Glock ownership??? [Archive] - Tennessee Gun Owners

jgrauman

03-12-2007, 03:40 AM

i haven't owned many guns, but don't most if not all manuals say not to shoot reloads?? i would say that it's just a liability issue so that there is no fault to the manufacuter if something like this happens. i had a guy that works for my range that told me i should never shoot WWB from walmart (walmart only) then he showed me his glock 19 barrel that was obviously a victim of a squib that didn't exit, then followed up with another round. IMHO that could happen with ANY factory ammo. the machines that make those rounds are made by humans and to me that means they can make mistakes as well.

Ghostrider

03-12-2007, 03:52 AM

While quality control can fail in any factory and with any product, it appears that American has more problems when mixed with a glock than most.

Anyone have any info on how this ammo mixes with other manufacturers weapons? :popcorn:

DEIMOS

03-12-2007, 01:54 PM

That sort of thing is why I'm afraid to get into reloading. I'll stick with WWB and Cor-Bon/Federal for now

Reloading is an exact sience. You have to know WTF you are doing. Close enough doesn't cut it. I have had squibs and hot loads in the past. A great learning experience if you and/or your gun survives, but I don't suggest having those experiences to learn from. I started loading for my .357 revolver, then moved to my SW.40. A revolver seems to be more forgiving of **** ups.

Get training from someone who knows the ropes. Spend on good reloading gear, take your time and do it right the first time. I think Glock says no reloads because some peoples reloads are of questionable quality. I don't think running Black Hill reloads would be a concern.
Just my .02
Jason

Marswolf

03-12-2007, 02:07 PM

There are a lot of handgun manuals that tell you to not use reloads. I suspect it's for liability reasons and because a lot of people really don't know how to properly check their brass and reload properly. Because of the unsupported part of the chamber, that's particularly important in a Glock.

But American Ammunition is junk. I bought a case of it a couple of years ago just for sustained fire practice. I didn't expect it to be accurate. Had a number of rounds that would not allow my USP 40 to go into battery and fire. The USP will absolutely not fire in that condition. You can't generally tell by looking at the rounds which ones are bad. Just don't buy it.

GlocKingTN

03-13-2007, 12:16 AM

Im also guessing that alot of the gun makers dont want you shooting reloads because of price too. They dont want you spending $10 when you could be spending $20 or more. And probly in one way or another, that pricing affects their business as well. My .02 as well!

jackdog

03-13-2007, 05:57 AM

Any fire arm made can have the dreaded Kaboom.
Most often the cause is an ammo problem not the fire arm. Either from a ammo manufacture that had a problem, and this is pretty rare I would think,
Or bad reloads. If the glock UM is followed I think the odds of this would be pretty rare. Hey I will stick with my glocks.
Jackdog

Marswolf

03-13-2007, 12:51 PM

Hey I will stick with my glocks.

Yeah, most people will.... [sigh] :D

GhostDog

03-13-2007, 12:53 PM

When I was shooting a lot of 45ACP, I reloaded. I was very careful and used a single stage press. It was slower but allowed for better QC. I didn't load "hot" loads (practice ammo only) and stuck to jacketed bullets. I never had a problem (knock on wood).
Glocks do not like lead bullets (nor do HKs if I'm not mistaken). It is due to the rifling they use. If you want to shoot lead, get an aftermarket barrel. The advantage is that the Glock and HK barrels will squeeze a little higher velocity out of the same ammo/load than conventional barrels. You have to take the good with the bad.
As some other posters noted, some ammo is just garbage. Don't use it in any gun you like.

GlocKingTN

03-13-2007, 10:08 PM

Yeah, most people will.... [sigh] :D
As will I!!!:up:

Marswolf

03-13-2007, 10:19 PM

Figured that. :biglol:

GlocKingTN

03-13-2007, 10:47 PM

Figured that. :biglol:
Until it breaks anyway!:D

TNG23C

03-14-2007, 01:04 AM

That's why i NEVER use reloads!!!

GlocKingTN

03-14-2007, 03:59 AM

That's why i NEVER use reloads!!!
I sorta hate to give them up though.....they are cheap to shoot!

db99wj

03-14-2007, 04:07 AM

If anyone wants to give away their Glocks, I will bite the "bullet" and take them...:p

GlocKingTN

03-14-2007, 04:18 AM

If anyone wants to give away their Glocks, I will bite the "bullet" and take them...:p
Now why would you take these old things?:D

Archimedes

03-15-2007, 04:21 AM

Reloading is an exact sience. You have to know WTF you are doing.

Because of the unsupported part of the chamber, that's particularly important in a Glock.

Indeed.

Weak/substandard brass + hot load + partially unsupported chamber = BAD!

~Archi

GlocKingTN

03-15-2007, 04:24 AM

Indeed.

Weak/substandard brass + hot load + partially unsupported chamber = BAD!

~Archi
I agree as of tonight. I went out the back door to shoot a round off to shut my dog up from barking, and after I shot, it jammed! POS wolf ammo!:down: :down:

Marswolf

03-15-2007, 12:51 PM

I agree as of tonight. I went out the back door to shoot a round off to shut my dog up from barking, and after I shot, it jammed! POS wolf ammo!:down: :down:

If you aim right, it permanently stops the barking. :eek:

Oddly enough yesterday I was telling someone how I've never had a problem with Wolf ammo except back in the old lacquer days with .223 stuff. Maybe you need a better gun. :devil:

GlocKingTN

03-15-2007, 10:00 PM

If you aim right, it permanently stops the barking. :eek:

Maybe you need a better gun. :devil:
That could be it!:p

That good aiming will stop the cash flow as well!

glockster157

03-26-2007, 05:00 AM

I have been reloading since 1981, I have loaded untold thousands of rounds without a major issue. I have made a few mistakes but nothing serious. I could probably quote you the Lyman reloading manual and I hung out with a lot of old timers that taught me a lot of the ropes.

As to American ammo, I have only had one kaboom with a glock and it was with a 2nd Gen Glock 22 and American Ammo. I don't think American is considered re-loads as they use new A-merc Brass. I did not realize they used copper plated bullets but I don't think that is what caused my kaboom as it was the first shot. I think the ammo got hot in the car and it just over pressured and blew out the web of the case.

Loaded247

03-26-2007, 02:51 PM

I've been reloading about as long as Glockster has....also without any major issues. When I first started I had some learning to do, and made some minor mistakes, but fortunately I learned, and learned well.

It's not 'reloaded' ammo that is bad, it is the QUALITY of the reloads that is an issue. In many of my older guns, MY ammo is the ONLY ammo that I will put in them...but my reloading operation is slow. I am extremely willing to put my ammo up against any factory ammo from a standpoint of accuracy and reliability.

That said, I have also seen some people reload, who give reloading a bad name. So, as I said, it's not reloading itself, but it is the quality, and the knowledge of the individual that is an issue. Firearms manufacturers cannot control that quality (of the reloads), so use of such generally voids the firearms manufacturers warranties...with good reason.

As to Glocks, we carry Glock 22s for duty use, and we have done so for several years...with NO issues...not a single one, and mind you, EACH of our officers fires a course on our range EVERY MONTH. On top of that, we also shoot a competition once a year with our G22s, and I have been to several training courses where the guns really got a workout...again, with no issues. I'm a Glock Armorer, but I have never had to work on my gun...cleaning is all I've ever had to do.

I also have a Glock 30 that I carry sometimes off duty. Personally, I think that Glocks are excellent firearms for the intended purpose.

In my mind, a handgun is a 'fighting tool'. A rifle or shotgun would actually be preferable, but we carry the handgun as a fighting tool because of it's convenience..it is easier to always have with us. With this in mind, if you find yourself faced with a serious threat of death or serious bodily injury, and you have to resort to your handgun for defense, the best method is to 'offensively' put holes in the SOB and cause enough damage to stop the SOBs actions, before the SOB does it to you. In other words, the purpose of the handgun is to shoot people....

Since that is the case, the fact of weather it is a Glock, 1911, H&K, Sig Sauer, S&W M&P, a revolver, etc., is of less importance. Lasers, lights, special finishes, special action jobs, etc., are also not of great importance. Either the handgun can reliably and accurately function, or it cannot, and either you have practiced smartly and diligently, or you have not...and you have either loaded the firearm with 'well selected' quality ammunition, or you have not...THOSE are the important things!

glockster157

03-26-2007, 03:14 PM

One other thing, as loaded pointed out, I did not fire a factory cartridge from any weapon I owned (and they were many, rifle/pistol/revolver) from 1982-83 to 1997. In 1997 I got involved in a shooting range and did start using some factory ammo again because of price and time. But during the time I was reloading religiously, I did not have any major problem and only a couple of minor things. Once I accidentally overcharged some 38 Specials. It cratered the primers when shot so I had to pull about 100 bullets. In my very early days when I did not have carbide dies and had to lube my pistol cases I had a couple of dead primers because of the grease accidentally getting into the primer area. Since carbide dies, Dillon 550's and a lot of practice, I have never had another such incident. I have no intention of buying ammo at 25-30 a hundred when I can roll it myself for half that. If time becomes an issue shoot more 9mm and buy that bulk.

One other thing, even though this is not as prevalent in pistol as it is in revolver and rife, once I find a load that works really well in a particular weapon, I can duplicate it at will. When you buy factory , you get ammo loaded with whatever powder, primer or bullet they could get the cheapest that week.

kckndrgn

03-30-2007, 09:12 PM

I'm gonna say, I shoot a glock 27, and I am reloading. I used to get the TN Cartridge reloads for my range sessions. I've also used Kinematics Research (another reload) and WWB (and various other new mfg) ammo.

As it has been said, if you reload and watch what you are doing, no watching TV while reloading, no talking to your spouse or significant other, but stay focused, you will have, IMHO, superior ammo.
I was amazed at the difference the first time I shot my reloads vs. TC loads. I'm hooked, in fact I'll be loading for my wifes 9mm, my 30-30 and my .223 soon.

For my first batch of 10 bullets, even though I am using a press that measures the powder load, I checked each one on a scale. I'm going to be shooting my first "big" batch of 150 reloads this weekend.

