Glock Safety

[jackdog]

Much as been said about the Glock pistols in regard to safety, so here is Jackdogs opinion on this issue.:popcorn:
By design a Glock pistol is a totally safe firearm only if the operator is a totally safe operator.
Where Glocks become an issue is when people start retrofitting there Glocks with all the after market do dads. Worst of these is the trigger connector change. Glocks are designed the way they are for a reason. If it ain't broke don't fix it.
The glock trigger does take some getting used to. I highly recommend countless hours of SAFE and perfectly correct dry fire practice, to learn the Glock trigger system.
Re-holstering a glock pistol is probably were most people screw up. Thumb strap style holsters require the operator to holster his weapon in a manner that will stop the thumb strap from entering the trigger guard.
S&W M&P series and KeL-tec are a lot like Glocks in the way the function.
With exception that Glocks have an enormous amount of after market available changes. Stay away from anything that is not stock Glock. A 3.5 pound trigger is no faster than a 5.0 trigger pull, and they lead I would think to Id's. Let us not blame a solid fire arm because people are either unsafe, stupid or want to tinker. The only exception to the above that I might entertain would be a barrel change, that would offer better chamber support.
that being said, Ive fired 1000's of rounds through my glocks and this has never been an issue. I inspect my barrels using a high powered magnifying glass during routine cleaning, look for any signs of failure or wear.

[GlocKingTN]

Thanks for the info jackdog!

[Len]

Well-said Jack!
One can throw a Glock from the top of a tall building in +1 configuration and it will not fire, nor will it likely be damaged beyond functionality. From what I have read, most ADs with Glocks have to do with people putting their finger inside the trigger guard when they are not supposed to. Either that, or the holster situation Jack mentions. Proper training & practice -including reading the manual of arms, proper equipment (holster, Glock-only mags, etc), and finger off the trigger will virtually ensure no ADs.
And as Jack suggests, dont mess with your Glock! Just my :2cents:

[GlocKingTN]

Sounds like a lot of common sense to me!

[jackdog]

Common sense seems to be a rare commodity in todays world

[GlocKingTN]

Common sense seems to be a rare commodity in todays world
Rare isnt the word, more like invisible!:p

[Hyaloid]

The best safety for firearm use is located securely between the user's ears.

[LegalRaptor]

:up:My first personal defense firearm was a Glock 19, and I still love the gun. I carry the M&Pc 40, but have nothing bad to say about the Glock. The weapon is safe, the operator is the risky factor.

[drewi]

Good advice Jackdog.

I think people put those 3.5 lb connectors on their gun because they think it will help them shoot better. It might seem so, but for the most part I think it just covers up poor trigger control.

I fell into that same trap with the light trigger stuff. That's one of the reasons I was fascniated with 1911's for so long. I could shoot better with single action triggers and Glocks with 3.5's. It turned out I was just shooting bad, and once I corrected my poor habits I was able to shoot just fine without a 1911 and without a 3.5 lb connector in a Glock.

Glocks get a bad wrap because they don't have a manual safety. Most of the stories I've heard or read about have one thing in common. Someone placing a finger on the trigger before they got on target. Or perhaps there was no target at all. They were sitting at their desk or showing a bunch of kids the gun in a classroom.

Glocks a like revolvers in that they don't have a external safety. And revolvers have been carried for years and years (by now Glocks have too). I think the only thing that is debatable here is the proper weight of the trigger pull on a gun with no safety. The trigger pull on a stock Glock is roughly half of the weight of a revolver trigger. Is that too light?

I've been ND free for my whole shooting career. I sure hope it stays that way. I know the odds are stacked against me as much as I am around guns.

Don't put your finger inside the trigger guard unless your sights are on the target and you're ready to shoot. And for most situations there's no need to reholster your sidearm as fast as you drew it. Slow down when reholstering. And if you're sporting an IWB with an untucked shirt, clear the shirt before you reholster.

[jackdog]

Good advice drew, especially the reholster part.

[G17]

Stock is Slow- Racing Glocks Rock !!!!!!!
G24
G31
G17X2
G26

[Archimedes]

The only thing better than a Glock is 5 Glocks.

:)

http://www.clanthu.com/images/glockchimp.gif

~Archi

[Marswolf]

Oh dear....

I don't normally copy my postings from one board to another, but I've been on a rant about this over on HK94 and a couple of posts pretty much sum up my feelings about Glocks. I'll try to combine them. I know this won't change any minds but it puts my views on record.

This started with a story about a veteran cop shooting (and killing) himself with his Glock. http://www.nj.com/news/jjournal/index.ssf?/base/news-3/117497492799530.xml&coll=3

Got the typical crap about how Glocks are safe if you just keep your finger off the trigger that is the mantra of Glock religionists.

One guy posted that not clearing the action properly and having the assembled weapon pointing at your chest while cleaning would be equally deadly with any brand of handgun. I responded that this isn't true. "If I start to clean my USP and it still has a round in the chamber I don't have to pull the trigger to take down the weapon and the handgun will not discharge. Same with my P7M8. Same with my 92SB. Same with my P-3AT. Same with P220."

