LAPD.. Dropping S&W M&P 9mm

[FroggyOne2]

SMITH&WESSON M&P PISTOLS NO LONGER AUTHORIZED FOR LASD USE - PoliceLink

according to Member 18DAI over on the Smith forums.. he said the following.

There have been significant problems with the M&P regarding failures to extract. In addition, one was recieved with an improperly machined barrel that would not eject spent casings.

The memo was issued after a M&P barrel broke into two pieces, just ahead of the firing chamber, a few weeks ago, IIRC. That barrel had less than 10,000 rounds. In the interest of full disclosure, I am not a fan of the M&P, having been in on a T&E at my former agency. They chose another plastic gun, and were wise to do so IMHO.

M&P users in that agency are being issued Beretta 92's as replacements.

The 3rd generation pistols are much more reliable, accurate, and a better value, to me. Hope this helps. Regards 18DAI.

[Todd@CIS]

Slight correction...LASD, not LAPD.

Hate to say it, because I really want to like the M&P, but I don't think it's quite "there" yet.
It just seems that too many bugs and issues continue to plague this pistol.
S&W has great customer service, but it seems that way too many people have to use it to get their M&Ps right.

[et45]

I have a friend who works for the Chattanooga PD.Currently they use a varient of the 4506 and a couple years back tested the M&P.He said they were not impressed enough to switch.

[70below]

Well, in retrospect, I'm glad I got my G17 instead of the M&P. I'd still like an M&P someday, hopefully they'll have it ironed out by then.

[mousegunner]

Go GLOCK!

Mousegunner's GLOCK Pistol Page

[VolMickey]

Got the M&P 9mil earlier this year. Love it. I'm not using it as a service weapon, however, just personal fun and protection. Never had a problem and shot probably 500 hundreds of rounds through it so far.

[CK1]

i really liked my m&p, and it shot and handled very well, but it failed 2 or 3 times in around 1500rds or so. that's 2 or 3 more times than my other striker/polymer guns, so i got rid of it.
when i would take it down fully it would make me a little weary, the striker assembly is a little weird, and having to take off the rear sight sucks, just seemed over complicated internally... and compared to my steyr or glock, the build quality just wasn't there... my steyr after near 10,000rds still looks new inside and out, the m&p was looking worn inside approaching only 2000...
i don't know, good guns, and it's good they have great customer service, but you do hear all too often of guys having to use it which is a little strange.
imho, i think they just need to "beef up" their construction a bit, and un-complicate the the internals some, than they'd be "there".

[TGO David]

Bah. Detroit Metro just dropped Glock in favor of S&W. Here are some replies from folks smarter than me over on M4Carbine about this issue. Keep in mind that a lot of these guys have been down this road before with other firearms so it's not exactly earth shattering to them.

A handful* of M&P 9's having issues does not lead me to think that there is any problem with the design or with S&W. When that number starts becoming much higher percentage wise, and more widespread, then it may be something to be concerned about. To me, a report like this means that I carry on as usual, and just be observant for those issues to come up with mine and/or to grow in number general.


* Handful meaning this report is a very small, near insignificant, number when compared to the overall number of M&P 9's produced and in use.

Gents,


I posted the info above for nothing more than a FYI. It is not intended to be a slam on Smith & Wesson or the M&P pistol.

Those of us in law enforcement get these kind of email on a semi-regular basis, and they cover problems with firearms, ammo, protective gear, accessories for police vehilces, etc.

Something I have noticed over the years is that one agency may have nothing but problems with a pistol, and another agency (close to the same size) tells you that they are extreemly pleased with the performance and reliablity of the same pistol.

I don't know what causes this....ammo....production runs.....differing quality control at different times......etc.

I have seen several recruits in recent classes using M&P 9mm and .40 hand guns and haven't witnessed any problems. I have seen several 9mm, .40, and .45 M&P pistol in training classes. I only witness one that had a problem....it was a 9mm and there was something wrong with the trigger.

If I were considering a M&P, would the information above influence my decision to buy a M&P 9mm? Probably not.

If I owned a M&P 9mm, would I sell it because of the information above? No. Would I inspect the areas of the pistol that were problematic for LASD? Yes.

Every company has it's good days and it's bad days. No company is perfect and no product is perfect.

Use the platform that works best for you, and don't have a "knee jerk" reaction to the information posted above. If the gun doesn't run or the platform doesn't work for you, move on to something that is reliable and works for you.

Semper Fi,
Jeff

Exactly. Last weekend I decided that a M&P fullsize 9mm will be my next handgun, and this doesn't change that one iota.

How many guns does the LASD consider a "significant amount?" It seems that most everyone is capable of producing the occasional tight chamber, though the breaking in two account is a new one for me. With the exception of that snapped barrel failure, it seems like any problem being discussed would immediately show itself.