Stay safe,
Ryan

Marswolf

03-30-2007, 10:18 PM

Checking each load on a scale after it's loaded is a good safety check.

No reason reloads shouldn't work fine in a Glock. Just remember that you have less safety factor because of the chamber design. The extra weighing will just insure that you haven't gotten a double charge in a round.

GlocKingTN

03-30-2007, 10:42 PM

I have changed my mind on getting out of the Glock scene! Im getting another one! Today!

Marswolf

03-30-2007, 10:45 PM

Now...go take your Lithium. :D

GlocKingTN

03-30-2007, 11:05 PM

Now...go take your Lithium. :D
ok!!!!!:D

glockster157

03-30-2007, 11:29 PM

Roses are red
Violets are blue
I'm schizophrenic
And so am I :crazy:

molonlabetn

04-02-2007, 02:36 PM

I watched the Front-Sight Challenge yesterday... 4 contestants, all with Glocks. 3 of them made it to the 2nd round, which consisted of running a course while shooting at falling steel silhuettes.

2 of the Glocks puked 3 times (one misfired AND I think FTF, in seperate instances), the other FTE. Each contestant had 2 magazines... 3 failures in less than 60rd is not what I'd call 'reliable'.

Glock 'perfection'???

Well good grief... if they can't even run properly on TV... :rolleyes:

I was laughing so hard that I'm sure it was harmful to my health!

kckndrgn

04-02-2007, 02:52 PM

OK, Molon, do you know if these were stock glocks or were they modified for competition?

The ONLY FTF, FTE problems I have had were the times I've had someone load my mags and include spent brass in there. That is the only way that I have been able to work on clearing drills.

Now, for 1911's, I have seen first hand that some of them are so finicky about the ammo that it is not even funny. But, I'm not gonna like, I like the way 1911's shoot, and I may own one someday.

towerclimber37

04-02-2007, 02:57 PM

kckndrgn.
I know a fella who was on the rifle/pistol team for the Navy, has been a keen marksman all his life..all he shoots are 1911's. Hes' deadly with the dang things! (see post "the laws according to John MOSES browning").
I rarely see that pistol puke.
I sort of like em!

molonlabetn

04-02-2007, 03:03 PM

The 2 who had problems where cops using duty weapons. They weren't G34s or G17L versions, and they weren't ported.

The FTF wasn't a dummy round (since it did fire once in battery), and the FTE couldn't have been a dummy round. The misfire probably wasn't, since none of the other shooters had dummy rounds mixed in with their ammo.

I'm not saying Glocks aren't just fine weapons... But too many people over-hype their 'perfection'.

kckndrgn

04-02-2007, 03:09 PM

I'm not saying Glocks aren't just fine weapons... But too many people over-hype their 'perfection'.

True, I'll agree with you 100% on that. All things made by man are capable of malfunction at some point and time. What has to be done is proper maintenance and inspection of said mechanical devices.

GlocKingTN

04-02-2007, 10:41 PM

True, I'll agree with you 100% on that. All things made by man are capable of malfunction at some point and time. What has to be done is proper maintenance and inspection of said mechanical devices.
You just pretty much summed it up.....proper inspection and maintenance! Those 2 things can make anything work!:up:

db99wj

04-03-2007, 12:07 AM

You just pretty much summed it up.....proper inspection and maintenance! Those 2 things can make anything work!:up:

As long as you remember, proper inspection and maintenance of a turd......well it's still a turd!:D:rofl:

Just kidding!

Archimedes

04-03-2007, 12:18 AM

That's what we say in the detail business,,,,

If you polish a turd, you only end up with a shiny turd.

~Archi

LiLBucket

04-03-2007, 12:37 AM

Speaking of turds.....My dad always said on Sunday mornings, "You can't polish a turd" to me and my brothers. Wonder what he meant!!!

Archimedes

04-03-2007, 01:48 AM

Same thing, basically.

Heh, you want a shiny turd or a dull one?

NEITHER!

It's kinda like that classic movie...

'Well, we had a choice.... steak or fish.'

'Yes, yes, I remember, I had lasagna.'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlkrpxz7aCw

HAHAHAHAHHAHAH!

~Archi

P.S. -- ....AND DON'T CALL ME SHIRLEY!!!!

GlocKingTN

04-03-2007, 01:54 AM

As long as you remember, proper inspection and maintenance of a turd......well it's still a turd!:D:rofl:

Thats true I suppose.....:D

GhostDog

04-03-2007, 03:09 PM

I think all manufacturers say not to use reloads and I'm sure it's about liability.
Glocks/HKs don't like lead bullets because of the rifling. They lead up quickly which causes pressure spikes. As to the "copper washed" bullets, some have thicker jackets than others which goes back to the leading problem.
One poster said he used a single stage press, which is what I did and luckily never had any problems. I also stuck to jacketed bullets and didn't try to reinvent the wheel with hot loads. I think that any reloader who is careful and checks their reloads will not have any problems using THEIR OWN reloads. I would NOT shoot someone else's reloads.
I know a few people who were reloading 40S&W when it first came out. I was told that the brass was "fragile" but don't have any personal experience to back this up. 45ACP and 9MM brass will last a long time as long as it's not loaded hot, but it seems that 40S&W brass is not nearly as long lasting/strong. I don't know if that is still the case or not and, as I said, I don't have any PERSONAL experience to support this.
If you mix weak/worn out brass with a Glock chamber (which has less support than some other designs), you are looking for trouble. Don't blame the car if you drive it into a ditch.

Marswolf

04-03-2007, 04:18 PM

While I don't see a reason good reloads shouldn't work with a Glock, the swelling of the cases at what I'm reasoning is the unsupported part of the chamber is measurable.

I'd mark that area and make sure the rounds are loaded into the magazine with that part of the case up, away from the ramp.

GhostDog

04-03-2007, 04:43 PM

That is a good observation. Glocks do have more "generous" sized chambers in all calibers. All one has to do is compare fired brass to see this. Resizing the brass doesn't seem to affect 45ACP or 9MM nearly as much as it does 40S&W, but it does bear watching in all calibers.

Marswolf

04-03-2007, 04:56 PM

This is from a project I did a couple of years ago.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/180/406750469_55003c6257.jpg

The black area is the unsupported chamber area from a G30 (45 ACP).

molonlabetn

04-03-2007, 04:58 PM

The problem is, since .40s&w cases have less-than-ideal webbing (whereas 9mm, 10mm, and .357sig have thick case webbing), and .40s&w is still 'rated' by SAAMI for high pressures (35k psi). This means that the .40s&w in particular relies more heavily on the strength and support of the chamber which it is fired in, for support. In pistols which have a larger gap under the rear of the case, the brass will bulge (and in some cases, rupture). This is a similar reason why some magnum rifle cartridges should not be used in semi-automatic actions with short dwell, because their pressure rating was determined with the assumption that the case webbing would be reinforced by the chamber for the duration of powder deflagration.

.45acp is similar (minimal case webbing), but is designed for lower pressures, which enhance the safety factor, and are thus more forgiving of wide chamber tolerances than .40s&w, but less forgiving than 9mm, 10mm, and .357sig.

.45super is an upgraded .45acp case, with more optimum webbing. .40s&w has no such counterpart.

.45gap has a considerably more supportive case webbing than .40s&w or .45acp... surely intentional, considering the origin.

GhostDog

04-03-2007, 05:05 PM

Learning a lot here, thanks guys!
Also, molon, deflagration would be a good "Bill O'Reilly word".

Marswolf

04-03-2007, 05:08 PM

That like being deflowered?

molonlabetn

04-03-2007, 06:46 PM

Deflagration = controlled oxidization (burning), similar to the process in a car or aircraft engine during combustion. Has a 'soft' pressure curve.

Detonation = uncontrolled explosion, instantaneous and self-feeding combustion which causes an intense but short-lasting pressure spike.

note - those are my own definitions... The dictionary defenitions are:

- Deflagration: Vigorous burning with subsonic flame propagation

- Detonation: An exothermic chemical reaction which propagates through reactive material at supersonic speed.

Found at: http://www.fire.org.uk/glossary.htm (http://www.fire.org.uk/glossary.htm)

molonlabetn

04-03-2007, 06:53 PM

That like being deflowered?

almost... quite a bit hotter, but nearly as fast :p

ReefBlueCoupe

04-03-2007, 07:52 PM

Well I'm once again a Glock owner. I bought my old 36 back from my friend today. I can't wait to shoot it again!

molonlabetn

04-03-2007, 08:52 PM

Sweet... the prodigal pistol 'eh?

I have to admit, the G36 is the only Glock which seems to fit my hands... I would own one without remorse. (but, I have a reputation to uphold, as a Glock-hater... heh)

Humor aside, congrats on the reunion! There are a few I'd like to have back...

Marswolf

04-03-2007, 09:13 PM

Humor aside, congrats on the reunion! There are a few I'd like to have back...

Me too - but none of them are Glocks. :devil:

GlocKingTN

04-03-2007, 10:36 PM

Me too - but none of them are Glocks. :devil:
Thats just wrong Mars....:D

Archimedes

04-04-2007, 12:34 AM

Well I'm once again a Glock owner. I bought my old 36 back from my friend today. I can't wait to shoot it again!

Welcome back,
Your dreams were your ticket out.

Welcome back,
To that same old place that Mars laughed about. :D

Well the names have all changed since you hung around,
But those dreams have remained and they're turned around.

Who'd have thought they'd lead ya (Who'd have thought they'd lead ya)
Here where we need ya (Here where we need ya)

Yeah we tease him a lot cause we've hot him on the spot, welcome back,
Welcome back, welcome back, welcome back.

jfglock

04-10-2007, 06:00 AM

000000

molonlabetn

04-25-2007, 03:22 PM

Example of Glock 'perfection'

Enjoy! :popcorn:

http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/hhnj.html

Len

04-25-2007, 03:42 PM

This lack of professional customer service on the part of Glock really ticks me off. These folks dont sell toasters. If the product fails in the field, people might die. :down: :down: :down:

I am a died-in-the-wool Glock fan, and have never had any kind of failure to perform with a Glock that was not directly attributable to me, but this report from TGZ is just unacceptable.