Then one of the guys said that blaming the accident on the Glock is like blaming Ford for a Crown Vic catching fire after being hit by a molotov cocktail. I responded that a better analogy is like "blaming the Ford Pinto for bursting into flames when rear-ended. It wasn't the fault of the Pinto that it got rear-ended, but it is the fault of the Pinto that it burst into flames under those circumstances because the gas tank was improperly placed and designed. With proper design, the car doesn't get engulfed in flames.

This terrible accident wouldn't have happened with a better designed handgun. The problem is that there isn't sufficient safety factor for people acting improperly. With most other handguns, there is.

I'm getting more than a little tired of seeing Glock religionists blaming the victims because they aren't perfect in gun handling technique. None of us is perfect in that area. Much of the problem is the poor design of the gun itself. Why doesn't this happen with H&Ks or SIGs? Design!

In my area, of the non-suicide self inflicted handgun wounds I know of in the past five years all are from Glocks except for one (Glock-like) XD-9 shooting and one 1911 shooting in the leg that involved a significant amount of alcohol. Ignoring reality doesn't make it go away and blaming the victims for not being perfect doesn't make Glock a properly designed and safe enough gun.

If the design features of the Glock were in a $100 Saturday Night Special, everyone here would be ridiculing it and saying that the people who got hurt or killed with it deserved what they got for buying such a poorly designed gun."

Now, that is my :2cents:

[ReefBlueCoupe]

Marswolf, do you believe any of these accidents would have occured had the operator only had his finger on the trigger with the gun pointed downrange?

You mentioned something about this above but didn't elaborate.

This is coming from a non-Glock religionist, but someone who has owned a Glock and not shot himself with it.

[towerclimber37]

ok..my opinion..Every weapon has its own safety system or lack thereof.
While some are "more safe" than others, with more safety features and fail safes, it is up to the operator to learn that safety system and apply it EVERY time the weapon is used or practiced with.
Its a natural reaction for someone who hasn't had enough training, to put their finger on the trigger..In my opinion, that is the problem of the Glock.
It can be the safest firearm on the planet when no one touches it...doesn't matter one bit..all those safety features become null and void immediately when someone who's not trained in its particular safety features access that firearm.
I also think one of the reasons that Glocks get a lot of blame is that its a very popular pistol. Because of that, the incidence rate is higher.

comments?

[Marswolf]

Guys, the problem is that people who handle a gun a lot do not always handle it properly. You can't reasonably expect that to happen. You have to have a reasonable safety factor for temporary brain-deadness. Glock has a lot less margin for this unsafe handling than other quality handguns. That's why otherwise careful gun folks shoot themselves so much more often with a Glock.

Glock has a safety problem and pretending that it doesn't isn't my style and doesn't make the problem go away. I've owned Glocks. I don't now. I always do a very critical review of any handgun I own. Glock didn't measure up. There are a lot of better, if sometimes more expensive, choices.

And this doesn't even get into the stupidity of having the unsupported part of the chamber.

Objectively, it's a lousy design. It is adequate for a LE duty weapon. It should sell for $200.

[ReefBlueCoupe]

Still, it comes down to not having your finger on the trigger unless you're pulling it on purpose.

Someone could argue that a 1911, even though it has a manual safety, is more dangerous because if someone has one in the chamber and the hammer back, and forgets to engage the safety, the trigger is more sensitive than a Glock.

[towerclimber37]

ach...it always comes down to the 1911. I think that many people pick on that pistol simply because it was designed by a genius..errr no, because its' had the longest service life of any automatic handgun in the world, err..no wait..because its been used by the most military forces in the world. *Sigh* Lets stick to the Glock and its safety features, please. Don't go picking on another pistol.:cool:

oh..and umm in order for someone to shoot themselves in the manner you described reef, that person would have to do 3 dumb things in a row. It only takes ONE dumb thing for a glock to go off

[towerclimber37]

remember what I said, Reef about mans' natural tendancy to put his finger on a trigger? that immediately makes all safety precautions a null value, when a trigger safety isnt combined with some other safety feature.
do a test! see if it isn't so...ensure your pistol is unloaded and allow 10 neophytes to hold it. cautiously observe them..they'll negate that trigger safety EVERY time.

[ReefBlueCoupe]

ach...it always comes down to the 1911. I think that many people pick on that pistol simply because it was designed by a genius..errr no, because its' had the longest service life of any automatic handgun in the world, err..no wait..because its been used by the most military forces in the world. *Sigh* Lets stick to the Glock and its safety features, please. Don't go picking on another pistol.:cool:

Well, re-read my post. I said "Someone could argue." Not, "The 1911 is not safe." Meaning you can pick any particular thing about just about any object in existance and claim it's not safe.

