Training pictures

[Shay VanVlymen]

If you've got training pictures to add, POST THEM!

These are some from the last High Risk Contractor Medical Package.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b379/jamesyeager/HRCCMedicalPackage-CamdenTN-April9-.jpg

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b379/jamesyeager/HRCCMedicalPackage-CamdenTN-Apri-2.jpg

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b379/jamesyeager/HRCCMedicalPackage-CamdenTN-Apri-3.jpg

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b379/jamesyeager/HRCCMedicalPackage-CamdenTN-Apri-4.jpg

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b379/jamesyeager/HRCCMedicalPackage-CamdenTN-Apri-5.jpg

[molonlabetn]

Question:

What is the significance of the trend for one or two participants to be fielding Kalishnikovs while the rest have ARs? Are these groups actually issued varying weapon platforms as contractors? Or, was this a simple matter of personal preference?

Forgive me if this was a redundant question...

[Shay VanVlymen]

Our photoshop guy cleaned some of the more interesting ones up and added our logo.

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c296/gunguy19/classx4.jpg

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c296/gunguy19/ri01.jpg

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c296/gunguy19/xclass2.jpg

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c296/gunguy19/classx4.jpg

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c296/gunguy19/clasxc5.jpg

[Shay VanVlymen]

Question:

What is the significance of the trend for one or two participants to be fielding Kalishnikovs while the rest have ARs? Are these groups actually issued varying weapon platforms as contractors? Or, was this a simple matter of personal preference?

Forgive me if this was a redundant question...

Many times you don't know what weapon you are going to be issued on a contract. And some times it's just simple personal preference. Right now ammo costs could be playing a part as well.....

[saintsfanbrian]

Question:

What is the significance of the trend for one or two participants to be fielding Kalishnikovs while the rest have ARs? Are these groups actually issued varying weapon platforms as contractors? Or, was this a simple matter of personal preference?

Forgive me if this was a redundant question...

I think it was a case of bring what you own. Since you are a civilian contractor, likely you will supply your own firearms that you are comfortable with.

[Shay VanVlymen]

More:
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b379/jamesyeager/HRCCMedicalPackage-CamdenTN-DayT-1.jpg


http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b379/jamesyeager/HRCCMedicalPackage-CamdenTN-DayTwo2.jpg

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b379/jamesyeager/DayFour011.jpg

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b379/jamesyeager/HRCCMedicalPackage-CamdenTN-DayT-6.jpg

[molonlabetn]

I think it was a case of bring what you own. Since you are a civilian contractor, likely you will supply your own firearms that you are comfortable with.

That could be a potential logistics nightmare... unless each person was responsible for providing their own ammo, mags and spare parts!

Honestly... if I was going overseas, I'd want an FAL carbine and a P226 9mm.

I can certainly understand the ammo prices issue being a big part of the decision!

[Shay VanVlymen]

Last one for today. Medical classes are fun....

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b379/jamesyeager/FinalX021.jpg

[jackdog]

looks like hollywood to me.

[db99wj]

More:



http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b379/jamesyeager/HRCCMedicalPackage-CamdenTN-DayTwo2.jpg






Looks like a muzzle in the dirt :eek:

Love the pics by the way!

Me and a guy were talking about the medical training class today!

[jackdog]

Yep sure does look like it. That would be a good what not to do training pic.

[Marswolf]

:popcorn: ....

[Tungsten]

I guess for the sake of clarity, Shay are any of the trainers combat veterans? I looked at the profiles and most seem to have some law enforcement background. But of coursed, some of the folks here are combat veterans and I think that is what some of the critiquing comes from.

[Rifleman]

I guess for the sake of clarity, Shay are any of the trainers combat veterans? I looked at the profiles and most seem to have some law enforcement background. But of coursed, some of the folks here are combat veterans and I think that is what some of the critiquing comes from.

I cannot answer for Shay, but there are veterans of combat in those photos. I can say that because I recognize them.

More to the matter, what is being taught in that course IS NOT military operations. Rules of engagement and SOPs are much different for civilians working PSD. The majority of people who received standard training in the military would not know where to begin on many of the topics covered in that particular course. I have not taken that course, but I plan to soon.