It is just this sort of congnitive dissonance that gives me a headache so early in the morning...:mad: :mad: :mad:

Marswolf

04-25-2007, 06:45 PM

That's very odd. Glocks can stovepipe from limp-wristing in an inexperienced shooter's hand. But that obviously isn't the problem here. And Glocks are famous for feeding about any factory round you want to use.

While I don't like Glocks for other reasons, these problems are out of character for the Glock.

I might add that Dean Speir, who did the writeup, is the guy who got fired from his writing job with a magazine at the "request" of Gaston Glock for writing a less than glowing review of one of his handguns. Gaston just said he would pull all his ads if Speir wasn't fired.

I've talked to Speir. He's arrogant and annoying, but does give fair reviews and reasonable comments.

molonlabetn

04-25-2007, 06:56 PM

I don't doubt that the website or Mr. Speir are a bit biased... but that still does not refute the facts which are represented in the article.

Any make/model/individual firearm can fail... some are arguably more reliable than others. But, none are 'perfect'

I am wary of any company which shows such arrogance in its advertisement of 'perfection', yet provides lacking support of such for its products... even in these somewhat remote instances.

It should be noted, however, that the majority of failures pertaining to Glocks (even when they are possibly ammo-related), overwhelmingly occur in the .40s&w models. THAT is certainly a trend which would make me at least a bit hesitant to fully trust one of those specific models.

The Glocks which were fully designed around a specific cartridge (such as the 9mm, .45gap, and 10mm) seem to do just fine... I would have no qualms about owning one, if they didn't feel like gripping a 2x4, that is.

Marswolf

04-25-2007, 07:08 PM

I don't doubt that the website or Mr. Speir are a bit biased... but that still does not refute the facts which are represented in the article.

While I think that Speir probably feels a bit too much glee over Glock problems, I also have always found his reports to be substantiated well.

It should be noted, however, that the majority of failures pertaining to Glocks (even when they are possibly ammo-related), overwhelmingly occur in the .40s&w models. THAT is certainly a trend which would make me at least a bit hesitant to fully trust one of those specific models.

Could be. The G22 is a converted G17.

GlocKingTN

04-26-2007, 02:35 AM

Why the .40 cal?

GhostDog

04-26-2007, 05:33 AM

If you followed the back-and-forth between Mars and myself in other threads, you know already that I am a Glock fan. There are a few things that folks should know about the Glocks:
1) Glock factory barrels do not like lead bullets, don't use them.
2) Glocks have "generous" (large) chambers. This aids reliability and causes no problems in most calibers. 40S&W is the exception to this. Due to the nature of the caliber (not the most robust brass) and the fact that Glock factory barrels do not fully support the chamber, there have been problems in 40S&W Glock pistols (more than other makes). Mostly these problems were ammo related (especially reloads) but not in all cases.
These are the characteristics of the pistols. Choose to use the guns or choose not to, but don't blame the gun if you knowingly ignore these characteristics.
Having said that, I will not defend Glock when it comes to some of their customer service problems. For example:
1) The frame "recall"; At first they denied there was a problem blaming the usual suspects (bad ammo). Finally they admitted the problem and did the right thing by replacing the frames but it took a while (a looooong while). It turns out that they changed some of the dimensions of the frame rails (why? only they know) and this led to the problems. They switched back and the problems disappeared. It was poorly handled from the start.
2) NYPD G19 malfunction problem; The usual story w/ Glock. They dragged out the usual suspects and would not admit that there was a gun problem. Eventually they changed some of the feed ramp/magazine follower dimensions and fixed the problems. Took a looooong time.
3) Feeding problems w/ G22 and G27 (a recent development). This is just speculation on my part, but I would guess that this will turn out just like the frame and NYPD problems. Don't know if we'll ever know the whole story, but that's my opinion. It's worth what you paid for it.
When it comes to dealing w/ John Q Public, they are great. If you have a problem, send it in and they fix it (usually free). However, when it comes to a problem w/ an agency or a modification (made by Glock) to one of the pistols that causes problems, they stick their heads in the sand and pretend it will go away. Don't know why they do this. It makes no sense, but that's what I have observed.
I love the guns. They are extremely reliable, tough, easy to use/maintain, and combat accurate. Like anything else, do your homework before you buy. I wouldn't buy a G22 or G27 right now. I would wait until the current nonsense is resolved. On the other hand, if any of you have a G17 or G19 (regardless of when it was made) that you don't want, send it to me for a good home.

Marswolf

04-26-2007, 11:53 AM

1) The frame "recall"; At first they denied there was a problem blaming the usual suspects (bad ammo). Finally they admitted the problem and did the right thing by replacing the frames but it took a while (a looooong while). It turns out that they changed some of the dimensions of the frame rails (why? only they know) and this led to the problems. They switched back and the problems disappeared. It was poorly handled from the start.

I got a slightly different story about the cracked frame rail problem. As i understand it, they had one CNC machine that turned out all the bad rails. Glocks bookkeeping is good enough that when they discovered the cause of the problem, they were able to determine which individual guns had the bad rails. But Glock did not, and never has, issued a recall. If you call them and give your serial number, they will tell you whether to return the handgun. If you don't call, there is no way to find out.

No point in beating a dead horse, but I'm deadly serious. There is no way I would buy another Glock. They have some good features but also some serious design problems. I won't trust my life to one.

GhostDog

04-26-2007, 05:24 PM

About the frame problem. That's the problem, we never really got the whole story about what caused the original problem. Also, that's why is put recall in quotation marks, it was the "recall" that... wasn't. Glock inc handled the whole thing very badly from start to finish, no defense from me on that one.
However, we still disagree about the guns (surprise, surprise!). I don't think they have design problems. What they have is serious "how we deal w/ problems when they crop up" problems. The basic design is very sound or the guns wouldn't sell and work as well as they have. Just because one doesn't like the design, doesn't mean that the design is bad.
Of course, that's just my opinion.:cool:

molonlabetn

04-26-2007, 05:42 PM

I'll elaborate...

Glocks are not a 'bad' design, as GhostDog stated.

But, I don't think it is possible to argue that they are an especially refined design, either...

Some people prefer their tools to be more basic, it could certainly be argued that there are benefits to low-cost and simplicity.

To be perfectly honest, however, if simplicity was the only driving factor in a weapons' effectiveness, or desireability; every world-wide military and LE agency would be armed with Glocks and AKs... In reality, the only ones which do, are the ones which can only afford to aquire or maintain those weapons.

Marswolf

04-26-2007, 09:14 PM

I did notice that "recall" was in quotation marks. Figured you knew that story but that other readers might not.

Gentlemen, we'll just have to disagree about the Glock's design. It's faults are overlooked because of some good features and good agency pricing. If they are now having a reliability problem on some models and can't (or won't) fix it, that's just one more reason to pass on them.

I still claim they are a not unreasonable common duty weapon if they are reliable. They are pretty accurate, function under real-world conditions of mud, holster lint and other officer abuse, and do not have a safety to get in the way in case you actually need to fire. But they do have their faults, and for a bit more you can buy a superior handgun that is suitable for those who know they actually will have to fire their weapons, not just that they might have to do so.

GhostDog

04-26-2007, 10:53 PM

You make good arguments for your point of view and I respect that. But, I'm gonna have to call BS on that last comment. You know, the part about "those that know vs those that might have to". Any cop (or anyone else who carries) who doesn't operate under the assumption that he/she WILL someday have to fire his/her weapon will probably never get a shot off when the time comes.
Handguns are reactive weapons. What fool would knowingly go to a gunfight w/ a pistol only? If we disagree, that's OK, I can live w/ it. But let's stay out of "ninjaland" w/ our argument, OK? Besides, your arguments are always well made and sensible. You are far above that kind of silliness and you don't need it to make your point.
Respectfully, GhostDog

myheartsinTN

04-27-2007, 01:55 AM

And what in your opinion is a superior handgun? I'll assume you believe that to be an HK given your avatar. I'll be honest I didn't read the 8 pages here. Just curious.

for a bit more you can buy a superior handgun that is suitable for those who know they actually will have to fire their weapons, not just that they might have to do so.

Marswolf

04-27-2007, 12:34 PM

I'm gonna have to call BS on that last comment. You know, the part about "those that know vs those that might have to".

Heh, heh.

Ghosty, I'll plead guilty to hyperbole, but not BS. :D

I admit to using a bit of dramatic license. I was thinking of a lot of LEOs who carry their handguns for years and never have to fire it. Hell, a lot of them never even draw their duty weapon. A Jennings would probably be fine for them (more hyperbole).

OTOH, I was thinking of someone I know intimately who knows full well that when he goes into an operation he will likely be firing his service pistol. When you think of people who do that sort of work, how many of them carry Glocks?

I'd write more, but I haven't had breakfast and I'm so hungry I could eat a horse. :rolleyes:

molonlabetn

04-27-2007, 01:14 PM

snip, emphasis mine:
...I was thinking of someone I know intimately who knows full well that when he goes into an operation he will likely be firing his service pistol. When you think of people who do that sort of work, how many of them carry Glocks?...

That's probably the best way I've seen that put... and it is very true.

Sig, Beretta and H&K are the three which come to mind first, in that role.

GhostDog

04-27-2007, 01:18 PM

I was a cop and firearms instructor for a long time, so I know what you mean. It always comes down to the commitment of the INDIVIDUAL as far as skill level is concerned. Some are excellent, some are not. But that's true in all things (not just police), isn't it?
I don't have the experience to intelligently comment on the things and people you refer to. If I did comment, I would be guilty myself of spreading the BS (something I try hard to avoid). To me, the handgun is a reactive tool which is a product of police experience. That's probably why we disagree (different tools for different tasks). I will say this: Most (not all) that carry a gun into "harms way" don't get to choose. They have to take what they are given. All that matters at the end of the day is that they have; tools that work (Glock/HK/SIG/Beretta/M4/870 to name a few) and the skill and determination to put them to good use.

