Chicago area shootings

[darkstar]

So some P.O.S shot and killed 5 women in a Chicago area strip mall earlier today http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/02/02/store.shooting/index.html

A damn shame that the state of Illinois denies it's citizens from legally carrying. Had someone been carrying this may have had a different outcome :(

[molonlabetn]

These things consistently happen in places which prohibit firearms. It's sad that so many people mistakenly believe they are less likely to be a victim if they are defenceless.

This is very sad.

[Steelharp]

This must be a fairy tale. People aren't allowed to carry guns in Illinois. Therefore, this couldn't have happened. :mad:

[Marswolf]

Yep, Chicago is a great place if you want to rob someone.

[jackdog]

I think the victims families should sue the store, Cook county and the state of Illinois, for not allowing people the right to defend themselves. I also think (not that this would ever happen that All federal funds should be pulled from Illinois, until they honor the US constitution specifically the second Ammendment.

[strickj]

maybe we should move chicago to california and sale california

[towerclimber37]

I like what Jackdog said. it makes sense...not that it'll ever happen. there are so many folks in chicago that have a stranglehold on Illinois politics...much like niafart has on our state. how that bottomfeeder makes it every election year, I can't figure.

[supergus]

If you guys were in that situation, and were legally carrying, when would you shoot the BG? As soon as his weapon was visible? Or when he fired the first shot? I'm looking at this from a legal standpoint. What would be the most likely to stand up in court in favor of you and not the BG?

[TNDixieGirl]

If you guys were in that situation, and were legally carrying, when would you shoot the BG? As soon as his weapon was visible? Or when he fired the first shot? I'm looking at this from a legal standpoint. What would be the most likely to stand up in court in favor of you and not the BG?
As soon as I see his weapon, I'm in fear for my life.

[Marswolf]

It would depend on whether I thought the guy was about to shoot me. While I can legally shoot someone to prevent serious harm or death to another person, I'm not generally inclined to do that, especially if they are 21 or over. The other folks being shot at have the same opportunity to protect themselves that I do. If they forgo that opportunity, I feel no moral compunction to come to their aid.

But if the BG starts firing at random, I would regard myself to be in jeopardy and take him out.

[towerclimber37]

while I agree with Mars on quite a few things..on this, I would have to say that when he began shooting at random, I would have to do my best to kill him/her.
The mere sight of a firearm in someone's hands doesn't bother me. the discharge of a firearm would.

[nj.piney]

legally correct answer dixie, my thought also.

[Fallguy]

The "legally" correct answer is "At whatever point you were 'reasonably' in fear of your life or the life of third person".

Now if you are talking about after you have seen this person shooting up another part of the mall, and you shoot him at the mere sight of the gun, that could be argued as reasonable.

But just shooting someone because they have a gun visable, not knowing if this was the guy doing the shooting, or whether it could be another legally armed citizen getting ready to engage. then unless it is pointed at you or someone else, that could be a harder argument. ...and if no shots have been fired at all yet, why would you shoot someone for just having a gun? ..until it was aimed at somebody at least.

[nj.piney]

fallguy,i sit corrected.

[TNDixieGirl]

The question was phrased as when would I shoot the bad guy? So on the premise we already know who the bad guy is, you still have my answer.

[jackdog]

he pulls a gun and does not identify himself as LEo, sorry I'm gonna draw and fire, this guy appears to be a nut case willing to me and everyone else, yup me fears for me little A**.

[Mike.357]

If you were in Chicago and used a handgun I am guessing you would be in a deep pile of doo-doo. I doubt it would matter if you were taking out some POS who been shooting in a mall, they would still prosecute you.

I am with Mar's on this. I feel no need to start shooting when they aren't shooting at me or my loved one's.

[bkelm18]

Did this occur within or outside Chicago city limits? Handguns are only banned within the city limits. In either event, I'm not a cold, heartless bastard, so I would try and end the BG's life as soon as possible after he starts firing at people whether or not he is an immediate threat to myself. Just because others have made the choice not to carry doesn't mean they deserve to die for it.

[TNDixieGirl]

I couldn't live with myself if I knew I was able to save a person standing near me and chose not to. That person I try to help may be your mother, or your 3 yr old child standing beside your wife thats scared to carry a gun. No, I won't look the other way.

[Fallguy]

The question was phrased as when would I shoot the bad guy? So on the premise we already know who the bad guy is, you still have my answer.

