear]

If you're speaking of 922r, you kind of have it backwards, you can't have more then 10 foreign made parts on it. As far as the barrel, if it has no stock, then why couldn't he cut it down or put in a pistol barrel?

Look at it this way:
If you take an AR, remove the buttstock, can you call it a pistol and put a 7.5" barrel on it? NO

You as a private citizen have no ability or legal way to take that rifle and wave a magic wand over something and call it a pistol.
It doesnt work that way.

If the OP wants a shorter barrel, buy an Uzi/clone pistol, or SBR his Norinco 320

[crimsonaudio]

If you're speaking of 922r, you kind of have it backwards, you can't have more then 10 foreign made parts on it.
Ahhh, right.

As far as the barrel, if it has no stock, then why couldn't he cut it down or put in a pistol barrel?
See Joe's answer above mine - my understanding has always been that once something is classified as a rifle, making it anything else takes some serious hoop jumping or is impossible...

[bkelm18]

[/color]

Look at it this way:
If you take an AR, remove the buttstock, can you call it a pistol and put a 7.5" barrel on it? NO

You as a private citizen have no ability or legal way to take that rifle and wave a magic wand over something and call it a pistol.
It doesnt work that way.

If the OP wants a shorter barrel, buy an Uzi/clone pistol, or SBR his Norinco 320

I didn't say he can do it, I was asking why couldn't he.

[Hero Gear]

This is not a 922r issue, but since its been brought up:


What is 922R?

Title 18 of the US Code (18 USC), Chapter 44 Section 922 provides guidance on unlawful acts as they relate to firearms. You can read the text of the law by clicking here (http://www.access.gpo.gov/uscode/title18/parti_chapter44_.html).

Section 922 Paragraph R states:
"It shall be unlawful for any person to assemble from imported parts any semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun which is identical to any rifle or shotgun prohibited from importation under section 925(d)(3) of this chapter as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes except that this subsection shall not apply to--
(1) the assembly of any such rifle or shotgun for sale or distribution by a licensed manufacturer to the United States or any department or agency thereof or to any State or any department, agency, or political subdivision thereof; or
(2) the assembly of any such rifle or shotgun for the purposes of testing or experimentation authorized by the Attorney General. "

Most of us don't fall under those exceptions, so we are left to deal with meeting compliance with the law.

"Sporting" Purposes
Here's where things get a little tricky. Some rifles, such as the Saiga line, are imported for sporting purposes in a particular configuration. Generally, that means that do not incorporate any of the "evil" features that are typically associated with so-called "semi-automatic assault weapons". Chapter 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations Section 478.11 defines these SAWs. You can read the law, here (http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=a5193b20d0fcc546d314f45225c4f025&rgn=div8&view=text&node=27:3.0.1.2.3.2.1.1&idno=27). Specific examples of these features include:

- High capacity (greater than 10 round for rifles, 5 rounds for shotgun) magazines
- Pistol grip attachment
- Folding buttstock
- Muzzle device/attachment (to include a threaded barrel capable of receiving a device)
- Bayonet lugs
If your rifle or shotgun incorporates those features, it no longer is considered "suitable for sporting purposes".

Assembling Semiauto Rifles and Shotguns
If your rifle or shotgun is subject to 922R, you must now make sure that it is in compliance with the regulations governing the assembly of semiautomatic rifles and shotguns. That is covered in Title 27 Chapter 1 Section 178.39. Click here (http://www.atf.treas.gov/regulations/27cfr178.html)to see the text of the law. It states :
(a) No person shall assemble a semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun using more than 10 of the imported parts listed in paragraph (c) of this section if the assembled firearm is prohibited from importation under section 925(d)(3) as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes.

Paragraph (C) defines the following parts as "countable" under the law:
(1) Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings or stampings *
(2) Barrels *
(3) Barrel extensions
(4) Mounting blocks (trunions) *
(5) Muzzle attachments *
(6) Bolts *
(7) Bolt carriers *
(8) Operating rods
(9) Gas pistons *
(10) Trigger housings
(11) Triggers *
(12) Hammers *
(13) Sears
(14) Disconnectors *
(15) Buttstocks *
(16) Pistol grips *
(17) Forearms, handguards *
(18) Magazine bodies *
(19) Followers *
(20) Floorplates *
These 20 items are referred to with the term "compliance parts". There are lots of other components that go into a weapon, but there are the only ones that count in terms of complying with the law.

The 16 items marked with an asterisk are the parts that are generally found on a standard AK 47. The Saiga sporter rifle, as imported, does not have a muzzle device or pistol grip, so it has 14 countable parts. A Saiga shotgun has 13 countable parts (the trunnion is considered part of the receiver) - 14 if the barrel is threaded.

So once you have done something to take your rifle or shotgun out of a "sporting" configuration, you must now make sure that your weapon has no more than 10 of these parts that are imported.

Complying with 922R
Now the trick is making your weapon compliant with the law. To do that, you will need to replace 3 to 6 of the existing parts with components made in the US.

Here are the parts that most owners use to achieve 922R compliance:
- Trigger
- Hammer
- Disconnector
- Buttstock
- Pistol grip
- Handguard (upper and lower handguards on an AK only count as 1 compliance part)
- Gas piston
- Magazine parts (Note: body, follower and floorplate each count as 1 compliance part).

