Concealed Carry Thought....

[Loaded247]

Years ago, I read some opinions on a law enforcement forum, as to how various officers would handle stopping a civilian that was legally carrying a concealed weapon. Mind you, this was some years back, and I believe that the attitude of MOST law enforcement officers has adjusted to the situation, but some of the opinions I read back then were pretty varied:

Some officers simply wanted to know the location of the weapon (the common approach nowdays), whereas some wished to take the weapon 'for the officer's safety', and some would go so far as to unload the weapon. Some went further, wanting to put the unloaded weapon in the citizens trunk, but I heard even more radical opinions. Some felt that running the serial number of the weapon to determine whether or not it was stolen was the preferred approach, whereas I heard a couple of officers say that not only would they run the s.n., but they would then KEEP the weapon, and take it to the station, not returning it to the individual until the individual produced a receipt proving ownership!!!!!

Needless to say, officer's taking such an ignorant approach could potentially lose their a$$, but still, such attitudes caused me enough concern that I felt that I, as a citizen, had to put something in place to give me some means of protection. Once again, this was several years ago, in another state, and prior to my own involvement in law enforcement.

So, if I get stopped nowdays, in addition to being polite and courteous, I hand the officer my license, insurance, and Handgun Carry Permit, inform the officer that I am in fact carrying (all while keeping my hands on the steering wheel), and I await the officer's directions at that point. I know that if the officer's run my record info, the only thing that should come up (depending on the system) is some traffic tickets from 14 years ago...:)

If any questions regarding the legality of the weapon come up, then I ALSO carry with me a laminated 'copy' of the receipt for the purchase of the weapon (I carry a copy in my wallet, with the originals stored in my safe). If all of that fails, then as a last resort, I can pull out my LEO I.D., which I prefer not to do (personal reasons), and I believe if things got to that point, I would be under pretty extraordinary circumstances anyway....

To 97% of officers, if you are a legal citizen who is legally armed and you have a clean record, nothing more needs to be said. Still, I started carrying a copy of the receipt years ago, and for some reason, I was just recently reflecting on the fact that I still do it.....and I was wondering if anyone else did this?

As a final thought, let me add my own opinion on concealed carry: I believe that every law abiding citizen should have the right to carry WITHOUT QUESTION. I took an oath to uphold the Constitution, and part of the 2nd. Amendment to that Constitution states; "The rights of the people to keep and bare arms shall not be infringed." I say this last part because I don't want someone coming back asking what my opinion on carry is...that IS my opinion!!

[db99wj]

Ok, I got pulled over on Sam Cooper about 2 weeks ago by a Memphis Police Officer. By the time I got pulled over, stopped, windows rolled down (I have tinted windows and well I roll them down) I had my hands on the top of my steering wheel in an open (fingers pointing at the sky) position, the LEO was already walking my way, so I didn't get my info out, he asked for the DL and I then said "before I reach for my license, I want to inform you that I am a handgun permit holder and I am armed, my handgun is in my console to my right," He said thank you for informing me of that, go ahead and get you license out, I pulled my wallet, gave him the permit and my DL, permit on top. He said thanks, he said you were doing 52 in a 40 (the part of Sam Cooper that is new and not the expressway goes from 55 to 40, not 45mph as I thought), I said yes sir. He went back to his car, came back with a ticket for 45 in a 40 and explained that I could pay it or go to court and all likely hood it would be dismissed completely, might have to pay court costs, it will not go on your record as points or insurance. I asked him about our conversation about the handgun and what he preferred, he said everything you did was perfect, I never felt uncomfortable with the situation. He said that the only problems he has had are with other LEO's off duty! He said they typically get out of the car and they have a gun strapped to on them and then the situation gets very tense, very quickly because there was no warning!