By the way, don't go pulling any more Bill O'Reilly words on me like "hyperbole". And also... I still love my Glocks!:D

GhostDog

04-27-2007, 01:29 PM

I'm no expert and I may be wrong. But... I don't believe that most of the people that Mars is describing go in w/ a pistol as their primary weapon. They may have a personal preference in sidearms but I doubt that's their main concern. It's kind of like asking a professional boxer what kind of socks he wears in the ring. He may like one type over another, but in probably ain't gonna be the deciding factor.
Just my opinion.;)

Hyaloid

04-27-2007, 01:38 PM

... I will say this: Most (not all) that carry a gun into "harms way" don't get to choose. They have to take what they are given...

I think that is an excellent rebuttal! Now, those that GET to choose, well they very well may not choose GLOCKS, but they are voluntarily going places where bad people try and place lethal amounts of fast moving projectiles into their vital organs, so they aren't quite right in the head to begin with. :p

I bet alot of people that cannot choose their weapon, would choose a GLOCK if they had a choice. Was that statement clear as mud?

I had to throw my uneducated and uncaffinated opinion in the ring so that I may be mocked mercilessly!

:D

Marswolf

04-27-2007, 01:43 PM

I will say this: Most (not all) that carry a gun into "harms way" don't get to choose. They have to take what they are given.

Reminds me of John Glenn's comment that it's hard to be confident when you know that the missile you're sitting on has been built by the lowest bidder. :p

Again, Glock is not a horrible duty handgun for LE use. But let's also face the fact that it is selected by departments both because it isn't a horrible choice and because Glock offers deep discounts to LE agencies.

As far as being a primary weapon, you are right that most of the time a rifle is preferred. But when you do need the pistol, you really want something other than a Glock.

Marswolf

04-27-2007, 01:44 PM

but they are voluntarily going places where bad people try and place lethal amounts of fast moving projectiles into their vital organs, so they aren't quite right in the head to begin with. :p

Valid point. :D

GhostDog

04-27-2007, 01:59 PM

GhostDog

04-27-2007, 02:14 PM

I think we both know that we're not going to change the other's mind. How about a truce?
I think we can both agree on this: What really matters is the shooter's determination and skill. As long as he/she has a gun that goes bang every time he/she pulls the trigger, the type isn't all that critical. We would all be better off spending less money on more guns and more money on ammo and shooting what we have.:up:

Marswolf

04-27-2007, 02:17 PM

When you need the pistol, a Glock is exactly what you want!... a pistol that works, is quick and simple, and has a good trigger. What you don't want is a gun with two different trigger pulls (DA/SA), has a dozen levers on the side, or a safety that requires an ape's fingers to use (high on the slide).:D
Why else, but the Glock, are all the rest playing catch-up w/ their DAOs and DAKs?

Actually, SA/DA is exactly what you do want. Keep it in DA and use it that way in an unexpected emergency situation, but place in SA when things are looking funky. Safer that way, you know. Why do you think so many SIGs, Berettas, and H&Ks are designed that way? Think Glock has the only smart people and the other professional manufacturers have all gone brain-dead? :cool:

I agree about the levers if one is a lever safety. De-cocking levers are good. Safety levers are bad. That is fixable in most other gun brands.

One of the problems with a Glock in a service weapon is that in other nasty parts of the world ammunition is often not very consistent. A Glock's unsupported chamber section could be a disaster. It gets back to that design thing again.

GhostDog

04-27-2007, 02:35 PM

Do this in this case, that in another? When the rest of the world around you is getting complicated, simple is good. One way, always will carry the day.
Levers are levers (more complications when simple is GOOD).
SIG, HK, and Beretta are the very manufacturers coming out w/ their "new and improved" DAOs. Something, by the way, that S&W did some time ago and fairly well.
The nasty foreign ammo is 99.9% for certain going to be 9mm which will not be a problem in a Glock (unless of course it fearures LEAD bullets).
Still love you, Mars, but ain't buying it.:devil:

Marswolf

04-27-2007, 02:45 PM

How about a truce?

"I have not yet begun to fight" - John Paul Jones

Just kidding. :D

I think a lot of the public proudly picks Glock as a personal weapon because they want a gun "like the cops have." Problem is, they aren't cops and need a weapon with different characteristics, just as the military or military-type people need a handgun with un-Glock-like characteristics.

LE agencies have reasons for picking a gun like a Glock. Feed reliability with factory ammunition (beginning to question that on in 40 S&W), accuracy, no manual safeties, lower unit cost and decent training all make Glocks a reasonable choice for some departments. I still think there are better choices, but they generally cost more.

That's one reason I post on this subject. I want prospective buyers to really take a look at the available handguns and pick one that is appropriate for their use, not just get something that is bought as much for ego reasons as for utility.

Marswolf

04-27-2007, 02:48 PM

BTW, a lot of departments have gone to DAO because of "problems" with their Glocks.

Nothing wrong with a good DAO trigger and you are right, it does simplify the weapon for people who need simple weapons. :devil:

Marswolf

04-27-2007, 02:52 PM

p.s.

I have some 9mm high pressure machine gun rounds I've shot in my Beretta 92SB. Want to try those in your G17?

saintsfanbrian

04-27-2007, 03:02 PM

GhostDog

04-27-2007, 03:06 PM

Here you are FORCING me to agree w/ you again! I've heard folks run down gunshop people for recommending revolvers to new shooters. I don't get it!
Revolvers are a great choice for beginning shooters because of the very things you bring up, Mars. Not to mention the fact that nothing is better for learning trigger control and discipline than a good revolver. If one's shooting starts to slip or gets sloppy, try shooting a revolver for a while and then go back to the pistol. The results are eye opening.
Unfortunately you are right, Mars. People sometimes choose firearms for all the wrong reasons. I have tried many, of all types, and choose the Glock because that's what works best FOR ME. I don't think it's the best thing since sliced bread, it's just what I shoot best and am most comfortable/confident with.
Along the same lines, some people treat a firearm like a talisman. Buying it, shooting it once, and sticking it in a drawer or in your belt won't keep you safe. You have to learn to use it and practice. If you lack the commitment to do this, you just might be better off w/ a rabbit's foot. At least the rabbit's foot won't "go off" and hurt you or someone else.
I hope that didn't sound "snooty", I didn't mean it that way. I don't know it all but what I do know, I've learned through hard work and my own stupidity (more nicely put: experience).

GhostDog

04-27-2007, 03:11 PM

I wouldn't even shoot those SMG rounds through YOUR Beretta!
Also, all people need simple weapons. That's why our "privates" don't come w/ a safety!:)
What you do w/ it is on you, don't blame the gear!

GhostDog

04-27-2007, 03:27 PM

I saw (I was there, not just an internet story) a guy shoot a stuck bullet out of a G19 once (it was a squib reload and he didn't do this on purpose). It bulged the barrel but did no other damage. One new barrel later he was ready to go. I think a Glock could handle the SMG ammo but I don't think it's a very good idea for any pistol.
If the DAOs are a result of "problems" w/ the Glock, why are they emulating the Glock trigger/action?:eek:
Working nights, must sleep. I'm SURE we will continue this later.

Tungsten

04-27-2007, 03:40 PM

One thing I would like to see on a Glock is a decocking lever. This should be easy enough to handle and allow something like the Walthers have with a half rack cocking. Do a press check and you are cocked again.
I've got to disagree with you there. A decocking lever really has no place on a handgun that doesn't have an external hammer, IMO.

molonlabetn

04-27-2007, 03:43 PM

Actually... DAO (and DAK, LEM, etc...), were the answer to the politically-correct practice of having a consistently high-tension trigger-pull.

The reason DAK and LEM are considered 'improved' is because they can be operated in such a manner as to not require a long trigger reset for subsequent shots, but automatically de-cock when the trigger is fully released... They are, in essence, a combination of many of the good traits of DA/SA and DAO, whereas a Glock trigger mechanism is (IMO) a combination of the worst traits of DAO and SA.

It is true that a warrior will likely rely on his/her long-gun, if they know they are going to a fight (even LEO grab a long-gun if they can, instead of answering a gun-battle with just their sidearm)... but the specific example which Mars alluded to was a person who knows that they will be discharging their pistol in a fight...

I think it's pretty clear that anyone with the option would choose the best equipment to rely on in a critical situation, we may not entirely agree what the 'best' equipement may be, the important thing is to be sure of your own choice...

There is, I think, an important (though over-lapping) distinction which ought to be made between the sidearm of the average LEO, and the sidearm of the average soldier or 'operator'. One is best defined as a tool, the other as a weapon... which generally are used under very different circumstances and conditions.

saintsfanbrian

04-27-2007, 03:48 PM

Tungsten, don't get me wrong, I love my Glock. I would just like the decocking mechanism for when taking it down. Added insurance I guess you would say. I am always very careful to drop the mag and then rack the slide when I am about to clean the gun, I would just like the added option of hitting the decocking button/lever to drop the striker in a safe manner rather than pulling the trigger.

Tungsten

04-27-2007, 03:50 PM

Marswolf

04-27-2007, 03:54 PM

Nitey night Ghosty! :D

I mentioned this test (http://www.streetpro.com/usp/torture.html) in another topic

During testing, a bullet was deliberately lodged in a USP barrel. Another cartridge was then fired into the obstructing bullet. The second bullet cleared the barrel, resulting in a barely noticeable bulge. The pistol was then fired for accuracy and the resulting group measured less than 2.5 inches at 25 meters.

While technically Glocks are DAO, we all know that this is a technical point only and they act like a SA handgun. Other DAO handguns generally act like real DAOs. They are not copying the Glock. They are deliberately not doing so.

molonlabetn

04-27-2007, 03:57 PM

That's easy... upgrade to an M&P. :D

Or a Walther P99...

Marswolf

04-27-2007, 03:58 PM

That's easy... upgrade to an M&P. :D

But make sure you get one with the de-cocking lever and magazine disconnect safety.

Tungsten

04-27-2007, 03:59 PM

Mars... are you carrying a full size USP with hammer or a compact w/o? Thoughts on decocking levers on the "hammerless" design (or bobbed as the case is with the USP Comp)?

GhostDog

04-27-2007, 04:00 PM

Tungsten

04-27-2007, 04:01 PM

But make sure you get one with the de-cocking lever and magazine disconnect safety.

:down: Boooooo on the mag disconnect!