Please don't make it look like I'm picking on any particular gun, or any gun at all. My stance is that modern guns are safe. Glocks, 1911s, XDs are all safe guns. It's the users who are not safe.

Hell, I just bought a 1911 yesterday :lol:

[Marswolf]

You might notice in my earlier post that I mentioned that one of the local self-shootings came from an XD, which is remarkably similar to a Glock because most people do not take their hand off of the grip safety when holstering the weapon. Training fixes that. There ain't no training fix for the Glock. ;)

Modern guns don't go off without operator interaction. But some are clearly safer than others. They allow more room for improper operation of the weapon. There is no reason why you should have to release the striker before disassembling a modern handgun. This is the same design as in the Jennings. Junk. Or maybe I'm looking at it wrong. Maybe the Jennings was a great weapon. At least they didn't have an unsupported part of the chamber.

And know what? You can field strip a 1911 with a round in the chamber and without dry firing it without it going off. Not advisable, but you won't kill yourself that way or shoot up the furniture. You'll just feel stupid.

[ReefBlueCoupe]

And know what? You can field strip a 1911 with a round in the chamber and without dry firing it without it going off. Not advisable, but you won't kill yourself that way or shoot up the furniture. You'll just feel stupid.

I never understood how people shot themselves while cleaning guns. The first thing you do is MAKE SURE IT'S NOT LOADED!

I think by "make sure it's not loaded" a lot of people say "well I don't remember it being loaded when I had it out last, so it must not be loaded now."

[towerclimber37]

Hell, I just bought a 1911 yesterday :lol:

yah...I'm a bit jealous! :D

[Marswolf]

I never understood how people shot themselves while cleaning guns. The first thing you do is MAKE SURE IT'S NOT LOADED!

Fortunately, you and I are not them. :D

[db99wj]

Fortunately, you and I are not them. :D

Me either, that reminds me, need to clean the XD tonight.

[saintsfanbrian]

Glock = Good Gun, could use and external safety or a decocker at the least. Another poor design (in my opionion) is having to pull the trigger to take it down. I would much rather have the decocker option than that.I do carry one most days and haven't shot myself (prays)

[jackdog]

Do Glocks have design problems, Yes. Mars I do see you point of view, and I respect what your saying. Based on your augurments I will concede that the Glock is more dangerous than other weapons. I still like my Glocks, it's a matter of personal preference. But safe gun handling is and always will be the key to safe firearms. Poor safety = poor preformance or worse. If a person gets in a car and backs over there child, it is not the cars fault it is the fault of the operator. Good car safety says walk behind your vehicle before you get in and drive.

[Marswolf]

A car isn't designed by the manufacturer so it normally has a child behind it that you have to remember to remove before backing up. :rolleyes:

I'd love to hear a tape of the meeting when they decided to actually design in the unsupported part of the Glock chamber.

[jackdog]

How many unsupported chamber incidents were not caused by ammo or owner abuse. Do I like the chamber design no. But then again I have never had a failure with my Glock stock barrel, nor has my Glock ever failed to fire, and I carry it mainly for that reason. Perhaps you should sue Glock for their design.

As far as thcar scenario, Glock did not design their firearm so it normally has a operator pointing it at his or chest and pulling the trigger.

[molonlabetn]

Glock = Good Gun, could use and external safety or a decocker at the least. Another poor design (in my opionion) is having to pull the trigger to take it down. I would much rather have the decocker option than that.I do carry one most days and haven't shot myself (prays)

Hmmm...

A Glock with a decocker, and better ergonomics perhaps...

Sounds alot like a Walther P99AS... :eek:

I want one of those! The differences that make me want a P99, are the same differences which cause me to reject Glocks. That about sums it up. I would even prefer a P99AS to my XD (especially if available from the factory chambered in .357sig).

[saintsfanbrian]

Actually, Molon, I am wanting a P99QA I think. I almost bought one when I got my Glock 19 but the Glock just felt better at the time. Oh well, one day they will all be mine.

[Marswolf]

How many unsupported chamber incidents were not caused by ammo or owner abuse.

How many kabooms were caused by the unsupported chamber and would not have happened in any other gun? It's a lousy stupid design. :p

BTW, in the nuclear power industry we used to have DBAs - "Design Basis Accidents". Someone decided that this was bad PR and so DBAs became "events". I'd say blowing up the barrel in a Glock is more than an "incident" to those it happens to. :D

[towerclimber37]

Oh well, one day they will all be mine.

