TGO as a Political Organization

[Marswolf]

Thought I'd go ahead and start a thread about whether TGO should be more than a set of forums.

First thing, I'm guessing that Tungsten holds the rights to the name, so it would be up to him to decide if he wanted such a group set up.

Since we are already having get-togethers and talking about working to get shooting ranges reopened, it looks like we have some common interest in actually having a group.

Maybe we should just be a set of loose-knit friends who do unofficial get-togethers. Maybe we might do more.

Lots of questions and lots of challenges if we become more than we are now. I'll save the rest of my thoughts for comments.

[0down]

I Started a thread in Off-Topic about a public range in Memphis that is closed. The thread drifted when a member had the idea to start a formal organization to lobby for better gun laws. You can read the original thread here:

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=444

I thought is was a good idea. It was suggested that maybe the Virginia Civil Defense League could be used as a model. If such a group were to form, what mission would you like to see? What objectives do you see at both the local and state level? How would it be organized?

[Hornet Handler]

I have merge threads to avoid any confusion

[Len]

Marswolf took the words right out of my mouth. A few points to ponder:

1) If political advocacy is part of the idea, the TN Firearms Association does that already. Would it be better to pool our resources and be more active in TFA? Or maybe not.

2) If the idea is more of a state-wide "gun club" with an activist agenda (getting ranges opened, having shoots, etc...) then I wonder if the NRA might be of some use in helping get organized. We might contact their state field rep and get his views. Or again, maybe not. No need to get too complicated.

3) How much organization is necessary/desirable? Can we be an effective group of people just with the disucssion board, or do we need more. Do we need to meet in person? Do we need to officially organize as some sort of entity? (501 C3 or some such?)

4) What would be our mission? goals? Can we "advertsie" beyond the 'net? (We should have a poster at every gun shop & range in the state!)

5) There are well over 200 members of TGO now. But how many of them are active enough to want to take the next step? How many do we need to reach a "critical mass" where stuff actually gets done? (I'm on the Executive Committee of my local county Democratic Party, which has about 425 members, but only a couple dozen of those people actually do the work, and only 30-100 show up at the meetings.)

All that being said I'm all for it and willing to help in any way I can.

[Len]

Here is the website for the VA group: http://www.vcdl.org/
Seems like they are much like TFA (http://www.tennesseefirearms.com/) but with a more activist/fun twist.
I'd personally like to see an organization that does the following things:
1) Advocate for/against specific legislation OR work to support TFA's efforts in this area. No need to duplicate effort, split resources, etc.
2) Serve as a state-wide club (organizing training, local shoots, road trips to Knob Creek, new ranges, etc)
3) Continue/expand this forum
4) Hold an annual convention/meeting
5) Advocate and build interest in the shooting sports & safe & effective firearms use (probably excluding hunting since there already is an organization that does that)
6) Serve as a resource for TN gun owners (product reviews, list of places that allow/dont allow carry, who's got ammo on sale, etc.)
7) Whatever everyone else wants to do.

But hey, this is Tungsten's baby. Let's hear what he/she has to say!

I Started a thread in Off-Topic about a public range in Memphis that is closed. The thread drifted when a member had the idea to start a formal organization to lobby for better gun laws. You can read the original thread here:

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=444

I thought is was a good idea. It was suggested that maybe the Virginia Civil Defense League could be used as a model. If such a group were to form, what mission would you like to see? What objectives do you see at both the local and state level? How would it be organized?

[Hornet Handler]

But hey, this is Tungsten's baby. Let's hear what he/she has to say!


:biglol: :biglol:

That would be he, he would be him.

[saintsfanbrian]

Well, I already brought up possibly opening up a "Memphis/West TN" chapter of this under the Shelby County Range question. I am at home today with sick wife and kids so the calling will have to wait until tomorrow.

Anyway, whether to form a political group or not is a good question. Something I have considered for a while is getting in to "politics" where I know I can do the most good.

That being said, Where or Where is our Tungsten tonight with his views on the subject.

[Tungsten]

Here are my thoughts...

I considered this as a possible course to take when Hornet Handler and I were coming up with the idea for Tennessee Gun Owners, but ultimately I decided that we should probably not become or tie ourselves to any particular political group. By remaining a free agent of sorts, we afford ourselves a lot of lateral movement.

That said, I think it is great for folks to get involved politically and as a group we should encourage each other to do so. We have a great group in the Tennessee Firearms Association which has done a lot for firearms owners in this state. They already have the infrastructure to handle the legal / political aspects and they do a good job of it. It would be a shame not to pour support into that organization.

Likewise we also have the NRA-ILA and the same can be said of them too.

I don't know if we will ever see a time when, politically speaking, there are too many cooks in the pro-2nd Amendment kitchen, but I do think that we might make far better use of our individual resources if we band together with the existing organizations.