I have taken several other courses from TR. I have learned how to survive an ambush at an ATM, the legal implications of shooting someone, how to thwart a home invasion and protecting my family. They do not teach you any of that stuff in the Army, Marines, Navy, or Air Force. I would not use someones service in the military as the basis for measuring competence in teaching every subject matter involving personal defense, or defense of a client.

If TR was teaching how to direct artillery, calling in close air support, attacking enemy emplacements, or any other type of military maneuvers this would be a valid point. Some of the instructor I have met through TR have also done those things to great success and would be qualified to teach that, but why would they? You can get all that by enlisting. Many of these private training companies are in business because they are teaching things that are not taught by the government, or at least not yet.

[Marswolf]

Problem is we don't see any training photos of how to survive an ambush at an ATM or how to thwart a home invasion and protect the family.

What I see are a bunch of guys having fun pretending to be combatants.

I don't see anything wrong with that if it's for fun and it does, I guess, have some training value. But some of us who have recent or current combat experience have been critiquing the photos and having a good laugh on another board. There has been a lot written here about training correctly. A lot of what we see is not correct technique. I'm not going to get into a long-winded discussion of all the things we see, but don't imagine this training done this way is going to teach you the right way to "operate".

That said, I'd probably have a lot of fun running around with these guys.

[Tommy Ferguson Jr.]

You probably won't see any pictures about surviving an ATM assault, etc from their High Risk Contractor Medical package anyway.

[utarch00]

Great PICS

[Tungsten]

You probably won't see any pictures about surviving an ATM assault, etc from their High Risk Contractor Medical package anyway.
Very true!

[saintsfanbrian]

That's kind of the point, Tommy. The training pictures are great, but lets see some primarily from Tactical Pistol or whatever it is they call it. Fewer pictures of burning cars and more pictures of mom with the baby carriage/stroller defending herself from armed thug at the grocery store parking lot.

[Tungsten]

That's kind of the point, Tommy. The training pictures are great, but lets see some primarily from Tactical Pistol or whatever it is they call it. Fewer pictures of burning cars and more pictures of mom with the baby carriage/stroller defending herself from armed thug at the grocery store parking lot.
I'm sure Shay would be happy to post some more photos from other classes, but after speaking with him yesterday it is fairly obvious that he's starting to feel like he can't win for losing around here.

He posts photos of things burning and blowing up because people generally enjoy seeing that, and the photos end up getting picked apart. He posts pictures of people shooting in a Fighting Pistol class, in the rain, and people comment that it looks like someone had their finger on the trigger at the wrong time.

If I were in his shoes, I'd be a little dismayed as well. Maybe if folks cut him some slack, he'd post more photos of whatever you all want to see.

:shrug:

[Tommy Ferguson Jr.]

Or...just go take a class and take your own pictures.

[saintsfanbrian]

That's the plan for later this year, beginning of next.

[molonlabetn]

I'm sure Shay would be happy to post some more photos from other classes, but after speaking with him yesterday it is fairly obvious that he's starting to feel like he can't win for losing around here.

He posts photos of things burning and blowing up because people generally enjoy seeing that, and the photos end up getting picked apart. He posts pictures of people shooting in a Fighting Pistol class, in the rain, and people comment that it looks like someone had their finger on the trigger at the wrong time.

If I were in his shoes, I'd be a little dismayed as well. Maybe if folks cut him some slack, he'd post more photos of whatever you all want to see.

:shrug:

Good point Tungsten.

I have no problem looking at cool pictures... Plus, nowhere in these latest threads has this training been touted as the only way to go by Shay. I prefer a balanced input, we can all make our own decisions from there.

Shay, regardless of where we agree and disagree, I respect your input. Especially most recently.

Thanks,

[Marswolf]

He posts photos of things burning and blowing up because people generally enjoy seeing that, and the photos end up getting picked apart.

He doesn't expect that posted training pictures won't be picked apart? What we do here is very polite compared to other sites.

[saintsfanbrian]

+ 1 molon. Those were my problems with TR from the beginning.

[Tungsten]

He doesn't expect that posted training pictures won't be picked apart? What we do here is very polite compared to other sites.
I think it's more about the reasons why his photos are picked apart moreso than the fact that they are.

[Marswolf]

I think it's more about the reasons why his photos are picked apart moreso than the fact that they are.

I think that may seem like a valid point to the pickee, but the reason for that may also be valid.

Actually, I think most of us would pick apart about any training photos from anyone, but I have to admit there is an undercurrent of hostility that has developed here for what may be legitimate reasons.