:D I know that feeling!:D

[GhostDog]

This just my opinion, so take it for whatever you think it's worth:
I don't buy into the "Glocks are unsafe" theory. If the guns were unsafe, everyone else would not be in such a hurry to copy them/follow in Glock's footsteps. The gun functions as it was designed to and does it very well.
The Glock functions just like a DA revolver. Is the trigger lighter? Yes, it is but the function is the same. Is the revolver more tolerant of a finger on the trigger when it shouldn't be? Yes, but only slightly. You pays your money and you takes your chances. Trying to make an "idiot proof" gun is an exercise in futility.
I help one of our local instructors with permit classes. I don't teach the class, I just help out as an RO with the shooting portion of the class (I am no expert and don't claim to be). I have made a few observations; Most people can use their sights and, if they understand trigger control, can put holes in a target. However, when it comes to gun handling, far too many are clueless. Many don't understand how their own gun functions regardless of the gun type. More levers do not solve their problem. Can you suggest that they may be better off with a good DA revolver? You sure can, but they won't listen. Then again, some people buy their 16 year old a brand new Mustang and then wonder why the car is wrecked and their child injured. You ain't gonna fix it, they have to figure it out for themselves.
As far as "trained professionals" are concerned, some of the same observations apply. I was a police officer for over 10 years. Again I'll say that I'm no expert but I did notice a few things. Skill level varies from individual to individual. Give a man a rope, it don't make him a cowboy. There are plenty of cops out there who are little better than the average joe when it comes to gun handling. Not a knock on cops, just the way it is. It's up to the individual to build skill. Most departments train to the lowest common denominator.
DA/SA pistols are slightly more tolerant of the "finger on the trigger" problem UNTIL the first shot is fired. After that, they are actually worse. I'm sure there are plenty of cases of "trained professionals" trying to holster a cocked DA/SA pistol with predictable results.
If a person is uncomfortable with Glocks, buy another pistol but it ain't gonna fix the problem. You can put a heavier trigger (8lb/12lb) in the Glock if it helps you sleep at night but it ain't gonna fix your problem.
I am NOT trying to sound superior and I hope this won't be taken that way. I'm no better than anyone else. I could have an ND tomorrow but it's MY RESPONSIBILITY to prevent it, not a gun's.
Before anyone brings this up let me say: I am not Gaston Glock, do not sell Glocks, and do not own stock in the company. I just like the guns. I have owned and carried many different guns. I like 1911s, S&W pistols, and Berettas as well. Don't care for SIGs but they are fine pistols. All that is required of a good self defense pistol is that it go bang when you pull the trigger and keep going bang until you stop pulling the trigger. Other than that, the choice is yours. Pick what you shoot best.

[Marswolf]

My view is simply that while it is the responsibility of the user to prevent ADs / NDs. The design of the Glock makes that event much more likely with a lapse in concentration and I think empirical evidence indicates that.

I'm not trying to beat up on Glock lovers. As I've said, it is a perfectly adequate duty weapon.

I do think it has three problems:

1) It is too easily fired inadvertently.

2) The design that requires it to be dry fired in order to field strip it is poor.

3) The partially supported chamber is unnecessarily dangerous.

And these are all problems other quality handguns do not have. So why on earth buy a Glock?

[GhostDog]

Believe it or not, I'm not trying to get into a "peepee" contest with you. I respect your opinion, I just disagree.
1- The same quality that makes it easier to fire inadvertently also makes it easier to fire fast and accurately.
2- "Back in the day" the Beretta was knocked because it could be taken apart by a "bad guy" while a "good guy" was holding the loaded pistol. This is not a shooting problem, it's a gun handling problem (meaning an "operator" problem).
All guns should be checked before anyone tries to take them apart. Changing guns/designs won't fix this.
3- This chamber problem seems to be a 40S&W problem rather than a Glock problem. I don't know why Glock hasn't changed this unless they fear it will affect reliability. I do know that many police depts love their 40 Glocks and have not had any problems. I suspect that the problem is more ammo related than most folks will admit. Are other 40S&W pistols more tolerant of "less than optimum" ammo? Probably, but that doesn't mean that the problem is mostly a Glock problem. If a man wants to be able to shoot crappy 40S&W ammo, don't get a Glock. Personally, I don't really care for 40S&W. If I were to want a 40, I would probably get a Beretta/Stoeger Cougar. These were designed for the 40 so they are NOT 9mms that were "redesigned" to handle the 40. It's kind of like squeezing a fat guy into a VW Beetle: you might be able to do it, but that don't make it a good idea.

[Marswolf]

Hi GhostDog. This is just my day to PO other people. :cool:


1- The same quality that makes it easier to fire inadvertently also makes it easier to fire fast and accurately.

Well, yes and no. I find that consistency in the trigger helps make the bullets land where they are supposed to. I added a dual stage Jewell trigger to my Remington 700 VS because I know exactly when it will fire. My USP and Beretta are very repeatable in SA mode. It doesn't have to fire easily, it has to fire consistently. I have said all along that Glocks can be very accurate. But something, whatever it may be, makes them go off more often than other guns when not expected. That, in my view is not good.


2- "Back in the day" the Beretta was knocked because it could be taken apart by a "bad guy" while a "good guy" was holding the loaded pistol. This is not a shooting problem, it's a gun handling problem (meaning an "operator" problem).
All guns should be checked before anyone tries to take them apart. Changing guns/designs won't fix this.