Just my $0.02 on the matter and certainly not to be taken as words chiseled into stone. I'd welcome further discussion on this and will watch, read and ponder from the sidelines. :)

[Marswolf]

I looked into TFA several years ago and asked around the local gun shops to see what they thought of them. Main reaction I got was a blank stare. The few other reactions were along the lines of, "it's a lawyer in Nashville who takes your money." It was meant as a pejorative.

Not commenting on the truth or falsity of the last comment, but the group is not well know even among gun folks. Or at least they aren't know around here.

I decided to not join when John couldn't find time to arrange for a convention. That's not to say he/they don't do their part. But I've been working with politicians since I was in college back in the Pleistocene. You get more done with constituents calling them than hiring a lobbyist. From what I seen, the TFA is one paid lobbyist, a few dedicated helpers, and a few scattered chapters that get together for supper and a speech. I'm not saying that is bad. I occasionally consider driving the hour+ down to Morristown for one of their meetings. But except for a lot of bitching on their board and Harris wandering around the legislative offices once a year, I don't see a flurry of activity. Maybe that's because I'm over here in the boonies and don't see the pandemonium at TFA.

My feeling is we let them do their thing, while TGO would be more of a grassroots local emphasis group. We largely agree on the problems as individual members. I think we also see the same legislative solutions. I've started a number of groups. Generally headed them until I insisted someone else take over. But you have to have local meetings/get-togethers/whatever. Just being a member of a group 200 miles away doesn't keep membership and group focus.

You have to get together as friends and then have the leadership to get the members to actually write a letter or call the legislators. Become know as a group that has fun but has a purpose too and you gain members. Gain members and legislators start paying attention. They show up at the annual picnic and ask for your vote. They actually pay attention to you.

So...my suggestions if we want to do this:

I'd start with the get-togethers, as in the Memphis thing this past weekend.

Make the emphasis on family fun. Shooting perhaps, a meal, a short non-boring meeting about what needs to be done locally and around the state. As a note, the local Civil War Roundtable grew like wildfire when they met at a local cafeteria on a regular schedule. The officers started screwing around with the schedule and quit having a dinner meeting (actually the cafeteria got tired of them changing dates). I don't even know if they still meet. Pick a reasonable day and time and stay with it. You will never find a time that suits everyone. Don't change it unless is almost a unanimous decision. I'll guarantee you piss off one of your hardest working members.

Keep the dues so low even your spouse won't complain.

Don't push membership in other groups. (Don't create divisions where none are needed.) TFA is fine, so is NRA, GOA, Mickey Mouse-Gun-A but such affiliations are probably not going to get bills through the Tennessee House. And how much bitching do you hear about these other groups on the gun boards?

Build a positive attitude with the public and cultivate relationships with the media. The public face needs to be friendly and smart. No one likes a smart-ass. I think the proper image is as good solid citizens working to protect their family and themselves as they also help educate the public.

Enough for now. Comments?

[saintsfanbrian]

Mars,

My original intent of a local TGO group was to do basically what you were talking about. Start off with getting together to go shooting. Just the guys and girls that are in to shooting at first. Eventually, after a couple of range and lunch (or dinner) outings (it's a great thing that our local range has a diner in it) and feeling each others social standards out then get the families together.

I know that I have 2 small children and Glock has a couple of rugrats running around. It would be fun to get them together in the grass and just let them be kids. I know my oldest (2 1/2 year old) loves to play with other kids.

I would like to see a group of us West Tennesseeans and more specifically Memphians and Shelby Countians band together to get the firing range re-opened at Shelby farms or get them to allow the public access to the Shelby County Sheriff's Office range which is basically across the street and backs up to the wolf river.

As for the TFA, I have looked around a bit and I don't see where the local Memphis chapter is really doing anything. Do I want to go all political with the TGO thing? Not to start off with. Get a bunch of fellow gun nuts together and go shooting. At public ranges/private land, doesn't really matter so long as everyone is safe.

[Marswolf]

It's really easy to get bad "leadership" and screw up a good thing. All it takes is one jerk-off who thinks he knows everything, makes pronouncements from on high, and calls you an idiot if you disagree with him.

I think the emphasis needs to be on a fun get-together and use that to provide positive input into the political process - not have a political group that also has get-togethers. Whether that is under the TGO label or it's TGO forum members who do it separately makes little difference. The board just makes a nice place to plan.

[saintsfanbrian]

;) enough said.


Taking a quick perusal of their (TFA's) site, I noticed that it is not maintained on a regular basis. I am not saying they are a bad organization, but though it is a State issue, one would think that they would be talking about the HR1022 that is in congress right now and try to "rally the troops" to contact their representative in order to express their view on this important bill.