[molonlabetn]

The hostility may be legitimate, I agree, but I also think that there is no need to beat a dead horse... On the other hand, any professional should be willing to accept some degree of criticism based on their perception by potential customers.

Again, Tungsten made a good point... let's not paint any organization with too broad of a brush.

The issue of free advertising is an administrative issue, but then again, this is an open forum. I can easily choose what threads to view, and which ones to avoid... I'd rather not have someone else doing that for me.

[Marswolf]

The hostility may be legitimate, I agree, but I also think that there is no need to beat a dead horse... On the other hand, any professional should be willing to accept some degree of criticism based on their perception by potential customers.

Again, Tungsten made a good point... let's not paint any organization with too broad of a brush.

The issue of free advertising is an administrative issue, but then again, this is an open forum. I can easily choose what threads to view, and which ones to avoid... I'd rather not have someone else doing that for me.

As you say, the free advertising issue isn't part of my purview. That's a done issue for me.

The horse will die when he is allowed to do so. The critics are not the ones who keep the issue stirred up. New posts telling and showing how wonderful pseudo-military training is does that.

And potential customers are not the ones who should be critiquing the training. The people doing that should be people who work in the field and have experience with real bullets coming back at them. As I recently commented elsewhere, my force on force training uses real bullets on both sides.

[molonlabetn]

As you say, the free advertising issue isn't part of my purview. That's a done issue for me.

The horse will die when he is allowed to do so. The critics are not the ones who keep the issue stirred up. New posts telling and showing how wonderful pseudo-military training is does that.

And potential customers are not the ones who should be critiquing the training. The people doing that should be people who work in the field and have experience with real bullets coming back at them. As I recently commented elsewhere, my force on force training uses real bullets on both sides.

I totally agree with you that the folks who rely on their training to stay alive in a conflict are the ones who should have the last word on critiquing what works and what doesn't. That's why you don't see me climbing anyone's ass about technical mistakes seen in pictures... I'm not qualified to. However, since you are qualified to critique such things, I think that's perfectly appropriate and relevant. But, one doesn't have to be a combat vet to form a general opinion from what one does know, albeit limited.

I just think that such things could be discussed with less hostility from both sides. That's all.

I enjoy the pictures for their entertainment value... I think that doing that would be fun. But, would I use it? Probably not.

[Marswolf]

Well, the pictures are entertaining. ;)

[myheartsinTN]

So what is wrong with a muzzle in the dirt. I'm asking because I want to learn. Looks like a less than ideal position yet fairly safe given the circumstances of the shot.

I wonder how many of these people are now in Iraq or Afghanistan. Are these really civilian contractors looking to brush up on skills. Or are they weekend warriors looking to test out their new 5.11 gear complete with blood type and flag patches.

Yep sure does look like it. That would be a good what not to do training pic.

[Punisher84]

A muzzle in the dirt is never a good thing, period. Basically it's one of those things that is fine if the ground is solid, but it's bad weapon retention. I like single point slings, but you have to train with them properly. If that had been Iraq or Afghanistan or in the dirt on a rainy day that guy has got a crudded barrel and that can cause problems.

Some of the people training I'm sure are civilian contractors and are trying to get some refresher or advanced skills from the class. Others are probably just having fun and it's not a serious effort for them.

[molonlabetn]

So what is wrong with a muzzle in the dirt. I'm asking because I want to learn. Looks like a less than ideal position yet fairly safe given the circumstances of the shot.

A blocked barrel WILL take your weapon out of commission in short order, if it doesn't blow up in your face and injure you.

I wonder how many of these people are now in Iraq or Afghanistan. Are these really civilian contractors looking to brush up on skills. Or are they weekend warriors looking to test out their new 5.11 gear complete with blood type and flag patches.

Don't know numbers or percentages, but I am aware of examples of each... It's a mixture. Some are LEO, some military, some ex-military, some seeking or involved in contractor work, some wannabees, some doing it for the fun factor or general fitness/preparedness...

No reason is necessarily wrong, per se... The important thing is to have a reason, and a clear understanding of it.

[myheartsinTN]

Good to know. But how is that weapon going to go off with out a finger on the trigger. I would guess that weapon is on safe in that pic. The guy shooting is using a different weapon.

I understand what you guys are saying and I agree its not a great place. But given the circumstances of the pic it looks safe to me.