I'm well familiar with this. I've carried a 92SB for a couple of decades. I know a LE guy in Bristol that can remove the slide from a 92 before you know what is happening. I use the 92 as a long-range handgun or make sure any potential BG doesn't get close.

Of course guns should be checked before disassembly. The point I keep making is that for one reason or another sometimes they aren't checked. In Berettas, or H&Ks, or SIGs that does not result in the gun firing. In Glocks, it does because you have to pull the trigger to un-cock it in order to remove the slide. You may not consider this a design flaw, but I do. It should be fixed. It's the same design "feature" that drove Jennings into bankruptcy. But the Jennings is considered a cheap crappy gun, while a Glock is revered as professional.


3- This chamber problem seems to be a 40S&W problem rather than a Glock problem. I don't know why Glock hasn't changed this unless they fear it will affect reliability. I do know that many police depts love their 40 Glocks and have not had any problems. I suspect that the problem is more ammo related than most folks will admit.

Factory ammo works fine in a Glock. I strongly suspect Glock (Gaston and the rest) decided that feed reliability was more important than additional safety factor. My contention is that other quality firearms have that same reliability with additional safety. It's possible to blow up any handgun with sufficient overpressure. But rounds that would be easily handled by other handguns blow up a Glock. There is really no reasonable excuse for this. This is a needless danger.

I owned Glocks but took a hard look at design and function. I didn't like what I saw.

With so many better guns out there, I easily found some that have equal reliability and more safety. I just can't understand this loyalty so many people have to what is in my view an inferior handgun.

[LiLBucket]

Man, this is an interesting debate!! I own a S&W SW9VE and have mixed feelings about the points of interest here.

First of all, I love the gun and have had no issues with the Sigma stlye trigger. I'm no "tactical" (I love it when I get to use that word!!) expert when it comes to handing, shooting, or whatever else applications might be in question, I'm just a guy with a gun.

The thing that I feel most strongly about is the fact that it's about the individual holding the weapon. Darwin always seems to win when it comes to these things. Lack of training and abundance of ignorance will never mix.

I know poeple that have gone out and bought an ovepowered croctch rocket just because their friends all rode and they wanted the neatest, fasted name available. A few of them shouldn't have bought anything above a moped let alone a sportbike that'll do over 120mph! It didn't work out for some, others it has. One needs to know their limits and the capabilities of the things they're dealing with. Sure, sportbikes aren't safe and have limited safety features build in, but they also have their respective purpose as do guns. Said sportbike maker can't be at fault for said ignorance.

I wonder how many people go out and buy a Glock as their first gun based on the popularity of the Glock name alone with little knowledge or research of what they're getting into. Accidents happen. Accidents that could be avoided by certain safety features. Where's the line drawn though?

These are just my feelings and pennies worth. Sorry if it seems like a bit of a rant!! Where else to rant than TGO though!!

[Marswolf]

I wonder how many people go out and buy a Glock as their first gun based on the popularity of the Glock name alone with little knowledge or research of what they're getting into.

Lets see if I can dig my hole a little deeper.... :D

It's not just first gun buyers. I did that. [hiding face in shame]. I had used a Beretta 92SB for years in the field and decided to "update" to a modern weapon. Went out and bought a shiny new black Glock 26 because so many of my LE friends used them. Even after I traded it for an XD-9 sub, I bought a G23 for a carry gun - duh!

I view Glocks as acceptable but not preferred for a LE duty weapon.

I think most people buy a Glock because they want a gun like the cops carry. I think they believe there is some sort of inherited mystique and professionalism that goes with the Glock. But the top professionals I know don't carry Glocks. It's one of those things you look for when sizing up someone in law enforcement. Maybe it's snobbery. Maybe it's experience. :rolleyes:

Sort of like years ago when I bought a Mazda RX-7. Renaissance Red and a real babe magnet. Nice vehicle, until you put it up against a "real" sports car. :cheers:

[LiLBucket]

I'm guilty of said offense as well! (buying for "coolness" or reputation factor)

Luckily I was and am surrounded by good influences when it comes to firearms.

I'm sure the "Glock safety" issue will be debated as endlessly as Ford and Chevy (PLLLLEAASSEE don't start that here).

[Marswolf]

I like Fords. :D

[Archimedes]

I've never had a handgun that was more comfortable to shoot than the Glock.

I'm not going to get into this debate, but I will ask Mars exactly what he hopes to accomplish in arguing this repeatedly.

Do you hope to turn Glock owners away from their pistols one-by-one or are you just making sure we all know your position?

I'm all for a good flak session, but I'm not swayed at all from using my Glock.

There's a reason that Glock is so popular among LE and Military forces around the world. If it’s not for their reliability and ease of use, then what?

I respect you, Mars. You seem to really have a lot of useful experience, but I really think you're tirades on Glocks fall on deaf ears.

ADs are purely the fault of the user….nothing more, nothing less.

I’ve not had a ton of experience with firearms, but I’ve never heard of any firearm spontaneously firing itself without any outside interference.