Just my 2 cents worth on the issue. If Tungsten would prefer that we not use the Tennessee Gun Owners name, well I am sure that we are resourceful enough to come up with a new name. For the Memphis Chapter, I was thinking Mid-South Marksmen to help draw people from West Memphis, Desoto County and this side of the state. Anyone interested in starting this group of people for get togethers etc, send me a PM and we can start discussions for moving forward with it.

[Len]

Mars and Saints:
Great ideas and an insightful discussion on the role of TGO vs TFA. Yes, TFA is pretty much just John running around capitol hill, so there is a void to be filled with a kind of organization that has been discussed. I'm in, and would love to start a middle TN chapter.
Talking about shooting is fun. Actually DOING shooting is even more fun!
-Len

[Punisher84]

I am up for anything!

[Marswolf]

You know, there are some disadvantages to having "gun" in the name of the organization. It makes you an easier target. The Virginia Civil Defense League name expands the scope of the organization beyond just guns.

Bear in mind that any formal group needs to be incorporated for liability reasons. Just something to think about.

[Len]

Probably true. The VA org's name to me has that unfortunate "crazy militia group" connotation to me. I know they are not, but there is much in a name.
"Tennessee Shooting Sports Association/League" ???

Incorporation is fairly easy and inexpensive. I know (unfortunately???) many lawyers who are willing and able.



You know, there are some disadvantages to having "gun" in the name of the organization. It makes you an easier target. The Virginia Civil Defense League name expands the scope of the organization beyond just guns.

Bear in mind that any formal group needs to be incorporated for liability reasons. Just something to think about.

[Marswolf]

Yeah, I'm not that crazy about the VCDL name either. Also their current leadership sometimes sounds a bit off-the-wall too supporting the nutso gun lovers image. The ACLU sounds like a patriot's organization, even if it's the opposite. You gotta have a hook, to get members, but keeping the purpose of the group from being explicitly spelled out helps get things done.

An "American values defense" organization can probably get more media coverage than a "Second Amendment defenders" association.

[molonlabetn]

Howabout

Tennesseans for the Individual Prevention of Violent Crimes

(I know... it's kinda long...)

[Marswolf]

The motto can be, "Plug the gap - Plug the perp!" :shake:

[Len]

I know I'm gonna get hounded on this, but what the heck...
I think the ACLU IS a patriotic organization. Nothing wrong with supporting the other 9 amendments in the Bill of Rights.:dropjaw:
Let the flames begin...

[Hornet Handler]

I know I'm gonna get hounded on this, but what the heck...
I think the ACLU IS a patriotic organization. Nothing wrong with supporting the other 9 amendments in the Bill of Rights.:dropjaw:
Let the flames begin...
Do you know how the ACLU got started?


They started as the US Communist party. How about that cup of borsched comrad

[Marswolf]

You know, some years ago the ACLU actually did sometimes support civil liberty. They defended stuff like carrying the Confederate flag and gun rights. Unfortunately these days they are a bit selective about whose rights they will support. It has to fit their agenda.

The essence of civil liberty is that unpopular ideas must be allowed to be heard and lived if it doesn't physically harm someone else.

[Len]

Well said:
"The essence of civil liberty is that unpopular ideas must be allowed to be heard and lived if it doesn't physically harm someone else."

[saintsfanbrian]

How about the TCLG - Tennessee Civil Liberties Group. Not to be confused with a union as most of those in my opinion are pseudo terrorist groups that stranglehold business owners.

[macho999]

I had no idea anything went on in Morristown. Mr. Wolf holler at me if you head to Mo-town and we can hit that dinner and I'll let you ride in my new truck. Maybe even drive it some if you promise to be safe.

I'm on the fence as far as being a political organization. It's a little early I would think. Maybe on the local level at first. You need someone who would have the time to devote to schmoozing with local politicians and the speaking skills and professional appearance to do any good. Probably someone who is retired or works a 9-5 would have time. Compare Charlton Heston to Sandy Froman.

Seems like a good idea to set up some meet and greets for the members in the areas where we have a lot of people, Tri-cities, Knoxville area, Nashville area, Memphis and go from there. If you can't get 30 or more people in Knoxville to do something I think it's too early.

We could have a meet and greet for Claiborne, Campbell, Hancock, and Union Counties and it'd just be me sitting around by myself.

[Marswolf]

I think you are right Macho. We probably need to begin a as social thing and see where it heads from there.