Until S&W catches and retrofits all of the first run M&Ps with the weak plastic mag release button, you don't want a mag disconnect in your M&P automatic. Early production guns are prone to dropping mags at really inopportune times. No mag = no bang = serious pucker factor if you're in a firefight.

GhostDog

04-27-2007, 04:09 PM

I believe I have studiously avoided slamming any other guns (except in jest). I'm sure HKs are fine guns. What I am saying is that Glocks are every bit as good as any of them and, in some ways, better.
As to the DAO/SA/DA argument, who cares what the guts of the gun look like or how they work. Bottom line, on the working end of things, the LEMs/DAKs ect work exactly as does the Glock. Consistent 5-7lb trigger and won't go bang when dropped. The internals and semantics are about as important as **** on a boar hog.

molonlabetn

04-27-2007, 04:18 PM

I agree w/ you on the LE vs Military point of view. One might choose a different tool if they were offensive as opposed to being reactive. However, all weapons are just tools, semantics aside. Any tool that works will do if you have the right guy behind it.
I disagree about the DAK/LEM ect. Despite what the guts of the gun look like or how they work, the result is the same. The guns don't do bang when dropped and have a consistent 5-7lb trigger pull. In other words, they are a copy of the Glock action.

Actually, the H&K P7 was the first pistol to use a 'uniform' trigger pull model... Though, neither it nor the Glock are true DAO, technically, since the return from recoil of the slide acting upon the reset disconnector mostly pre-cocks the striker... The definition of Double-Action-Only specifies that the trigger perform the complete cocking action.

So, pre-cocked pistols are moreso in a class by themselves, exhibiting traits of both Single-Action and Double-Action-Only (which originated with bobbed-hammer revolvers).

DAK & LEM do not fully reset the hammer if the trigger remains depressed slightly, so in essence, this method effectively makes the extension of the trigger act as a pseudo-decocker as well... If I wrote the definition, it would be Triple-Action-Only :D

There is no similarity whatsoever between a Pre-Cocked Striker and DAK/LEM system... for one, the PCS does not have second-strike capability.

I must respectfully agree with you that we disagree about these details (unless my description has changed your point of view a bit).

Cheers!

Marswolf

04-27-2007, 04:21 PM

The DAOs I've played with don't feel anything like a Glock. Nope - won't buy it Ghost. If it did feel like a Glock trigger, I wouldn't purchase or use it.

Tungsten, I have two service weapons. Both are full size. The USP 40 is the urban gun. Beretta 92 is the field weapon. Both have hammers that are usable. I don't care for the USPc for that reason. It needs to be easily re-cocked. I use a P7M8 for urban concealed.

I agree with you on the Glock de-cocker. If take-down is a problem (it is), you just need a better handgun. :devil:

My comment about the mag disconnect is related to the takedown thingy. Without it, you can still fire the handgun to take it down, just like a Glock. I don't like magazine disconnects either.

One more thing about foreign ammo. Some of it has hard primers. The Beretta and USP (and a lot of the DAO handguns) allow re-strike capability. Just pull the trigger again. I've used some Philippine stuff that you just count on pulling the trigger twice on a quarter of the rounds. Not a big deal unless you do weird stuff.

I'm sure HKs are fine guns.

Yes, they are.

What I am saying is that Glocks are every bit as good as any of them and, in some ways, better.

No, they aren't :p

Tungsten

04-27-2007, 04:43 PM

I agree with you on the Glock de-cocker. If take-down is a problem (it is), you just need a better handgun. :devil:

My comment about the mag disconnect is related to the takedown thingy. Without it, you can still fire the handgun to take it down, just like a Glock. I don't like magazine disconnects either.

Oh ok. I think what you're referring to is the sear disconnect. The M&P should all have the sear disconnect but some are provided without the magazine disconnect. The mag disconnect is one of those things I just scratch my head at. Not sure why you'd really want it even though I have heard people say that it's a good safety in case you want to store the gun with a round in the chamber, but separate from the mag.

Seems like a dumb idea to me. :)

GhostDog

04-27-2007, 04:46 PM

You obviously know more about the internals than I do and I appreciate the information. But I don't think you're hearing what I'm saying. You used an interesting adverb in your narrative, "technically". That is my point. For the man behind the drawing board all those internal differences are terribly interesting. For the guy behind the trigger, they don't mean spit. The second strike capability is the only difference in operation and it's debatable whether that is of value or not.
When these companies started on the DAK/LEM/whatever, they had a specific goal in mind. They had to compete w/ Glock (5-7lb consistent trigger). They chose different routes to get there but the goal was the same, a goal defined by Glock.
I don't mean to be a knucklehead and I don't want to sound rude. SIGs, HKs, and Berettas are all fine pistols. They can all be counted on to go bang when you pull the trigger. They are not, however, better than a Glock. As a matter of fact, Glock has set the standard for what is best in a carry trigger (5-7lb consistent). I prefer a Glock, don't like SIGs at all. That doesn't mean I think SIGs are not good pistols, just not for me. To each his own.
I think some folks just go through all kinds of mental contortions to run down Glocks. Some of this is just personal preference, some may be elitism.
I don't know. I'll take any of those pistols in a pinch and be glad to have them. But... I would much prefer a Glock.
Hey Mars, I'm sure you know the other side of the second strike debate. If it don't go bang the second time, you've just been wasting time. And I will give you this: the Glock trigger doesn't feel like any other. You have to get used to it. But I believe that's true of any pistol, even between two pistols of the same type. It's either to your liking or it isn't. But I'm sure you have noticed that the DAK/LEM share the other attributes of the Glock trigger (pull weight/reset), as well as having gotten rid of all those shiny levers.

GhostDog

04-27-2007, 04:56 PM

Oh yes they are too! And my daddy's bigger than yours!:eek:

molonlabetn

04-27-2007, 04:59 PM

I enjoy mental contortions... But never to fabricate advantages/disadvantages.

The percieved comparison between the trigger-pulls of various pistols is relative, and as such those points are infinitly debatable... I concede that a 3/8" trigger pull of 5-7lb is universally accepted as an 'ideal' compromise between accurate/sensetive and adrenalin/AD mitigation. The idea of Glock setting that standard, though, is certainly debatable as well. I refuse to believe that criteria was not known well before Gaston was wearing diapers.

Either way, as you say, the method used to arrive at that specification is not super-critical to the person pulling the trigger.

Marswolf

04-27-2007, 05:05 PM

Oh yes they are too! And my daddy's bigger than yours!:eek:

And mine is bigger than yours. :cool:

Hey Mars, I'm sure you know the other side of the second strike debate. If it don't go bang the second time, you've just been wasting time.

If you only have ten rounds left, you pull the trigger a third time.

Tungsten

04-27-2007, 05:07 PM

Pardon me... just playing through...

1911 > all

:D

(running and ducking for cover)

GhostDog

04-27-2007, 05:09 PM

Now you're treating like Mars does and making me agree w/ you.
Believe me, I don't think Gaston is the second coming, I just like his pistols. It may be that the "ideal" criterion was well known before, but it was also well ignored until the Glock pistols came along.
You are absolutely right about the feel of the different DAO triggers. They vary quite a bit. All are very user friendly in my opinion. We each have to make our own choices in that area.

Marswolf

04-27-2007, 05:12 PM

Thought you were going to sleep.... :D

molonlabetn

04-27-2007, 05:14 PM

Pardon me... just playing through...

1911 > all

:D

(running and ducking for cover)

:popcorn:

What about Lorcin? 9 out of 10 gang-bangers can't be wrong!

molonlabetn

04-27-2007, 05:24 PM

GhostDog

04-27-2007, 05:25 PM

Now I'm going out the door to work. Gotta love 16hr shifts. Talk to you guys later. And thanks for letting me get some sleep.:down:

molonlabetn

04-27-2007, 05:29 PM

Now I'm going out the door to work. Gotta love 16hr shifts. Talk to you guys later. And thanks for letting me get some sleep.:down:

Sorry :blush: ... I know EXACTLY how you feel at this very moment.

Arguing semantics is addictive though, huh? :p

See you later, enjoyed the discussion!

db99wj

04-28-2007, 02:38 AM

Naaayyyyyy, naaayyyyyyyyy! Thump! Thump! Naaayyyyyyyyyy!

J/k, learning a lot from this conversation!

GhostDog

04-28-2007, 05:50 PM

It got quiet after I left yesterday. Were you guys interested in the thread or just hanging around to take turns beating up on me?:confused:

molonlabetn

05-01-2007, 04:10 PM

It got quiet after I left yesterday. Were you guys interested in the thread or just hanging around to take turns beating up on me?:confused:

I had to go do some work myself, actually... for most of the weekend too. I just never revisited the subject.

Nothing I debated was meant to 'beat up' on you. I respect your opinion. :up:

Marswolf

05-01-2007, 04:21 PM

I'd pretty much said what I have to say.

Now that I'm proven right, there is no reason to continue. :biglol:

GhostDog

05-01-2007, 05:05 PM

about being beaten up. I enjoyed the debate too. Besides, I figured Mars would reappear to get the last word.:D

Marswolf

05-01-2007, 05:26 PM

This was a good discussion. I think we all got to have our say.

towerclimber37

05-02-2007, 05:22 AM

Did someone say Browning Hi Power??
:D

hahahahah
The browning is actually a BETTER pistol, in my opinion.
but I'm biased.
I came to the thread late.

Tungsten, I LOVE 1911's...awesome design....created by a genius!
oh wait...JMB came up with those...

I am vindicated.
:D

Marswolf

05-02-2007, 12:51 PM

The browning is actually a BETTER pistol, in my opinion.

Better than what?

I like the Hi-Power. Almost bought one rather than the Beretta. Went with the 92SB because of reliability.

And it has a hammer to de-cock and re-cock, unlike some handguns.

Voodoo_1

05-02-2007, 02:00 PM

Mars,
I saw this on another forum this morning and instantly thought of you.

Definition of Glock
Main Entry: Glock
Pronunciation: Glock
Function: noun
Definition: A handgun manufactured in Germany
English Translation: Couldn't afford a Heckler & Koch :devil:

molonlabetn

05-02-2007, 02:09 PM

Did someone say Browning Hi Power??

hahahahah
The browning is actually a BETTER pistol, in my opinion.
but I'm biased.
I came to the thread late.