[towerclimber37]

sheesh...
I guess way back when was a simpler time...
I was stationed in Ft. Hood Texas, and had a few days off...so I decided to go diving down in Port Aransas.
In Texas, there was a law at the time that if you travel more than 2 counties from your home county, you can carry a loaded pistol in the vehicle with you.
I got pulled over with a 357 k frame (smith and wesson stainless) on the seat next to me in my truck.
the bed of my truck had dive gear and a ditty bag..etc.
the DPS guy walked up and gave the truck an optical once over...and said "is that pistol loaded?"
I said "yessir..it wouldn't be much good if it wasn't"...he laughed and asked me if I knew how fast I was going...
truthfully I didn't until I saw his lights..and told him so.
he just said "slow it down and have a safe trip".
I was doing something like 78-80 in a 70 mile an hour zone..
I thanked him and assured him I would..and that was that!
*sigh* oh to wish for the simpler times...

Mike of course told me HIS story about being stopped...get him to tell ya about it!
its hilarious!

[Punisher84]

I've yet to be pulled over or have had a situation to show my permit period. Kind of hope to keep it that way lol.

[skwashdem]

If I get pulled over, I roll down the window and wait with both hands on the wheel till they get there. When they're done asking for license, registration, and proof of insurance, I reply with: "OK, but first, the law says I have to inform you that have a Tennessee Handgun Permit, and am armed. For my own safety, my hands will be near my gun while I get my wallet out." Being up front about being armed and being cooperative generally helps start the process off on the right foot.

I've only had one officer who wanted to put my weapon in his car while he conducted the stop, and that isn't something I really mind. We don't have enough cops, and if they want to take a precaution about it, that's OK with me.

I also had one state trooper who asked me to step out of the car and walk over to the passenger side of his cruiser with him while he ran my license and permit so that his ass wouldn't get run over on I-81 southbound. He didn't take my weapon, he just told me that he wouldn't draw his if I didn't draw mine.

The other times I've been stopped, they've just wanted to know where the weapon is, and that's the end of the discussion after they find out my permit is valid.

@ SSSTactical
I've yet to be pulled over or have had a situation to show my permit period. Kind of hope to keep it that way lol.

Go to Virginia, drive the speed limit on I-81 between Roanoke and Radford. Trust me, they'll find you and think you're a Virginian who somehow managed to get a car without the silly county inspection sticker, and the front license plate.

[saintsfanbrian]

I have yet to be pulled over since I got my permit. I keep my license and permit in the same sleeve of my wallet along with my proof of insurance. I would get that out and wait for the officer to arrive. I figure I have a couple of seconds in which I can freely grab my wallet since I keep it in a front pocket and often times is under my leg on the front seat. Now that the top is off of the jeep for a while I might not move a muscle until el police officer is at the window.

[macho999]

I keep my license and permit in the cup holder and when I see the blue lights I already have that stuff in my hand with my hands on the wheel by the time Johnny Law gets out, stretches, adjusts his belt, puts on his big hat, puts shower cap on said hat if it's raining, and strolls up to my window.

I keep my registration and proof of insurance in a big red envelope marked "Important Papers" so after we both pretend like we don't know how fast I was going I tell him that stuff is in the glove box and he says "Ok get it."

I have it down to a science. If you drive around in VA any length of time you get a lot of practice.

[jackdog]

I got stopped on I 24 at exit 24 last Thursday on the way home from the TGA meeting. I was doing 72, with almost no traffic northbound. Saw lights in my rear view mirror but they looked a little funny. I got off I proceeded to a well lit gas station. an unmarked white suv pulled in behind me. Turned out he was a state trooper. He came to my Isuzu trooper and asked for my license ETC,ETC. I informed of my permit status, and that I was carrying.
He asked why I did not just pull off on to the shoulder of I 24. I told him that from my vantage point his vehicle looked a little suspect to me. He said that was fine and better safe than sorry. Ended up I had a tail light out. He never wrote me a ticket, thanked me for the permit and gun heads up, and once again told me my action to get to a well lighted area, showed good common sense. Officer was a nice guy we shot the bull about guns for about ten minutes.

[Punisher84]

Go to Virginia, drive the speed limit on I-81 between Roanoke and Radford. Trust me, they'll find you and think you're a Virginian who somehow managed to get a car without the silly county inspection sticker, and the front license plate.