A blocked barrel WILL take your weapon out of commission in short order, if it doesn't blow up in your face and injure you.

[saintsfanbrian]

The weapon itself is safe until he goes to fire it. If the barrel is plugged, it could cause serious damage to the firearm or the shooter, Then again, it would be nothing like the finger in the barrel that Bugs Bunny always did.

[Marswolf]

I can't tell if he is using the second rifle as a field expedient monopod or just accidentally dropping the muzzle into the dirt. Either way, it's not a good idea. Your life depends on your weapons. You need to take care of them.

[Phantom6]

Marswolf wrote:
Your life depends on your weapons. You need to take care of them.

So true, So true! Even without the barrel becoming obstructed, the muzzle is the last part of the bore that the projectile passes through. If you bugger that up you could be missing your target. Obviously not a good thing to do when your target is throwing steel down range at you as fast as his little AK can sling it. That is why it is always suggested that even in cleaning your gun you should always clean the barrel from the breach end. Don't want to take a chance on fouling the muzzle.

[Marswolf]

Phantom6, I probably should start another topic on this but I'll ask your opinion here anyway. For that matter, the question is open to everyone.

What do you think of Otis cleaning kits?

http://www.otisgun.com/

http://www.otisgun.com/photo/40.jpg

[Len]

Phantom6, I probably should start another topic on this but I'll ask your opinion here anyway. For that matter, the question is open to everyone.

What do you think of Otis cleaning kits?

http://www.otisgun.com/



Mars:
Funny you should ask... I just today ordered their shotgun cleaning kit. Have heard nothing but good things from people I respect. Supposedly, the Otis kit will allow quick and efficient cleaning of major components in one step. We shall see...
-Len

[Marswolf]

I've been using one for several years. The thing can fit on your belt and cleans everything from, .17 caliber to 10 gauge.

Probably not the cleaning gear to use if you are in a hurry. It takes a little longer, but cleans the proper way, from breach to muzzle.

[Phantom6]

Phantom6, I probably should start another topic on this but I'll ask your opinion here anyway. For that matter, the question is open to everyone.

What do you think of Otis cleaning kits?

http://www.otisgun.com/

http://www.otisgun.com/photo/40.jpg

I like 'em. That's how I was taught to clean firearms.

Its amazing how things develop. My dad used to take a length of stout but small diameter cord and tie a knot in the end of it. He'd cut a small hole in his patch which would not let the knot pass through and clean his pistols with that (our rifles were bolt action and the shotguns were hinged actions so a brass rod through the breach end was used for them). He later used a length of large diameter weedeater line, cut a sharp end on one end and melted the other end of it into a knot. That's how I grew up cleaning guns. We'd only brush the bores down about once a year which of course in the old days meant carefully going in through the muzzle end on a revolver.

A friend of mine "liberated" an OTIS system from the morass of USA Supply and sent it to me. I've used it and found that it works extreamly well. Certainly much better than cotton cord or weedeater line. Due to it's compactness, its stowability is unmatched. Because of what I do, I clean firearms in volume so I carry a large bag of cotton patches, a super sized bottle of solvent and three different types of lubricant so all of this necessetates my carrying my stuff around in a tackle box. Out the window goes compactness and stowability. :)

[Marswolf]

I have to admit that the Otis kit is normally supplemented by other cleaning gear. But it all fits in a mechanics soft tool bag that is easy to throw in. But in a pinch, the Otis kit by itself is usable as it comes.

[jackdog]

never tried one, but you guys got me interested, so I guess I better find one.

[Len]

Got my Otis shotgun cleaning kit the other day and have found it useful. It provides an effective way of cleaning a shotgun in the proper way (breech-forward, not muzzle-backward) without field stripping. It did a fine job on my Mossberg 535 pump, and I imagine it would be even easier with break-actions. It is also small, easily packed in a range bag and even has a belt loop if you want it really handy. Even came with a how-to CD.

But...

In my experience, the effectiveness of cleaning tools lies primarily with the user. With anything but the lowest-end cleaning supplies, if you follow proper technique and are serious about keeping your guns clean, they will be clean. On the other hand, you can buy the best, but if you use it poorly, or not at all, it wont do you any good (or may even cause harm.)

IMHO, if it works for you and your firearms, then great. The rest is just hype.:2cents:

[0down]

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