Ghostdog was on the right track when he was talking about automobiles. A Charger with a HEMI is more likely to get the user in trouble than a GEO with a three-cylinder, but the user must accept that responsibility going in. An individual must know how to handle the equipment they are using and accept the increased risk, if they wish.

~Archi

[GlocKingTN]

I've never had a handgun that was more comfortable to shoot than the Glock.

I'm not going to get into this debate, but I will ask Mars exactly what he hopes to accomplish in arguing this repeatedly.

Do you hope to turn Glock owners away from their pistols one-by-one or are you just making sure we all know your position?

I'm all for a good flak session, but I'm not swayed at all from using my Glock.

There's a reason that Glock is so popular among LE and Military forces around the world. If it’s not for their reliability and ease of use, then what?

I respect you, Mars. You seem to really have a lot of useful experience, but I really think you're tirades on Glocks fall on deaf ears.

ADs are purely the fault of the user….nothing more, nothing less.

I’ve not had a ton of experience with firearms, but I’ve never heard of any firearm spontaneously firing itself without any outside interference.

Ghostdog was on the right track when he was talking about automobiles. A Charger with a HEMI is more likely to get the user in trouble than a GEO with a three-cylinder, but the user must accept that responsibility going in. An individual must know how to handle the equipment they are using and accept the increased risk, if they wish.

~Archi
Easy there Archi......Easy! He has a right to his opinion, just like you and I do! No matter if its good or bad! Its just like the Ford/Chevy argument, no one wins!:up:

[GhostDog]

because I really don't care if it's a ford or chevy as long as it goes "vroom" when I turn the key and doesn't have to go to the shop every other week.

Mars,
Again I'll say that I'm not trying to start anything with you. You obviously have a wealth of experience so... please believe me when I say that I'm smiling as I type the following: I noticed that when you mentioned the USP and Beretta being repeatable, you mentioned the SA mode and not the DA mode. Maybe you should try a Glock again. {said jokingly, let's keep it civil}

[Archimedes]

I didn't mean for my post to be offensive at all.

Like I said, I have the utmost respect for Mars.

I think I'm entitled to my opinion too, though.

Actually, I agree with Mars that the Glock is inherently more dangerous than some other pistols, but that doesn’t necessarily make it bad.

Helicopters are innately more dangerous than fixed-wing aircraft, but their advantages far outweigh their risks.

SUVs and such are intrinsically more prone to roll-overs, but you have to have the ground clearance to do any serious off-roading.

And I don't care what it is either as long as it's cool in my eyes.

Like this, for example:

http://www.clanthu.com/images/427cobra.jpg

~Archi

[Marswolf]

I think we are getting on the same track. My point is not to offend any of you, but to get you thinking critically. I am very critical of all of my guns and look realistically at their problems - and they all have them. I could improve on all of my guns. In some cases, I have improved them.

As I've said, Glocks are fine for duty weapons for LE. They are also fine for MPs but not general military personnel.

Glock came around when LE was going through an early fit of political correctness. Those nasty cocked hammers on duty weapons scared the public. Basically, a 1911 with a cocked hammer is the same thing as a Glock as long as you don't use the safety but a less safe Glock for some reason doesn't bother the brain-dead public as much.

I'm sorry guys but I'm not going to say that a handgun intentionally designed with a unsupported section of the chamber is anything but a dumb design. I don't care how reliable it makes feeding. If it was on a Saturday Night Special, all of you would be saying it was a gun only a retard would carry. Now be honest.... ;)

And this is only one of its bad design features.

Ghostdog, you are correct that I specifically mentioned the SA mode on the Beretta and USP as being repeatable. Actually, both are also repeatable in DA mode too, but the USP DA mode pretty much sucks although it did smooth out pretty well with a few hundred DA trigger pulls. I really use it as an emergency mode only, but it is a mode I insist on.

My procedure is to de-cock the USP for normal carry (can't do that with a Glock - can you? :devil: ) but cock it, in the holster, as I'm going into any expected confrontation. If something happens that I'm not expecting before it is cocked, I can always fire the handgun from the hammer down position (can't do that with a 1911). Typical "panic" trigger pulls are around 50#. Best of both worlds as far as I can see. It gives safe carry but can always be fired.

BTW, not having a safety on the handgun is something that Glock did right and is another reason LE carries the guns. Cops panic too and you don't need a safety to prevent them from firing when they need to do so. My USP is variant 3 - de-cocker but no safety. That was a simple modification I made.

The Glock design goes back about 20 years and in my opinion was a bad design even for back then. I understand why it became popular but the design needs updating to fix its bad aspects. And it seems to me that today there are better handguns available.

That really is my point. There are better handguns available for every single thing a Glock is used for.

