ORSA Toys for Tots Match - 7 November

Mark you calendars. ORSA's third annual Toys for Tots match will be held 7 November (the first Saturday of the Month). For the very small fee of $30 and a new toy that will be collected by the Marines, you get to shoot a great match with 7 fun stages and a trip to the prize table. Last year we gave out 3 guns based on the Lewis system, so everybody has a chance to get a very nice prize. More info will be up on the orsaidpa.com or orsaap.com in the very near future.

I will be in Memphis.. shooting the Mid Range state championships..

1. Get rid of the prize table.
2. Take the hats and shirts from the table and give them out in a shooters gift bag.
3. If guns are on the table, random drawing.
4. Do away with the lunches. Use that money for cash payback.
5. And finally, use IPSC Rules with HiCap mags!!! and IDPA targets and scoring
DaG

I plan to be there. Don't always score well, but always have a great time at IDPA.

I'll be there as well. Look forward to it, has been great in the past.

Get rid of the prize table? That's pretty silly. There is an element of randomness anyway with the Lewis scoring system.

I can't see a collection of lunch money being worth the time and effort for a cash payback either.

IPSC rules....you need to make it to the Ohio match this Sunday.

Originally Posted by rabidrhino

I'll be there as well. Look forward to it, has been great in the past.

Get rid of the prize table? That's pretty silly. There is an element of randomness anyway with the Lewis scoring system.

I can't see a collection of lunch money being worth the time and effort for a cash payback either.

IPSC rules....you need to make it to the Ohio match this Sunday.

Last years table was 90% hats and shirts with a few trinkets thrown in. We don't have the industry connections at our club to come up with the real good tables like you see at SC or TN State or other T4T matches. If you put guns on the table in the Lewis system, I guarantee that 1 of 4 people will walk away with the one of them. And those same people win year after year. So, to make it interesting, random drawing. Those 4 will raise hell because they are not guaranteed a gun but it does give everyone else a chance to win. As for lunch, maybe, maybe not. But I am not crazy about cold sandwiches in November. If you shot it last year, you know it was not the warmest day to begin with. I would rather entice shooters to show up in hopes of winning cash back in their division. As for IPSC rules, if you were an IDPA shooter and had a Glock or Sig or XD or Beretta or any other Hicap gun wouldn't you like to shoot a match where you could load your mags to capacity and not have to worry about if you were gonna have enough mags to make it through a stage? Most of the regular once a month IDPA guys only have 3 mags so it would be perfect for them. And yes, I would love to go to Ohio. IPSC Production, what a rush. BTW, is your name Ryan L. ??
DaG

Yeah Darren G, it’s Ryan, I guess we just have to differ on the way things work with the prize table. While I could see the guns being random, I do prefer a competitive aspect to the prize distribution. Personally, I hate how IDPA will not award prizes in a competitive manner, especially with the price tag the same as most USPSA matches.

One of the best shooters would win one gun, though that doesn’t bother me especially in light of the shooters that attended the ORSA 250. Eight shooters attended that were classified as master/grand master and it was definitely good competition. Sure one of these individuals could win a gun, and deservedly so, though I find it less problematic with the 1/3 and 2/3 placed individuals also winning firearms. Maybe if there is only one gun, do a random drawing, but if more than just the absolute best could have a chance at winning, that would be copacetic for me.

While I think cash payback matches are good in theory, I don't see one working as well for a smaller event. My opinion is that they don't draw shooters. One was done at the Alabama State Match, where the winner of each class with X many people got their entry fee back (I'm not sure if the overall winner of a division got another money prize or not). With a somewhere around a $100 entry fee, I can see how that might be enticing, though with how much this sport costs, I just can't see a cash payback drawing people to a competition. Rather, I believe it is the inverse where the amount of the entry fee would likely dissuade potential newbies that feel that they have no chance of winning. As you know, thirty dollars is about the cheapest you will find for a match of this quality.

Also, I think the problems of case payback matches are exacerbated when a relatively small amount of cash is available, i.e. for a match with a lower entry fee and less attendance than a state match. Admittedly, I do not know the workings of how much the club keeps, but I can't believe there would be sum significant to draw people if we are considering paying all divisions GM, M, A, B, C, D, and U. Additionally, as it may be an oddity just associated with ORSA, the number of USPSA shooters pale in comparison to the potential number of shooters that shoot IDPA. In my opinion, I think the Lewis system for awarding prizes works better in this situation where the match does not officially use one system or the other. While I know there is the argument that the Lewis system could be used for a cash payout, I would rather see the individuals have their pick at the best prizes, being guns, gift certificates, shirts, and whatever. This is despite my best interest as a class system/cash payout would work more favorably for me.