Tungsten, I LOVE 1911's...awesome design....created by a genius!
oh wait...JMB came up with those...

I am vindicated.

-----:angel: ---
-----JMB---
------^----
-----^^---
----^^^---
---^^^^---
--^^^^^--
:bow::bow::bow:

GhostDog

05-03-2007, 04:59 AM

Glocks are Austrian. I guess I'm just one of the unwashed masses. Simple and effective are more important to me than style points.:p

Voodoo_1

05-03-2007, 05:54 AM

Glocks are Austrian. I guess I'm just one of the unwashed masses. Simple and effective are more important to me than style points.:p

Thought they were Austrian. I just copied the reply word for word. No offense to all the Glock owners, just thought Marswolf would enjoy.:D

Marswolf

05-03-2007, 12:04 PM

Mars,
I saw this on another forum this morning and instantly thought of you.

Definition of Glock
...
English Translation: Couldn't afford a Heckler & Koch :devil:

Oddly enough (???) this matter came up while I was on a plane yesterday. Well, actually I was in a plane. :rolleyes:

I was with some military and military type guys and we were talking about handguns. A bunch of us had owned Glocks but don't now. A couple of guys now own Glocks.

Someone asked them why they had a Glock rather than a H&K and the answer was the H&K cost. Another guy chimed in that what he was talking about was just money cost. The real cost comes if you have the wrong weapon for the job. (Whatever that might mean....)

Tally:
12 active combat guys age 20s - 50s
10 have owned Glocks
2 now own Glocks.
1 plans to keep it

FWIW

molonlabetn

05-03-2007, 04:28 PM

You know, for all of the publicity which Glocks recieve about ADs, which is blamed (mostly rightfully so) on the user, why do we bother with trigger locks?

It would seem to me that a finger-lock would be more appropriate! Something rigid like a finger-splint which could be removed before firing?

http://di1.shopping.com/images/di/4b/6e/32/54577a7451706e58526a4c6368613442737841-150x188-0-0.jpg

I'm sure that Glock could include a Polymer model with every new pistol!

GhostDog

05-03-2007, 04:39 PM

We may not agree, but I'm glad we've all kept our senses of humor. By the way Molon, nice touch w/ the crack about the polymer finger lock. I think you're right, trigger locks make about as much sense as a finger lock.

Marswolf

05-03-2007, 05:51 PM

Hey, you are right! A finger lock should come with every Glock. :D

GhostDog

05-03-2007, 09:33 PM

molonlabetn

05-03-2007, 09:49 PM

You know the ones I'm talking about, like the one on an electrical appliance that says "don't use this product in your pool". The sticker on the Glock box could say "If you don't intend to become proficient in the safe use of this product, DON'T BUY IT". Of course, the sticker would then have to be put on every new car!:D

I like that idea!

Let's see... what warnings could we come up with?

"WARNING: DO NOT LOOK INTO THE BARREL WHILE LOADING OR FIRING THE WEAPON"

"WARNING: DEATH OR SERIOUS INJURY MAY RESULT IF USED TO DRIVE NAILS"

"NOTICE: PERSONS STRUCK WITH BULLETS FIRED BY THIS GUN MAY BECOME INCAPACITATED"

"NOT INTENDED FOR DRILLING"

"DO NOT USE IF DRENCHED IN GASOLINE OR OTHER FLAMMABLE LIQUID"

"WARNING: ANY LIVE CARTRIDGES LOADED IN THE CHAMBER WILL FIRE IF THE TRIGGER IS ACTIVATED"

"HAS BEEN SHOWN IN THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA TO CAUSE PERMANENT INJURY TO LABORATORY RATS"

"CAUTION: WHEN USING THIS DEVICE, MAKE SURE THAT NO CHILDREN OR PETS ARE IN FRONT OF THE MUZZLE"

I could go on...

GhostDog

05-03-2007, 09:56 PM

I think #6 pretty well sums up my sentiments exactly! Thanks, Molon.:up:

Marswolf

05-04-2007, 01:05 PM

From another board. :D

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/219/483764015_71a04cbfb9.jpg

molonlabetn

05-04-2007, 03:36 PM

The shooter of this pistol was using reloaded, full metal jacket ammunition. To the best of our understanding of the incident, the cartridge case was not sized properly, preventing the action from locking up fully, but allowing the action to close enough to fire the weapon. The result was an open breach detonation of the cartridge.

Not the Glock's fault in all likelihood.

Well, in a sense it is... because of the design flaw of the Glock which allows the gun to fire when out-of-battery.

The out of spec cartridge certainly contributed, but most pistols would not have allowed it to fire in the first place.

Voodoo_1

05-04-2007, 04:19 PM

From another board. :D

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/219/483764015_71a04cbfb9.jpg

LMAO, that is the best one yet!:rofl: :rofl: :biglol: :biglol:

Marswolf

05-05-2007, 01:21 PM

Well, in a sense it is... because of the design flaw of the Glock which allows the gun to fire when out-of-battery.

The out of spec cartridge certainly contributed, but most pistols would not have allowed it to fire in the first place.

A valid point.

I think I've posted about the POS American Ammunition I bought in 40 S&W for rapid fire practice. Looked OK, but some would not allow the USP to go into battery.

The first round that would not fire was a bit of a mystery to me. A cursory look at the handgun seemed OK. A closer look showed that the pistol was not quite fully in battery and that's why it properly would not fire.

There are just a number of problems with the Glock design.

jackdog

05-05-2007, 01:42 PM

Yadda yadda yadda.

Marswolf

05-05-2007, 02:05 PM

Some years ago the American Cancer Society had an anti-smoking commercial. It was animated with a Bambi-like deer and the voice-over told you in a voice like you would talk to children about how cigarette smoking contributes to the risk of cancer.

At the end, the narrator asks, "...and why do we talk to you like children? Because when we speak to you as adults...you don't listen."

:D

GhostDog

05-06-2007, 12:47 AM

With the commercial, that is. It seems that we (Glock guys) are making the adult argument, while you guys are doing the opposite (as if there is really an idiotproof pistol out there).
What's really rich, in my opinion, is that we're having this discussion about Glocks. I remember when the same arguments you make were made against 1911 pistols. I'm sure you remember: it will fire if dropped, trigger pull too light, outdated technology/bad design, too tough for the "average" shooter, ect. Now, magically, all those have disappeared. I wonder whatever happened to the people who used to say the same things about 1911s. I imagine they finally realized that they were "peeing up a rope" or public misinformation about the pistol changed so they lost their audience. I'm sure they never acknowledged that they just might be wrong.:devil:

molonlabetn

05-06-2007, 05:18 AM

I don't think that 1911s are the "cat's meow" either... but they are better in certain ways.

The potential for firing a cartridge out-of-battery is a BIG issue, and undeniably a predominantly Glock problem.

Marswolf

05-06-2007, 01:08 PM

I've never been that crazy about the 1911 either as a carry weapon. That's why I bought my own Beretta to carry rather than be issued a M1911 back in the early 80s. But that's another matter and a long story. Everyone should own a 1911, just for fun and tradition.

Actually, I think the analogy between the 1911 and Glock is a good one. Both 1911 and Glock aficionados insist their handguns are the best in the face of mountains of contrary information, fair analysis, and reality.

It should be noted that the 1911 was improved with a firing pin block in the Series 80 to prevent the drop discharge problem. I know some people don't care for the Series 80, but it is safer and a good gunsmith can take care of the other "problems" with trigger pull and whatever.

I might also add that I've owned a couple of military 1911s and a number of more modern ones. The 1911 was improved significantly over the years in a lot of ways. It has never been a static design. There is a good reason a lot of earlier 1911s got the nickname "Jam-o-matic."

My point is that Colt didn't stick its head in the sand and pretend there was no safety problem. It seems to me that this is what the "Glockies" are doing. They are ignoring a number of design faults in the Glock. No matter how much is written and said about Glock problems, they choose to dismiss the critics as having some mysterious personal reason to say untrue nasty things about Glocks. But criticism of the Glock design is legitimate. It has some serious problems that should have been addressed long ago.

Glock needs to fix these problems. It needs a new design that fixes them instead of ranting against the critics and pretending their design is perfect. The Glock design never would have made it out the door at H&K or SIG or other quality gun manufacturers.

As Lilly Thomlinson's character Edit Ann used to say, "and that's the truth." :p

GhostDog

05-07-2007, 12:52 AM

I don't believe I have ever said Glocks were the best. What I have said is that they are as good as any of the others that you mention.
Glocks are not perfect. The out of battery detonations and unsupported chambers in 40S&W are legitimate problems. No argument here on these. The rest of your argument is opinion, not fact. One can "fix" perceived (by them) problems by, for example, installing an 8-12lb trigger spring. This will not make them idiot-proof any more than making a DA revolver into a DAO will, but if it makes one "feel" better, oh well...
As to 1911s, my experience has been that a reliable one should not be fooled with and one that isn't reliable, probably never will be. Some of the "improvements" have turned out to be less than great. The Kimber series II external extractor is a good example of what kind of improvements not to do.
By the way, if Colt was so eager to "improve" the pistol, why did it take 70 years for them to "upgrade" to a firing pin block?
Speaking of SIGs, I wouldn't give a nickel for a dozen of them. The bore axis is too high, they have too many Germanic levers, and they have a nasty tendency to have horrible DA triggers followed by lighter SA triggers than any factory 1911 ever thought of having. Not a good combination, in my humble opinion. The one good thing about them is that they are very reliable. The difference is that I will concede that most of my complaints about SIGs (other than the DA/SA trigger combo) is just my OPINION. Doesn't make them bad, just not my cup of tea.
Once one cocks the hammer on a DA pistol, he probably has a lighter trigger than any Glock. I don't understand how anyone who advocates this can call the Glock trigger unsafe.
Pistols that work as advertised are not unsafe, people are. Different pistols have different manuals of arms. Ignore that at your own risk. Doesn't mean they should all be modified to work the same. If I have an HK P7, I had better learn the manual of arms for that pistol. If I shoot myself w/ it, rest assured I won't try to sue HK because I am an idiot.
Anyone who presents their opinions as fact, regardless of who agrees w/ them, runs the risk of looking foolish. Unless, of course, they are speaking to an audience that knows no better.