I admit I didn't word my post exactly the way I wanted and not all of it was geared towards this specific incident. You are correct if you know it a BG, I guess I meant the question, as posted, was a little flawed...How would you know it is a BG till he commits some overt act? Granted drawing a gun in certain enviroments and in certain ways could be an act that deems a response.

As some have posted some of this depends on if we are talking about in Chicago, in IL or in TN. In TN I hope no one would shoot someone just because they saw a gun on someone.

I too don't think I could just stand by and watch harm come to others if I felt there was anyway I could intervine.

[DaveTN]

I'm looking at this from a legal standpoint. What would be the most likely to stand up in court in favor of you and not the BG?
Carrying and using a firearm carries with it a tremendous about of responsibility and liability. There is no simple answer. In all states that I am aware of you are justified in the use of deadly force if a “reasonable person” (that means a jury) feels that you or someone else was in danger of death or great bodily harm.

In every state you have the possibility of encountering a Cop, Federal Agent, or a carry permit holder reacting to something that you may not be able to see. In a split second you will have to make a decision to fire. That decision will be arm chair quarterbacked by people that have all the time in the world to decide what you should have done. If a bad guy gets shot; you are probably okay. If an innocent gets shot; life as you know it is over.

[DaveTN]

I think the victims families should sue the store, Cook county and the state of Illinois, for not allowing people the right to defend themselves. I also think (not that this would ever happen that All federal funds should be pulled from Illinois, until they honor the US constitution specifically the second Ammendment.
Does that apply to Tennessee also? Because a citizen in Illinois has exactly the same right to carry as a citizen in Tennessee…. None.

Illinois and Tennessee are in total agreement on the 2nd amendment. It is not an individual right. Tennessee is willing to sell you the privilege; Illinois is not.

[molonlabetn]

Does that apply to Tennessee also? Because a citizen in Illinois has exactly the same right to carry as a citizen in Tennessee…. None.

Illinois and Tennessee are in total agreement on the 2nd amendment. It is not an individual right. Tennessee is willing to sell you the privilege; Illinois is not.

Not quite.

Tennessee sells a permit to leave one's property. There is no question of a right to own firearms at the state level.

Illinois sells a permit to own, period.

[HexHead]

I'm sorry but I don't feel sorry for these victims or their families. They are old enough to vote and they keep voting for politicians like Obama that want to keep them from being able to protect themselves. They made their bed.

[TNDixieGirl]

You know for fact which politicians these 5 victims voted for??????????? Unbelievable.

You do realize that we have a guy named Naifeh that keeps blocking everything gun-related that comes his way? I never voted for the guy, but he still calls the shots.

[supergus]

Sorry if my question was unclear. What I meant was, if you were in the same situation, AND in a state where you were legally allowed to carry, like TN. The guy was a robber, so he probably pulled a weapon first, and then demanded money. Would you shoot him as soon as he pulled his gun, or as soon as he demanded money AFTER showing his weapon?

[Fallguy]

You know for fact which politicians these 5 victims voted for??????????? Unbelievable.

You do realize that we have a guy named Naifeh that keeps blocking everything gun-related that comes his way? I never voted for the guy, but he still calls the shots.

Very, Very good point!!

[molonlabetn]

I'm sorry but I don't feel sorry for these victims or their families. They are old enough to vote and they keep voting for politicians like Obama that want to keep them from being able to protect themselves. They made their bed.

No apologies necessary, and there is no requirement to sympathize with victims.

It should be clarified, however, that apathy does not deserve such a harsh punishment... moreover, this event should not be implied to be punishment, it is simply a very sad result of misplaced trust and priorities. These people, and their families, are most certainly not to blame for the actions of a criminal.

[DaveTN]

Sorry if my question was unclear. What I meant was, if you were in the same situation, AND in a state where you were legally allowed to carry, like TN. The guy was a robber, so he probably pulled a weapon first, and then demanded money. Would you shoot him as soon as he pulled his gun, or as soon as he demanded money AFTER showing his weapon?
Again… no pat answer. If all he is doing is committing an armed robbery, I’m not starting a fire fight. Would you like me to pull a weapon while someone was pointing a gun at you?
Criminally you are good at the point a reasonable person would believe that anyone’s life is in danger. Him pulling a gun doesn’t get you there; him pulling a gun and threatening someone with it does.

[strickj]

me,im not going to draw attention to myself by drawing my gun if someone is being robbed,but the second he looks at me or a loved one and wants something hes a dead robber.
now in the case like the o'charlies robbery where the bg shoots someone,then at that point if i can get a shot i would.