I have it down to a science. If you drive around in VA any length of time you get a lot of practice.

I think I'm just gonna stay out of Virginia. :eek:

[Kingfish]

"OK, but first, the law says I have to inform you that have a Tennessee Handgun Permit, and am armed.

Tennessee is not a "Must inform" state. Although I plan to (still waiting on my permit.)

[skwashdem]

39-17-1351

The permittee shall have the permit in the holder's immediate possession at all times when carrying a handgun and shall display the permit on demand of a law enforcement officer.




I've always assumed that the section above indicated must-inform. And in the carry class, they told us we had to inform at traffic stops. It was even in that old video they show up that the state made when shall issue was first adopted.

[molonlabetn]

No... it means that if the LEO finds out that you are carrying he can demand that you produce a handgun carry permit, and you must do so.

It does not mean that you have to volunteer your permit during any encounter during which the fact that you are armed is irrelevant ( such as a traffic stop... speeding is speeding, armed or otherwise doesn't matter )

It is considered a courtesy to inform... whether or not I would do so depends on the circumstance, such as a situation in which I had to exit my vehicle ( traffic accident, etc... ).

[macho999]

Yes on demand means you must produce the permit when they want to see it. Sometimes it's not the most tactful thing to start hollering that you have a gun, like at an accident or when you're watching some guys pound on each other and the police show up and you step forward as a witness.

[DaveTN]

As a final thought, let me add my own opinion on concealed carry: I believe that every law abiding citizen should have the right to carry WITHOUT QUESTION. I took an oath to uphold the Constitution, and part of the 2nd. Amendment to that Constitution states; "The rights of the people to keep and bare arms shall not be infringed." I say this last part because I don't want someone coming back asking what my opinion on carry is...that IS my opinion!!
It’s good that you have that opinion. But are you a sworn Police Officer? The laws of the state of Tennessee and your implied interpretation of the Constitution are not in agreement.

[Loaded247]

Dave, yes, I am in fact a sworn Law Enforcement Officer, and I KNOW that the laws of the state of Tennessee (and many other states) don't strictly follow the U.S. Constitution....that was my point.

[towerclimber37]

Dave,
You'd be suprised how many good police officers are out there that actually believe in the constitution.
I think that if it ever came down to cases, there would be quite a few police officers that would uphold the constitution instead of following the left leaning socialist agenda that would remove our right to keep an bear arms.

[mrnord]

I've been pulled over once while carrying. I waited w/ hands on wheel, informed the officer, he took my gun and unloaded it and placed it in the back of his cruiser. We conducted our business, he thanked me for the heads up and "nice Glock, looks just like mine" gave it back and asked me to wait for him to leave before reloading it.

Carl

[DaveTN]

Dave,
You'd be suprised how many good police officers are out there that actually believe in the constitution.
I think that if it ever came down to cases, there would be quite a few police officers that would uphold the constitution instead of following the left leaning socialist agenda that would remove our right to keep an bear arms.
I don’t think I would be surprised; I was a Police Officer. I believed in the entire Constitution; I didn’t pick and choose the parts that I agreed with. I also swore a duty to uphold the laws of my state; again not just the ones I agreed with. A cop that does that is a hypocrite.

If a Police Officer cannot in good faith enforce the laws that he has sworn to uphold then he needs to work towards getting those laws changed or he needs to get out. I got out.

[Loaded247]

Dave, very well said.

[Phantom6]

I've always assumed that the section above indicated must-inform. And in the carry class, they told us we had to inform at traffic stops. It was even in that old video they show up that the state made when shall issue was first adopted.

Yeah, that's the video where;

the instructor at Donaldson says "And this is a 357 magnum revolver. It's the most popular handgun"
It plainly says that you can not carry in any business that sells alcohol
In the traffic stop scenario at the end the girl does not get a ticket for traveling 70 in a 55 MPH speed zone.and I could go on and on with mistakes in that video.