Here's the info on the TFA meeting in Morristown:

The March meeting of the Tennessee Firearms Association Lakeway Chapter will be held on Tuesday evening, the 20th of March, 2007

Our guest speaker will be Senior Special Agent John Witsell from the East Tennessee office Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) agency and present an overview of ICE’s mission and duties.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++
***Our new meeting place is the Shoneys Family Restaurant at 1933 West Andrew Johnson Highway (Hwy 11E), Morristown TN. *** This restaurant is located 1/2 block east of the West Andrew Johnson highway (Hwy 11E) and Morris Blvd intersection, more or less across from the Home Depot. There is a large, highly visible sign in front along with plenty of parking space. A pre-meeting social hour is from 6 PM to 7 PM during which you may want to eat dinner. The meeting will begin promptly at 7 PM and end at 8 PM. Opportunity will be given to ask questions related to the topic.

Membership is not required - gun owners, 2nd Amendment supporters, and interested public are urged to attend. For more information contact Bill Kaylor 423 586 9121/email w9dsm@charter.net or Tim Nunan 423-586-8459/email bentcreek@outdrs.net.
_________________
Tim Nunan
TFA/NRA Lifemember

[macho999]

Are you going down there? I get back from KY to the Gap around 5pm. Mo-town is 30-45 minutes but maybe longer with 5pm traffic and all that construction between here and there.

Let me know something, that's a good little trip for you. What is it about 2 hours?

[Marswolf]

Are you going down there?

Probably not. It's a bit more than an hour drive each way for me Mostly Interstate. It's the drive across town that's a pain. I've met Witsell and know what ICE does (and often doesn't do :D ).

[molonlabetn]

The closest I'll get to come, is Knoxville during the 1st/2nd full weekend in April... but that's the wrong date, and the wrong city.

Oh well.

[jackdog]

Yeah they seem to be real patriotic to Mexico as of late.
But I agree that we should support the bill of rights in total.
That's one of the things that really amazes me that people dont understand that if the government or a group is allowed to attack the 2nd ammendment then there is nothing to stop them from attacking all of them.
Lets see, we now have free speech zones
and the patriot Act is pure B.S.
To put it mildly, I love my counrty, but hate my government.

Jackdog

[jackdog]

So far I've heard some pretty good thoughts on this.
Saints I kinda like Tennessee Civil Liberties Group as a name. But if at some point we do go political with this idea, maybe having gun in the name can have some positives. Hey, should we be ashamed of who we are what we like to do and what we believe in. Besides As far as I'm concerned thats one of the major problems with this counrty. Everyone bends over back wards to be politically correct. Another thought is this. TGO is a great group and it's expanding pretty fast, new members all the time. Now not everyone will want to participate in this idea, but some will and you never know who will be in the new membership or what they bring to the table. Just an old fart thinking out loud.

Jackdog

[jackdog]

last one for a while. Count me in this thing

Jackdog

[jackdog]

Lets give the rest of the group a chance to publish thier thoughts. After that I think we form a commitee to sit down and discuss our goals. then publish what we think we should do, and let the other members weigh in on it. Mars really glad you started this thread
Jackdog

[Len]

Count me in.
Jackdog seems like a guy after my own heart:

But I agree that we should support the bill of rights in total.
That's one of the things that really amazes me that people dont understand that if the government or a group is allowed to attack the 2nd ammendment then there is nothing to stop them from attacking all of them.
Lets see, we now have free speech zones
and the patriot Act is pure B.S.
A committee to jump start things is probably a good way to start once a decision is made. I'm glad to help. I have always been impressed with the comraderie (I seriously doubt that is spelled correctly...) of people in our sport/hobby/industry. Anything that builds on that is a good thing IMHO.
-Len

[Marswolf]

I have always been impressed with the comraderie (I seriously doubt that is spelled correctly...)
[/I]

You are correct - you are wrong. :D

Firefox has a built in spell checker, so you aren't using that. For IE, there is a good free spell checker at http://www.iespell.com/. Since I use both browsers, I use both spull chunkers. :confused:

We now return you to the topic....

[db99wj]

You are correct - you are wrong. :D

Firefox has a built in spell checker, so you aren't using that. For IE, there is a good free spell checker at http://www.iespell.com/. Since I use both browsers, I use both spull chunkers. :confused:

We now return you to the topic....

If you have the Google toolbar it has a spell checker as well.

[Len]

Thanks guys. Iespell now installed and running.
(The proper spelling is "camaraderie.")

[RandyC]

Personally I'm not big on joining groups, paying dues, secret handshakes or whatever.

Our potential for rapid growth lies within this open forum of like minded individuals. Power is in the numbers. A big rowdy bunch of irregulars flooding our politicians with e-mails and phone calls will, I believe, do more good than a small group with a pretty letterhead.

Sure we can get together, organize shoots, whatever we want. We can call the TFA and say, "Hey, you want some big numbers backing you up on such and such legislation? Come to the forum and state your case. We'll help you flood those legislators."

No meetings, no branch offices. Our meetings are here, every day, and everyone who wants can attend.

There had been some very good ideas expressed but when it comes to influencing our representatives for change I think bigger is better.