Tungsten

05-07-2007, 02:02 AM

I've got nothing against Glocks except for the unsupported chamber design and even that's not a big deal to someone like me who used 100% factory loads in my Glock 27 and Glock 23.

I think anti-Glock sentiment can sometimes be summed up as the 2nd Amendment version of Ford vs Chevy. :)

jackdog

05-07-2007, 03:57 AM

Bottom line is if you like the glock and you feel comfortable with the reliability, it is hard to change to another fire arm. On the other hand if you are a glock hater, no one will ever convince you that glocks are good firearms. I just recently put 150 rounds through an xd 40. I liked the way it fit my hand, it pointed easily and jammed twice. The jams I attributed to the Remington ammo I was using. At present I just can't see the need to spend 450.00 dollars on a gun that is not a whole lot different than my glock 23.
It could happen in the future, only time will tell. What I do know for sure is my glock has always went bang when I pulled the trigger. For the present I will carry what i feel comfy with my G23. :D

Marswolf

05-07-2007, 02:48 PM

I don't believe I have ever said Glocks were the best. What I have said is that they are as good as any of the others that you mention.
Glocks are not perfect. The out of battery detonations and unsupported chambers in 40S&W are legitimate problems.

Does it not strike you that this is not only begging the question, but contradictory?

Speaking of SIGs, I wouldn't give a nickel for a dozen of them. The bore axis is too high, they have too many Germanic levers, and they have a nasty tendency to have horrible DA triggers followed by lighter SA triggers than any factory 1911 ever thought of having. Not a good combination, in my humble opinion. The one good thing about them is that they are very reliable. The difference is that I will concede that most of my complaints about SIGs (other than the DA/SA trigger combo) is just my OPINION. Doesn't make them bad, just not my cup of tea.

Actually, Glock's ergonomics are one of the things I don't like about them. I found that I had to correct for their weird grip angle and bore axis. But that's just an opinion.

Once one cocks the hammer on a DA pistol, he probably has a lighter trigger than any Glock. I don't understand how anyone who advocates this can call the Glock trigger unsafe.

Maybe in some cases, but you can cock and de-cock them. Can't do that with a Glock.

I can't agree that this is a Ford vs. Chevy debate. Maybe a Pinto vs. Mustang debate. The Glock has very real design flaws. Yes, it can be made to work OK with specific ammunition, but there is not the additional safety factor one expects in a good handgun.

Compare it to a H&K or SIG, or Beretta, or XD, or whatever. These guns have supported chambers. They do not fire out of battery. They have heavier slide rails. They have heavier support for those rails. Most, but not all, will field strip with a round in the chamber or have safety features to prevent an AD on disassembly.

Glocks do work for a lot of people, but they are an outdated design that needs reworking to make them safer.

I'm not a Glock hater, contrary to what folks think. I'm just very critical and realistic about all guns. Over the years all of these guns have made incremental changes to enhance ergonomics and safety. Most changes are done quietly and without fanfare. No big "Generation X" announcements. But the changes are made. In Glocks case the things that need fixing are serious design flaws, and they have not been fixed.

So feel free to use your Glock. It will likely fire when needed. Just don't try telling me they are as good as other quality handguns. They aren't.

GhostDog

05-07-2007, 04:06 PM

At least I got you to admit that some of what you say is opinion. There may be hope for you yet.;)
As far as de-cocking is concerned, I just don't know how smart it may be to over complicate what should be kept as simple as possible. I wonder how many NDs occur when folks try to reholster cocked DA pistols. I guess there would be more if there were more of the guns out there in use. There can be no argument that there are more Glocks in use and, in my opinion, that is why there are more reported NDs w/ them. If all pistols in the US were HKs, you would have more reported NDs w/ them. More guns in use=more reported cases. It's a software problem (ie. people), not a hardware problem.
The picture of the "Glock shorts" (which is pretty funny) proves my point. Apparently, a lot of the problems are w/ reholstering. What could be the cause of that? I guess it must be the gun's fault, it couldn't possibly be the knucklehead w/ his finger on the trigger while he jams the gun into the holster.
Do Glocks have problems? Yes, they do. 40S&W is the poster boy for this. However, if one doesn't want to deal w/ the unsupported chamber, just get a different gun or don't shoot crappy ammo. Remember the Beretta problems in the late 80s/early 90s. There were all sorts of reasons given and Beretta fixed the problem eventually. Even so, they never really recovered from a PR perspective. In my experience, Berettas are great guns, but their sales still lag behind others due to the PR mess way back when. Despite the problems w/ the 40S&W Glocks, Glock does not seem to have suffered from it like Beretta has. I wonder why that is?:p It might have something to do w/ providing an excellent gun at a much better price.
A better analogy might be Mustang vs Porsche. If the Mustang will do everything you need it to do, why waste money on a Porsche?... Unless you just appreciate art and have the extra money. Better to spend the extra money on driving lessons. You just can't beat a good, utilitarian, reliable, rugged pistol that does what you need it to do when you need it.
Simple to use and easy to fix in the rare cases that something breaks, these are also hallmarks of the Glock. Try that with an HK, Beretta, or SIG.
There's nothing wrong w/ a certain amount of elitism, I guess. Everyone wants to feel special.:cool: But... in a jam, a good mule is better than a high strung quarter horse.

Marswolf

05-07-2007, 06:21 PM

There can be no argument that there are more Glocks in use and, in my opinion, that is why there are more reported NDs w/ them.

Remember the Beretta problems in the late 80s/early 90s. There were all sorts of reasons given and Beretta fixed the problem eventually. Even so, they never really recovered from a PR perspective.

There's nothing wrong w/ a certain amount of elitism, I guess.

I've thought about your argument quite a bit in the past and there has to be more to the ND problem than just that there are a lot of Glocks. When I go to the range, I see a lot more aggregate of handguns other than Glocks. But the guns that end up shooting their owners tend to be Glocks, or at least that is how it seems. I agree that it is the fault of the owner. Glocks don't go off without the trigger being pulled, but there is something about the design that makes it much more likely for the user to pull the trigger sufficiently to produce the ND on a Glock than other handguns. What it is I don't know. But it does appear to be a real phenomenon. I don't have to know why fire is hot to know not to put my hand into it.

If negligent self-shootings don't happen as often with other handguns as with a Glock, then I think it reasonable to conclude that Glock has a design making it less safe than other handguns.

My Beretta 92 is a SB model from around 1983 or so, before they were modified for M9 military use. My Beretta has been putting in service since I bought it and never had a problem. I remember the Beretta problems that came with M9 development and US manufacturing, but I doubt many younger people do. If Beretta has a PR problem like Glock, I don't know of it. Maybe it's the people I hang around with, but I never hear about problems with Berettas except environmental things like blowing dust and sand in Iraq, a problem fixed with a change to the proper lubricant. But I constantly hear about Glock kabooms, and Glock legs. It's a bit of a stretch, in my view, to say that Beretta has a PR problem and Glock doesn't. Unlike H&K and Beretta, Glock has a top of the line marketing group - like a good circus. Price and marketing are why they sell.

And as you probably remember, I think elitism is why a lot of Glocks are sold. Inexperienced handgunners want a gun "like the cops carry." They think they are buying status.

If you buy an H&K, you are buying status of course, same as if you buy a Ferrari. But it's status based on design and performance, not marketing hype. :D

I think your comment that, "if one doesn't want to deal w/ the unsupported chamber, just get a different gun" is precisely what I'm preaching. Designing a gun with a dangerous unsupported chamber strikes me as reckless and use of such a gun is foolish when there are safe alternatives. Safe handguns are readily available. So, once I examined the situation sufficiently, realizing what I had in a Glock, I did what you said. I got rid of the Glocks and paid a bit more for properly designed handguns.

molonlabetn

05-07-2007, 08:20 PM

All that being said (not needing to reiterate my own thoughts, either), there is a place for lower cost basic handguns. That is the niche which Glocks, XDs, etc, seem to fill. To say that there are arguments for-or-against any particular platform may be a stronger term than I am looking for to describe the surrounding debate...

Preference is probably a better way to put it.

Notwithstanding the facts and perceptions for given designs, all I can really put forth, objectively, to summarize is:

-Simple and instinctive operation promotes reliability (mechanically and functionally)
-Simplicity without refinement inhibits precise operation
-Refinement without simplicity requires user proficiency and conscious manipulation
-Instinctive operation leaves the user vulnerable to flaws in their own instinct
-Conscious operation requires training/practice
-Loose tolerances promote reliability while sacrificing safety factor
-Superior materials and refinement improve safety-factor given the same potential mechanical reliability

This holds true of pretty much any device I can think of, including firearms.

Donnie

05-07-2007, 08:53 PM

My brain hurts.

Marswolf

05-08-2007, 02:00 PM

Rather than beating the dead horse more about Glock design, let me point out what H&K has done to address the situation. Other manufacturers, like S&W, have used different designs. Maybe a bit of a shift from the negative to the positive would be good. :up:

H&K has available a trigger they call either the LEM (Law Enforcement Modification) or more currently the CDA (Combat Defense Action). It's standard on the P2000 and available for the USP.

The CDA trigger setup uses a two-part hammer -- an internal hammer and an external hammer. When the slide is cycled, either manually or by firing the pistol, the internal hammer is cocked but the external hammer follows the slide forward to its normal just-off-the-firing-pin position. When the slide is racked the hammer spring is roughly 80% cocked. When you pull the trigger you finish cocking the external hammer and fire the weapon. Depending on springs installed the trigger pull is around 5, 7, 8, or 10 pounds.

If for some reason the round does not fire, the gun becomes a standard DA weapon. Trigger pull is 11.47 pounds but you just pull the trigger again to re-strike. No slide racking is required.