[GhostDog]

We don't disagree about everything. You make some good points but I still disagree about the Glock trigger. It's advantages outweigh the disadvantages in my humble opinion. The person using the gun has to know the weapon and make their own decision. It's hard to beat a Glock for that first shot and short/quick trigger reset. Based on what you said about how you employ your USP, it seems we both seek the same thing in a carry gun, we just don't agree on how to accomplish it.
Speaking of DA triggers, I only recently became familiar with shooting Beretta pistols (believe it or not) and found the DA trigger on a Beretta to be one of the best (smoothest) I have ever used.
I hope the guys on the forum here can organize the East Tennessee TGO "get together". I would like to meet you guys.

[molonlabetn]

Beretta 92/96D pistols have one of the best DAO triggers on the market... Installing a 92/96D mainspring in a 92/96F gun provides a phenominal DA and SA trigger pull.

[Marswolf]

Have to agree that the 92 has a good DA trigger action, but I still cock it when possible.

[Archimedes]

Glock came around when LE was going through an early fit of political correctness. Those nasty cocked hammers on duty weapons scared the public. Basically, a 1911 with a cocked hammer is the same thing as a Glock as long as you don't use the safety but a less safe Glock for some reason doesn't bother the brain-dead public as much.

A Glock is less safe than a locked'n'loaded 1911 with the saftey off?

BTW, is it possible for a de-cocked, chambered 1911 with the saftey off to fire if enough force is placed on the hammer like the Colt SAAs?

~Archi

[Marswolf]

A Glock is less safe than a locked'n'loaded 1911 with the saftey off?

BTW, is it possible for a de-cocked, chambered 1911 with the saftey off to fire if enough force is placed on the hammer like the Colt SAAs?

~Archi

I consider a cocked and unlocked 1911 to be about the same in safety to a Glock as long as the owner hasn't lightened the 1911 trigger. But you can't put the Glock into a safer mode. It's always ready and that can be either a plus or a minus.

Most 1911s have a half-cock. While not intended as a drop safety, it does function in that mode in guns earlier than the Series 80, that has a firing pin safety. So, for many 1911s it is possible for a fully de-cocked weapon to go off if sufficient force is applied to the hammer. I would expect a gun designed in the 1980s to improve on that, and Series 80 guns actually did fix the problem.

[LiLBucket]

Alright, the East TN TGO meet and make boom is on for sure now!! This thread has got me wanting to test drive some weapons!!


Archi can I test drive your car???!!!:p .........:dropjaw: :drool:
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u79/LiLBucket_photos/427cobra.jpg

[Ramtough47]

Don't want to step on anyone toes but its this simple....DON'T PUT YOUR FINGER ON THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOU HAVE MADE THE DECSION TO SHOOT! This is basic firearm safety.

As far a decocker goes i would perfer glock NOT to have one.Nearly every person i have seen with a gun with a decocker[under pressure] has had a difficult time getting gun into action.Now if you handle your gun daily and practice with it...no problem....most people won't.

In the world of fighting pistols Glock[in my opinion] is the best choice.They won't let you down.

[GhostDog]

I agree! Having said that, I would not carry a Glock w/ 3.5 pound trigger set up for competition. By the same token, I wouldn't carry a 1911 w/ 3 lb comp trigger. The 5lb factory trigger is just fine and will work as advertised. Fast first shot and quick trigger reset, what else could you ask for?
Putting a heavier trigger in the Glock (8lb/12lb New York triggers) doesn't fix anything. It is simply a liability/let's cover our butts move by administrators (who are probably not shooters). It's no different than making a DA/SA revolver into a DOA. This was done by some PDs in the past... didn't work.
Equipment is a one time expense, training is on-going. One is cheap and the other requires a COMMITMENT to continuing work and spending money. Which do you thing the average admin type would choose?
I understand Mars' argument to a degree and would agree that there is a minimum for a trigger on a carry gun. We just don't agree on where to draw the line. The purpose of a defensive pistol is to defend oneself and others. The gun should be set up so that the shooter can hit the target if he/she must use the gun. Remember, we also responsible for the bullets that miss our intended target too. If you choose a DA/SA, SA, striker fired pistol or DA revolver, it will still come down to training and experience (and probably some luck). Maybe we're spending too much time worrying about equipment and not enough on things that are more important like awareness, tactics, and training. Unfortunately, all those things are more expensive and require more work to get and maintain. Maybe that is the real problem, hmm....... could it be that too many people (police and just us regular joes) prefer the quick/cheap/easy "fix" to a real examination of the problem at hand? If I have my finger on the trigger and am: holstering my pistol or running over uneven ground (you name your own situation) and something happens (I fall down/I am startled/someone screams at me), do you think it will matter what type the gun is? Just something to think about.

[molonlabetn]

Just a question, since I have never owned a Glock... What is the consensus on installing a NY-1 trigger spring in conjunction with a 3.5# connector? I have 'heard' that this setup results in a smoother trigger pull, with little reduction in pull weight. What about a NY-2 with a 3.5# connector?