So you can see that there are plenty of ways to achieve 922R compliance. Personally, I think relying on magazine parts to meet compliance is risky: if someone puts a foreign-made magazine in your weapon, you are now in violation of Federal law. Better to use the other parts for compliance and save the magazines as a "nice to have" compliance option.

Calculating Compliance

How you figure your compliance is up to you. Some people just count up the number of foreign parts and make sure it's less than 10. They don't consider any added parts if they are US-made. Personally, I prefer to start with the total number of compliance parts in my rifle/shotgun, then work backwards. To me it's safer, in the event that somewhere down the road you change out one part for another.

Here's an example: I have a Saiga AK with pistol grip and muzzle device. Using the guidelines for countable parts, that gives me 16 parts. In order to be compliant, I must have at least 6 US-made parts in my rifle. My rifle has the following US parts:
Trigger, Hammer, Disconnector, Compensator (muzzle device), Gas piston, magazine floor plate and magazine follower. That gives me 6 parts and means I am complying with the law.

You'll notice that I broke my own rule about using magazine parts. That's because the buttstock and pistol grip I ordered turned out to be made in Israel, so they do not count as compliance parts. Unfortunately, they are so well-made and comfortable that I don't want to replace them! I also had the stock Saiga handguard customized, so it doesn't count for my compliance either.

On my Saiga shotgun, I had 14 countable parts. In order to meet compliance, I installed the following US-made parts:
Hammer, trigger, disconnector, buttstock, pistol grip, external choke (muzzle device), US-made magazines.

That gives me a total of 9 US-parts -- and I only need 4. So while I have US mags to use, I'm not limited to them like I am with my Saiga rifle.

Special Saiga Considerations

The Saiga rifle is imported in a sporter configuration and thus is not subject to 922R compliance. That is....until you decide you want to use high capacity magazines! If you plan on doing a full AK conversion, then there's generally no problem -- the conversion parts (fire control group, buttstock, pistol grip) usually take care of compliance.

Some people, though, want to keep the sporter configuration but use high caps - and that takes a little more creativity. There are 14 countable parts in the Saiga sporter (no pistol grip or muzzle device).

Quick compliance parts include:
- Handguard: TAPCO makes an AK-specific, Galil-style handguard (1 compliance part)
- Gas piston: US-made gas piston (either AK 47 or AK 74) (1 compliance part)
- Trigger: You can modify a TAPCO G2 trigger to work in the stock Saiga firecontrol group (requires grinding and cuttting) (1 compliance part)
- Hammer: You can install a TAPCO G2 hammer in the stock FCG (1 compliance part)
- Magazines: Complete US made mags (like ProMag or Thermold) or US followers and/or floor plates in foreign magazine bodies (1-3 compliance parts)

Another popular "quasi conversion" is to use the ACE Saiga receiver block/pistol grip combo, like this (http://www.riflestocks.com/SaigaAK.htm). This gives you an AK-like grip/buttstock without having to move the FCG. Adding the pistol grip ups your parts count to 15. Since ACE equipment is US-made, the buttstock and pistol grip each count as 1 part. That means you only need three more (from the list above) to be compliant.

Be aware that there is also a Russian-made version of the same block/grip combo. You can use it, but you then have to find 5 replacement parts to be compliant.

There are also two kinds of Surefire magazines designed for the Saiga rifle. There are all-plastic ones that are US-made and count for compliance. The older versions are metal bodies, and although Surefire is a US company, the magazines use foreign parts and do not count for 922R compliance!

[Hero Gear]

I didn't say he can do it, I was asking why couldn't he.

He cant because your Federal Government says he cant. :tinfoil:

[nsnate02]

It wouldn't cost much to swap stocks and add grips, so that may be the way to go. To SBR it would be cost prohibitive just for the barrel change. is that what i am hearing?

[Hero Gear]

It wouldn't cost much to swap stocks and add grips, so that may be the way to go. To SBR it would be cost prohibitive just for the barrel change. is that what i am hearing?

Stocks and grips can be had for around 100 bucks on the web.
There are fake short barrels that are available for 20-30 bucks.

As you (may) know, that those barrels are designed to be very easy to change. There is a detent that you push, and then the indexed barrel nut is screwed off to change the barrel.

When the Norinco 320s were imported, they did a small spot weld to keep the barrel nut from turning.
You will need to file/grind on this to allow the nut to spin.
Once you get the barrel off, you can take some time and clean up your work with a file.

[nsnate02]

Now how would "they" ever know if it was originally a pistol or rifle? I know AR's have to be registered as such, but is this something that's done when it's imported or just the honor system?

............Other than reading this thread of course!:D

[jwp]

Because they 'know' when it's imported.

[tngunman]

Illegal! You cannot alter it into a pistol ever. Once a rifle always a rifle.

[nsnate02]

well, after some more research on the UZI, it is going to run around $250 for compliance parts and the SBR is $200. I got the grips and stock for less than $40 all together, so for the cost it makes more sense to SBR it an not worry about anything else.

[Magiccarpetrides]

So do tell what made you stray from the combat shotgun and get into all things UZI?

[nsnate02]

Just always wanted one. Plus I can afford to shoot 9mm and can take it to most pistol ranges as well. I really like the Saiga 12, I just don't seem myself shooting as much as she deserves.

[Magiccarpetrides]

Well thats a reasonable arguement...i have always been an UZI fan too.

[nsnate02]

Plus I got a certain affection for the tools that changed history. AK's and Uzi's definitely fit that bill.