Regarding IPSC vs. USPSA, I think what you really mean is just the inclusion of hi-cap magazines and not the other IPSC rules such as a mandatory 5 lb trigger pull weight for the first shot, exclusion of Glock 34/35s as well as painted guns from production. Quite frankly it is ice in the winter to me. I’ll shoot my Glock 22 in limited if I have such a hankering. Admittedly though, if it was to happen at a match, this is one of the few where it could. I can’t remember, did people run single-stacks at this match? If so, I could see that being one reason for the 10-round limit so as to make the competition more level for them. BTW, I wish I could have made it to Ohio too, would have been a fun double-header.

Originally Posted by rabidrhino

Yeah Darren G, it’s Ryan, I guess we just have to differ on the way things work with the prize table. While I could see the guns being random, I do prefer a competitive aspect to the prize distribution. Personally, I hate how IDPA will not award prizes in a competitive manner, especially with the price tag the same as most USPSA matches.

One of the best shooters would win one gun, though that doesn’t bother me especially in light of the shooters that attended the ORSA 250. Eight shooters attended that were classified as master/grand master and it was definitely good competition. Sure one of these individuals could win a gun, and deservedly so, though I find it less problematic with the 1/3 and 2/3 placed individuals also winning firearms. Maybe if there is only one gun, do a random drawing, but if more than just the absolute best could have a chance at winning, that would be copacetic for me.

While I think cash payback matches are good in theory, I don't see one working as well for a smaller event. My opinion is that they don't draw shooters. One was done at the Alabama State Match, where the winner of each class with X many people got their entry fee back (I'm not sure if the overall winner of a division got another money prize or not). With a somewhere around a $100 entry fee, I can see how that might be enticing, though with how much this sport costs, I just can't see a cash payback drawing people to a competition. Rather, I believe it is the inverse where the amount of the entry fee would likely dissuade potential newbies that feel that they have no chance of winning. As you know, thirty dollars is about the cheapest you will find for a match of this quality.

Also, I think the problems of case payback matches are exacerbated when a relatively small amount of cash is available, i.e. for a match with a lower entry fee and less attendance than a state match. Admittedly, I do not know the workings of how much the club keeps, but I can't believe there would be sum significant to draw people if we are considering paying all divisions GM, M, A, B, C, D, and U. Additionally, as it may be an oddity just associated with ORSA, the number of USPSA shooters pale in comparison to the potential number of shooters that shoot IDPA. In my opinion, I think the Lewis system for awarding prizes works better in this situation where the match does not officially use one system or the other. While I know there is the argument that the Lewis system could be used for a cash payout, I would rather see the individuals have their pick at the best prizes, being guns, gift certificates, shirts, and whatever. This is despite my best interest as a class system/cash payout would work more favorably for me.

Regarding IPSC vs. USPSA, I think what you really mean is just the inclusion of hi-cap magazines and not the other IPSC rules such as a mandatory 5 lb trigger pull weight for the first shot, exclusion of Glock 34/35s as well as painted guns from production. Quite frankly it is ice in the winter to me. I’ll shoot my Glock 22 in limited if I have such a hankering. Admittedly though, if it was to happen at a match, this is one of the few where it could. I can’t remember, did people run single-stacks at this match? If so, I could see that being one reason for the 10-round limit so as to make the competition more level for them. BTW, I wish I could have made it to Ohio too, would have been a fun double-header.

+ 1000 to what he said.

Now - back to the reason for this thread - entice people to come and shoot a fun match for a great cause.

Reasons:
1. A chance to shoot fun stages
2. A chance to support a great cause
3. A chance to go to a prize table that will have firearms
4. Free lunch included in the relatively low-priced entry fee

There are more reasons, such as harassing your friends, avoiding watching your favorite football team lose, avoiding putting up Thanksgiving decorations, etc. The BOTTOM LINE, COME OUT AND SHOOT.

DaG, Mike Madden could sure use your help in setting up and running the match. You sound like you have tons of knowledgable about running matches. I know Mike puts in a lot of hours planning the stages and getting them setup on match day, then getting them taken down and stored. He would enjoy all your help and could sure use your hands on help.

[QUOTE=2Alpha;372759]+ 1000 to what he said.

Now - back to the reason for this thread - entice people to come and shoot a fun match for a great cause.

Reasons:
1. A chance to shoot fun stages
2. A chance to support a great cause
3. A chance to go to a prize table that will have firearms
4. Free lunch included in the relatively low-priced entry fee

There are more reasons, such as harassing your friends, avoiding watching your favorite football team lose, avoiding putting up Thanksgiving decorations, etc. The BOTTOM LINE, COME OUT AND SHOOT.[/QUOTE

I agree 100%. Prizes are nice, but that should not be the main reason to have an opportunity to use your freedom to own and shoot guns in this country. God bless America.