If I owned a Glock... this would (probably) be the first thing that I would do*, to improve the (IMHO) spongy, creepy factory pull. I personally don't have a problem with a long trigger pull, so long as it is steady and breaks clean.









*after checking myself into a psych ward

[GhostDog]

I tried a pistol w/ that set up. It had a snappier trigger return and slightly less take-up, but I couldn't tell much difference. One of those "princess and the pea" things. I prefer the stock set up.
Glocks may not be for you. However, Glocks are like any other pistol. You have to work to become familiar w/ the gun/trigger. Modifications can also be made to S&W DA revolvers, but just shooting the gun will smooth up the action and help you get familiar w/ it (avoiding screwing around w/ the gun).
Just my opinion...

[Archimedes]

Bucket, just keep it under 150.

I've never used a firearm with a de-cocker, so I really can't input there.

I agree that it's a bad idea to make too many modifications to a handgun that may one day be needed to save a life.

~Archi

[Marswolf]

Sorry guys, but I think one of you owes me a new keyboard. I laughed so hard I spit coke on it.

I spent much of the day in meetings over at the VA including some teleconferencing with folks up in DC.

During one break, I heard one of the DC guys mention "those pain in the ass Glock people who go around talking stupid about keeping your finger off of the trigger instead of getting a decent gun." :D

His words - not mine. Don't shoot the messenger.

Always having good firearms safety practices are an ideal, but a pipe dream. It doesn't happen in real life. A good gun can compensate for minor brain-farts before it requires surgery.

But I'm beating a dead horse. You get it or you don't.

And in the circles I run in, the Glock is not considered a "fighting pistol". It's just an adequate cheaper compromise for a good handgun.

[GhostDog]

I don't want to hurt your feelings, but most of us out here in flyover country don't put much stock in anything coming out of DC. :D

[GhostDog]

I'll post this in the hope that it might help someone on the board. The guy who taught me most of what I know about shooting and handguns (not that it's that much in my case, but that's my fault not his) also taught me about what he calls "stacking".
We all know the 4 rules of gun safety (all guns are loaded, never cover anything you aren't willing to destroy, finger off trigger until you're ready to fire, and know your target and backstop). If you violate one rule, you will make yourself look stupid (ND) but no one will get hurt. Violate two rules and somebody's gonna get hurt or killed. Thus the term "stacking". It doesn't matter who you are, how good you are, or what kind of gun you carry, this still applies. Do people cover each other w/ finger on trigger in the heat of whatever might be going on? Yes, they do... but it still requires a trigger PULL even in this situation. Do police/military/everyone else get shot by their own sometimes? You know they do. Don't think that's a gun problem, but I may be wrong. You tell me.;)

[towerclimber37]

Ghostdog, you're absolutely right. The only reason it happens less with military personnel is that they train more...alot more.

[Marswolf]

I don't want to hurt your feelings, but most of us out here in flyover country don't put much stock in anything coming out of DC. :D

I understand that. :D

We had a dozen people in three time zones and countries. Median age around 45 I'd say. Mostly combat military (current or retired) but some active LE. I told them about the Glock feud here and got their input. All of us have owned Glocks; some of us carried them at one time. Current collective Glock ownership of the group - one - and it stays in a nightstand.

Tungsten, we need a dead horse emoticon. :up:

[LiLBucket]

Bucket, just keep it under 150.

[Napolean Dynamite voice on] Yessssssssssss [Napolean Dynamite voice off]

Glock Safety thread,

.......:popcorn: ..........


Actually, I'm learning quite a bit here really! Honest!

[Marswolf]

I'm learning too.

Apart from my POing all the Glock owners, I've enjoyed getting the responses from them.

[LegalRaptor]

I have followed this thread with interest. I have a G19, carry an M&Pc .40. Mostly, I shoot the G19 in my local shooting league (not ready for the bigtime in that department!) The best thing I see about this debate is the courtesy displayed by everyone! I've seen arguments on other forums that devolved into embarrassing name calling or worse, but the level of civility here is great! I know I haven't added anything to the topic, but you guys are far more knowledgeable than me, so I'll just continue to lurk.:popcorn:

[jackdog]

Happy to here your having fun. Hey if you have any 200.00 Glocks around I will buy them.

[Slipstream]

Common sense seems to be a rare commodity in todays world

Ain't that the damn truth.

[towerclimber37]

hahahah Hey Jackdog...are your Glocks dishwasher safe?
Legal Raptor...ya know..we're all polite because we know the other guy is armed!:D
J/K.
all of us here realize that ugliness is NOT beneficial to the board, the members here or ourselves. Plus, I think we enjoy the debate for the sake of knowledge..not to hammer a point home.
It helps!


Tupperware party= Glock convention. :devil:
hows that for name calling?
bwaaaahahahahahahahahah

[Archimedes]

You're nuts, tower. :)

I mean that as a compliment.

~Archi

[jackdog]

I really prefer the car wash hand units,really gets her clean, and bouncing it off the concrete walls and floor, gives me a kinda abuse test as well.