Now, this trigger has a couple of interesting "tricks". First is that while the release pressure for firing is 4.5 pounds, the trigger has a long throw. That is you have a long pull to fire it. This largely eliminates the accidental firing of the handgun from inadvertently hitting the trigger. The first part of this throw is against only about 2# of finger pressure. At a point, near the end of that trigger stroke, resistance is encountered. If additional force is then applied to the trigger, the pistol will fire.

But there is yet another trick. The trigger reset is very short. So you don't have to release the trigger very far to take the next shot. The external hammer stays back and you essentially have a standard SA handgun release at this point. Release the trigger all the way and you go back to the long throw situation.

So, you end up with a handgun that has the reliability and safety you expect in a quality gun. Fully supported chamber, low likelihood of NDs, and double-strike capability. Changing a couple of springs will also allow you to change the trigger release pressure too, as a bonus.

I'll also add that the guns can be de-cocked for additional safety in the USP and the standard P2000 if desired. http://www.hk-usa.com/p2000_specs.html

GhostDog

05-08-2007, 02:05 PM

I think he pretty much summed it up.
Mars,
We just aren't going to agree (on this anyway:D). I think we just have different priorities in handguns. I don't know why Glock won't change the 40S&Ws, maybe they fear a decline in reliability. I still don't thinks it's a problem w/ quality ammo. Also, I didn't say Glock had no PR problems, what I did say was that they haven't suffered much because of them.
I'll never buy the ND excuses. It's a people problem, always has been and always will be. Some guns may be more prone to this w/ poorly trained shooters but the same guns are easier to shoot fast and accurately. Those same shooters are just as likely to shoot themselves w/ a cocked DA pistol. That was the point I was trying (poorly) to make.
I guess the only way to settle this like gentlemen is water guns at 10 paces at dawn. Bring a Second and plenty of towels (you'll need them). I plan on taking advantage of you while you're trying to cock your waterpistol.:D

Tungsten

05-08-2007, 02:09 PM

Very interesting. If Smith & Wesson doesn't satisfactorily resolve a minor problem we had with the M&P 9c (due back today) then we might have to investigate a P2000 9mm.

GhostDog

05-08-2007, 02:16 PM

I just read your last post. After re-reading my post from yesterday, it struck me as being more acidic than I had intended. I apologize, I didn't mean it to sound that way. I want to keep this exchange friendly.
Having said that, now I'm gonna poke you in the eye again.:devil: That HK trigger system sounds very German. We'll see if it survives "energetic" use.
Do you know why the Germans never killed Hitler? Because they let Germans come up w/ the plan. They should have hired a Russian. The Russian would have beat his brains out w/ an ax handle and he would never have survived to 1945.;)

molonlabetn

05-08-2007, 02:38 PM

...That HK trigger system sounds very German. We'll see if it survives "energetic" use...

The Sig 'DAK' trigger system is nearly identical, and supposedly even smoother (haven't had a chance to compare, myself).

After looking at the internals on the Sig, I have no doubt that the trigger bars and sear engagement will hold up very well, as they are FAR beefier than the thin, stamped disconnector used by Glocks...

Time will tell, but the systems have been around for more than a few years already... and I've still yet to hear of either an LEM or DAK mechanism failing.

Marswolf

05-08-2007, 03:29 PM

I just read your last post. After re-reading my post from yesterday, it struck me as being more acidic than I had intended. I apologize, I didn't mean it to sound that way. I want to keep this exchange friendly.

I think both of us were going a bit over the top. I'll accept your apology and offer mine. But my dad can beat up your dad. :rolleyes:

That HK trigger system sounds very German. We'll see if it survives "energetic" use.

It's been around a while and I'd bet my life that it won't fail. They keep tinkering with things like trigger pull weight, but the basic design has proven itself.

I think it's Hyundai who has out a handgun with a somewhat similar design. It's whatever is the official military handgun in South Korea. Lower price than H&K or SIG. I was pretty impressed with the ones I saw. But you have to manually push the hammer forward when it's cocked.

Tungsten

05-08-2007, 04:12 PM

I think it's Hyundai who has out a handgun with a somewhat similar design. It's whatever is the official military handgun in South Korea. Lower price than H&K or SIG. I was pretty impressed with the ones I saw. But you have to manually push the hammer forward when it's cocked.

Daewoo. They had (or have?) a pretty nice .223 rifle called a DR200 also. My brother bought one a few years back and I was pretty impressed with it as a cheaper alternative to the AR15 family. Used the same mags even.

Edit... I found a picture of one:

http://www.bdlltd.com/2496-_Daewoo-_left_side.jpg

And here is their "Tri-Action" DH40 pistol...

http://www.gunblast.com/images/RKCampbell_Daewoo/04.jpg

Marswolf

05-08-2007, 04:26 PM

That's it Tung...errr...Broadside.

Thanks.

GlocKingTN

05-08-2007, 11:06 PM

I sorta like the AR piece. Nice for something I have never heard of!

Marswolf

05-09-2007, 11:47 AM

The Daewoo DP51 9mm is the official military gun, as I recall.

http://www.floridagunworks.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=FG&Product_Code=432&Category_Code=FIREARMS+H+D

"These pistols are truly unique handguns that feature a ""Tri-action"" unique to Daewoo. It works like a dream... no clumsy de-cocker to fiddle with, you just push the hammer forward - that's it! But when you touch the trigger, the hammer snaps back and your trigger acts like a smooth single action! No more flyers on the first shot! Order your Daewoo in either 9mm and put all your shots in the 10 ring.....even the first one! These Daewoo pistols are produced in Korea. Light weight, short recoil, locked breech, May be fired in three modes: single-action, double-action and ""Fast Action"". Comes with 1 10 rd. magazine and plastic carrying case. Very affordable for home defense! Barrel: 4.1"", Overall length: 7.5"". Weight: 28.2 ozs."

$329.95

The 9mm can use S&W 59 series magazines.

They also make a 45 ACP model, the DH45 as well as a 9mm compact.

I found a good overview and review at http://www.gunblast.com/RKCampbell_Daewoo.htm

GhostDog

05-09-2007, 01:01 PM

"But when you touch the trigger, the hammer snaps back and your trigger acts like a smooth single action". Isn't this what some folks slam Glocks for? Because the hammer looks like it isn't cocked, does that make it "safer"? This would be funny if you guys didn't actually believe it! Oh well, maybe when people start shooting themselves w/ these wonder weapons, ya'll will see the light.:confused:
You can't legislate common sense and you can't make an idiot proof pistol. You can, however, make a lot of money if you can convince people that you have.
Actually, I doubt there will be an increase in NDs w/ these pistols because I doubt there will be an increase in sales of these pistols. The same people who now have DA/SA SIGs will buy the DAK and those w/ DA/SA HKs will buy the LEM. I don't believe there will be a marked increase in the number of these pistols in use over what currently exists. So... the same guys who have already had NDs w/ cocked DA pistols will have NDs w/ their new and improved system, but it won't constitute an increase.:D

GhostDog

05-09-2007, 01:25 PM

I was prepared to let this drop. But then I started reading the posts and was overcome w/ a wave of common sense. Sorry about that. At this point, I'm done. Maybe we can move on to other topics (that we can agree on).:up:

Marswolf

05-09-2007, 01:26 PM

It's the longer initial throw that makes it safer.

It is possible to make a safer pistol. Other manufacturers have done so.

We've gone over the number of guns fallacy.

There is nothing so uncommon as common sense. Some of us have it; some of us don't. :D

molonlabetn

05-09-2007, 01:38 PM

I think the point is, that the initial fully-reset trigger pull is the equivalent of a long DA stroke. Subsequent shots are made in a halfway-single-action mode, as long as you don't fully release the trigger.

I'd encourage anyone interested in comparing them to go handle a LEM or DAK pistol and evaluate it for yourself. There is a HUGE difference in how they operate, compared to any striker-fired pistol I have ever encountered, especially Glock.

GhostDog

05-09-2007, 07:33 PM

Some guns are so "safe" that they are practically unshootable. If we're not careful about blaming problems on the guns instead of the actual responsible party (ie. the shooter), that is exactly what we will all be saddled with (by the politicians).
As to the "fallacy" of the argument about the number of guns vs number of incidents, this is a pretty safe argument for you guys to make. The number of DAK/LEM/ect. will never equal (by a long shot) the number of Glocks in use, so it will be pretty much impossible for anyone to disprove your theory. How comfortable for you! Nothing like putting forth an argument that is impossible to disprove, is there?:p
Let's just bury the hatchet (not in each other) and let this drop.:up:

Marswolf

05-09-2007, 10:04 PM

But I just bought a super-soaker....:p

GhostDog

05-10-2007, 12:44 PM

First we argue about Glocks and now you've started an arms race!:D

molonlabetn

06-08-2007, 06:41 PM

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/headline/metro/4858523.html

Gun owner may lose permit for firing Glock at show
He accidentally shot himself

By JENNIFER LEAHY
Copyright 2007 Houston Chronicle

A man who accidentally shot himself in the hand during the High Caliber Gun & Knife Show at the George R. Brown Convention Center may face misdemeanor charges and revocation of his concealed handgun permit.

The incident occurred Saturday about 2:30 p.m. when the man tried to disassemble the Glock .40-caliber handgun while shopping for a new part, said event organizer Todd Bean.

"He pulled the trigger barrel over his hand and shot himself in the fatty part of the hand," Bean said.

On-site emergency medical personnel treated the man, who was taken to a hospital.

"We have signs posted at the entrance that state that no one can enter with a loaded weapon under Section 30.06 of the penal code," Bean said. If the man is convicted of violating the statute, he could lose his concealed handgun license.

The Texas Department of Public Safety requires the signs be in English and Spanish in "contrasting letters at least 1 inch in height" and be "clearly visible to the public."

"There are already a number of safeguards in place, and we keep piling on the safeguards," Bean said. People at doors ask if patrons are carrying weapons.

The show, which is held in Houston six times a year, is designed to offer "new and old guns, ammunition, gun parts, books, knives, knife sharpening, coins, camouflage" and other related accessories from about 150 vendors, Bean said.

jennifer.leahy@chron.com (jennifer.leahy@chron.com)

Real smart... Genius material right there. Of course, it didn't help that he had to pull the trigger to disassemble the pistol, without first being forced to lock the slide back...