I don't say a word about my permit or pistol until I am asked to move in such a way that will either reveal my pistol or put my hand in close proximity to my pistol.

[Branket]

the instructor at Donaldson says "And this is a 357 magnum revolver. It's the most popular handgun" He also says that the glock on the table is chambered in .357 magnum.

[jackdog]

Wow 357 magnum glock, I want one of those

[Phantom6]

towerclimber37 wrote:
Mike of course told me HIS story about being stopped...get him to tell ya about it! its hilarious!


I was stopped in my range buggy (van) for rolling through a stop sign without coming to a complete stop and subsequently a break light violation by a rookie officer with his trainer in the car with him. I rolled my window down, put my left arm and hand on the window sill and had my right hand at 12 o'clock on the wheel. Rookie approaches close to the van body as he should while in my mirror I see John, his trainer, no doubt waiting to see the rookie's reaction and with a big ol' s**t eating grin on his face, sitting back in the cruiser. We go through the usual pleasantries with the rookie asking me if I know the reason for the stop. I tell him it was a simple case of HUA. A blank look came across his face which then turned into an obviously fake "Oh yeah, I get it" look but quickly returned to a "huh"? look. I let him roll that around in his little rookie head a moment and then said Head Up Ass. After a nervous giggle he says "oh,... a, oh yeah and you also have a break light out. Can I see your license and registration along with your proof of insurance please"? I saw John coming up the other side of the van as I said sure but before I do I need to let you know that- and before I could finish John's approach had drawn the rookie's gaze through my window, beyond my shoulder and across the middle seat of the van where his eyes fell on my mini-14 with black polymer stock, my SKS with black polymer casino stock, my 870 which is set up as a fighting shotgun with, what else? Yup, a black polymer stock and my extra XD-9 in it's holster anlong with a couple of loose stainless 2 inch .38's. I watched as the color drained from this kid's face and I'm pretty sure I heard the sound of him soiling himself. He was frozen and had I been the terrorist he was at the moment, thinking he had run up on he would have had 2 rounds from my .22 Walther P-22 (which I had in the door pocket) in his cranial-occular area. John is laughing out loud by now as he calls the kid back to the back of the van. Then the kid returns and says "never mind Mr. Crow just get that break light fixed." Then he turns and walks rather stiffly back toward his car.

Now this wasn't a set up. The training officer just knows me and figured I'd have a rifle or two (at least) in the back seat of the range buggy as I left the office. BTW there was no ammo in magazines and all actions were locked open except on the pistols.

[Phantom6]

[/list]He also says that the glock on the table is chambered in .357 magnum.

Hey, don't say I didn't warn you about that movie before I forced you to watch it for your carry permit class.:D

[Branket]

Hey, don't say I didn't warn you about that movie before I forced you to watch it for your carry permit class.:D

You definitely gave us fair warning. It was alright though as we had out fair share of laughs at the video's expense.

[SMSTRICK]

I have been pulled over twice since I have been living in this state for the past seven years and have always presented my permit with my license. I also tell the officer that I am armed and where the weapon is BEFORE being asked. But,.....I do not feel that I have to PROOVE ownership . The officer can the numbers on the gun to see wheather or not the weapon is reported stolen if there is qusetion or cause to do so. There is no law in this state which states that a law abiding citizen is required to show proof of ownwership of all personal property on the person.
I mean no disrespect when I say this, but I have seen too many instances where local and county law enforcement are unclear as to the gun laws in the state of Tn. I think that more time should be taken with officers these days to educate the officers regarding these matters. I have always heard that "ignorance of the law is no excuse." If this applies to the average law abiding citizen, then the same should apply to law enforcement.......I respect the fact that officers are not lawyers, ......BUT more information and education needs to be implemented.

[Marswolf]

I mean no disrespect when I say this, but I have seen too many instances where local and county law enforcement are unclear as to the gun laws in the state of Tn.

I have to agree with you. I work with them a lot and some of the LEOs have some strange ideas about what the law is. I will say in their defense that some of the gun laws are written in a confusing manner and sometimes interpreted by the spirit of the law rather than the letter of it.

[SMSTRICK]

I have to agree with you. I work with them a lot and some of the LEOs have some strange ideas about what the law is. I will say in their defense that some of the gun laws are written in a confusing manner and sometimes interpreted by the spirit of the law rather than the letter of it.

There was an instance that happened a couple of years ago when a cashier at a near by gas station called the police because a citizen was walking around with a gun strapped to his side (open carry with permit.) Even though I personally do not open carry for practical and sensible reasons, the armed citizen was well within his legal right to do so. The officer who arrived on the scene gave the guy the 3rd degree. It was apparent that the officer thought that open carry was illegal within the state of Tennessee. I had to set him strait on that and told him to call to check up on it. It never got out of hand because there was no power struggle. It was all professional and respectful. BUT,....I could tell that the officer was a little humiliated due to his own ignorance of the law. Citizens as well law enforcement need to be fully aware of their God given rights as well as the specifics on the laws which with the knowledge of could one day be beneficial.

[DaveTN]

There was an instance that happened a couple of years ago when a cashier at a near by gas station called the police because a citizen was walking around with a gun strapped to his side (open carry with permit.) Even though I personally do not open carry for practical and sensible reasons, the armed citizen was well within his legal right to do so. The officer who arrived on the scene gave the guy the 3rd degree. It was apparent that the officer thought that open carry was illegal within the state of Tennessee. I had to set him strait on that and told him to call to check up on it. It never got out of hand because there was no power struggle. It was all professional and respectful. BUT,....I could tell that the officer was a little humiliated due to his own ignorance of the law. Citizens as well law enforcement need to be fully aware of their God given rights as well as the specifics on the laws which with the knowledge of could one day be beneficial.
Don’t blame the cops blame your legislators. It took a written opinion (No. 05-154) from the Tennessee Attorney general on 10-11-2005 to clarify the open carry issue.

[SMSTRICK]

Don’t blame the cops blame your legislators. It took a written opinion (No. 05-154) from the Tennessee Attorney general on 10-11-2005 to clarify the open carry issue.Yes, I agree that legislatures are largely to blame for vague wording and broad interpretations. ........On the other hand, I thought that the open carry issue was clear prior to 2005 when the TFA pushed for open carry so as to prevent a law abiding citizen from losing a permit for their weapon being accidentally exposed (for example: Walking across a parking lot and the wind blows your jacket open to expose your weapon.) I have always been under the impression that due to this fact, open carry is allowed and is there primarily as a safe guard for law abiding citizens.
Do not get me wrong,....I place no BLAME on officers, but I do think that they are obligated to at least know the basics of the law which they are sworn to enforce. If a officer of the law cannot answer whether or not open carry is legal or not, something is wrong somewhere.......I support education and practical inservice training as a sollution .

[DaveTN]

Yes, I agree that legislatures are largely to blame for vague wording and broad interpretations. ........On the other hand, I thought that the open carry issue was clear prior to 2005 when the TFA pushed for open carry so as to prevent a law abiding citizen from losing a permit for their weapon being accidentally exposed (for example: Walking across a parking lot and the wind blows your jacket open to expose your weapon.) I have always been under the impression that due to this fact, open carry is allowed and is there primarily as a safe guard for law abiding citizens.

Not only Police Officers are required to know the law, if you are a carry permit holder you should not “be under the impression”; you should know... correct?


Do not get me wrong,....I place no BLAME on officers, but I do think that they are obligated to at least know the basics of the law which they are sworn to enforce. If a officer of the law cannot answer whether or not open carry is legal or not, something is wrong somewhere.......I support education and practical inservice training as a sollution .

I have not been able to pose these questions to Police Officers to see if they know the answers or not. But I have ask many carry permit holders and some “firearm instructors” the responses have been pretty comical.

1. Is a Tennessee carry permit holder allowed to carry his weapon in the open?

2. Is a carry permit holder required to inform a Police Officer on a vehicle traffic stop if he is armed?

3. Does a carry permit holder have a right to refuse to surrender his weapon when ordered to do so by a Police Officer?

4. Does a business owner have the right to post his property as a gun free zone?

5. Is a carry permit holder required to comply with that posting?

6. Does the state of Tennessee recognize the 2nd amendment to the United States Constitution as an individual right?

I’m not interested in what a tax or divorce attorney thinks the law is; I’m looking for clear answers. These should be very simple questions to answer.
(Well, okay maybe I just threw that last one in there for fun but the rest should be easy.) http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y111/TourGlide/Web%20Stuff/biggrin.gif

[saintsfanbrian]

Well a quick answer to number 4 and 5.

Yes, a business owner is well within his rights to post his store as off limits to gun holders whether permitted or not. Remember, a businessman reserves the rights to refuse service to anyone as long as the refusal is not based on gender, race, sexual orientation or anything else that could bring about an EEOC lawsuit (I realize he isn't an employer of his customers, but those are good guidelines for how you can and cannot refuse service to someone.)

Is a permit holder required to comply with the posting? As long as the posting is in the format found in the regulations. Will you go to jail if you don't? Probably not on the first offense, but if you persist, they will probably ding you with trespassing.


Tennessee does not make a distinction between open and concealed carry. My permit (as do all permits in this state) reads Handgun Carry Permit, not Concealed Weapons Permit. This was actually written this way to allow people to carry openly and in the event that their clothing concealed part of the firearm they could not be charged with carrying a concealed weapon. I may be off on that one, but I am 99.8% sure open carry (with a carry permit) is legal. I have done it on a number of occassions near police officers and have not had any problems.

39-17-1351The permittee shall have the permit in the holder's immediate possession at all times when carrying a handgun and shall display the permit on demand of a law enforcement officer. This means if the officer asks for it, you better hand it over. You don't have to offer it, but if he asks, give it to him.I hope that clears up a few things for you.

Most of this was taken from Packing.org

[Phantom6]

Saintsfanbrian answered the rest but

DaveTN wrote:
2. Is a carry permit holder required to inform a Police Officer on a vehicle traffic stop if he is armed?
6. Does the state of Tennessee recognize the 2nd amendment to the United States Constitution as an individual right?


2. No but it's a good way to get a pistol screwed in your ear. I wouldn't bring it up unless the officer asks you to do something that will either expose your pistol or cause you to move your hands near your pistol. In that case I would submit that while keeping both hands in plain view, you would inform the officer that you had a carry permit and you are armed and ask him how he wishes you to proceed.

6. Good question. I'll have to do some research on that. I believe that I will find that the answer is yes but with certain restrictions allowed under the laws of the state and the United States as interpreted by the courts.

[SMSTRICK]

Not only Police Officers are required to know the law, if you are a carry permit holder you should not “be under the impression”; you should know... correct?



I have not been able to pose these questions to Police Officers to see if they know the answers or not. But I have ask many carry permit holders and some “firearm instructors” the responses have been pretty comical.

1. Is a Tennessee carry permit holder allowed to carry his weapon in the open?

2. Is a carry permit holder required to inform a Police Officer on a vehicle traffic stop if he is armed?

3. Does a carry permit holder have a right to refuse to surrender his weapon when ordered to do so by a Police Officer?

4. Does a business owner have the right to post his property as a gun free zone?

5. Is a carry permit holder required to comply with that posting?

6. Does the state of Tennessee recognize the 2nd amendment to the United States Constitution as an individual right?

I’m not interested in what a tax or divorce attorney thinks the law is; I’m looking for clear answers. These should be very simple questions to answer.
(Well, okay maybe I just threw that last one in there for fun but the rest should be easy.) http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y111/TourGlide/Web%20Stuff/biggrin.gif


I agree 100% on that. :up: They need to be clear and specific . You could even ask these same questions to the very people who voted on this within our state government and you will still probably different answers.

[molonlabetn]

There are TN AG opinions on most, if not all of these questions... if you care to look.

You might be surprised.