NYPD had some very disturbing problems with the almighty Glock 19, it doesn't change the fact that tons(most?) of informed professionals consider it a go to gun if not their favorite.

As I said earlier, this to me is like everyone freaking out because a handful of people have some pig cough...I seriously doubt that it's anything warranting widespread concern. Though it brings home the fact that nothing is perfect and we should all put a minimum of several hundred rounds through a gun before staking our lives on it.

Until there is reason to believe that there is a design flaw or an ongoing manufacturing problem, we all need to calm down and look at the full record of the M&Ps which has been excellent, especially for a new gun.

OMG I AM SELLING ALL MY M&Ps!

Not.

Seriously, this community never ceases to amaze me. Out of the hundreds and hundreds of departments that are issuing a particular gun, one puts out a short "Officer Safety" memo that is incredibly short on detail and suddenly the sky is falling? Please, to everyone who said this will affect their next gun purchase, please post what car you drive. I'd like to find some examples of people having problems with that make/model just to see how long you last before stroking out.

First, I have zero contact with LASD so I cannot possibly begin to explain what is going on in this specific instance. Please don't read anything in my post to be an indictment of them.

Second, I've been the victim of these LE broadcasts many times before when at Beretta or SIG. As USMC03 said, they go across the wire fairly frequently. For a large agency with frequent industry contact, such things rarely happen in a vacuum. Either a rep isn't responding to complaints from the department, the factory isn't solving problems the department is reporting, or someone in the department has a personal motivation to give the manufacturer a black eye.

These sorts of reports usually come out of smaller departments where the FI staff doesn't really have any industry contact. They simply don't understand the concept of "bad batch" and immediately see a problem in their little bubble as earth shattering.

I know from personal experience that LASD has reached out to a gun company when problems occurred in the past. So there has to be something more going on here. There's a human politics element at play.

--ToddG

Of the 49 guns...
1 had an improperly machined barrel
1 had a barrely break in two
And then a "significant" number had some FTEs. (could have been something wrong with the ammo, maybe??)

I wouldnt panic just yet.

I see that reason is beginning to take hold, but I'll add to the chorus anyway:

One memo like this does not a crisis make. Every handgun manufacturer on this planet has put out weapons that break in odd ways or that have some issues. I've personally seen it from Sig, H&K, Beretta, Glock (a BUNCH from Glock), Ruger, etc.

I've seen a picture floating around on TOS of an M&P with a broken barrel just like the article describes, but it was presented with zero context or explanation from the person who posted it. My guess is that now we have the back-story on that photo.

If there were a systemic problem with barrels snapping in two on the M&P platform, we'd have heard about it by now. There are a number of agencies issuing the weapons with satisfactory results so far.

Reports like this have to be weighed along with all the working guns in aggregate to get the big picture. The M&P's design was not birthed from the Blessed Virgin's womb. It is not manufactured by angels. As such, individual units can have issues just like any mass produced firearm.

More to come...

[TGO David]

Quote love continues...

For those of you with better memories, did the early Glock 17 have issues?

You mean other than going off when impacting a hard object or being struck by a hard object, which led to the well-publicized non-recall recall?

Or changes to the finish of various internal parts?

Or numerous mag design changes?

Or slide stop levers wearing out slide cuts?

Or firing pin blocks chipping and causing high incidence of misfires?

Add in the G19, and you've got the NYPD's "Phase III Malfunction" saga.

Add in the G22, and you've got functionality issues to this day being reported all over the place.

Add in the G23, and you've got all sorts of issues among agencies which later decided that a full size G22 was a better choice for plainclothes folks because of G23 reliability problems.

And don't even get me started on the whole kB! thing, which so many people are quick to blame on bad ammo regardless of how many times someone blows one up with factory ammo.

Does that make the Glock a POS? Absolutely not. Again, hundreds of agencies, countless thousands of people, use Glocks successfully. But if you mistakenly believe Glock (or any other manufacturer) rests on a pedestal above all the rest, immune from the vagaries of human failure, you're mistaken.

Not to be unfair, let's not focus on just the Glock's early teething problems. The M&P had a major striker design change and still doesn't handle large volume dry fire without a snap cap. There was the mag drop problem. External finish issues. Poorly refinished chambers. Slide rail geometry had to be changed due to cracking on certain guns. And of course there is still the slide release lever issue mentioned above.

SIG? Holy cow. Broken frame rails were a huge problem for many years. Magazines unzipping. Fragile trigger bar springs. Safety levers breaking. More modern problems have included the P220 extractor fiasco, improperly manufactured takedown levers, out of spec trigger bars, the huge P229 40/357 recoil spring drama ...

Beretta? Can you say "locking block?" Trigger springs breaking. The 96-series guns were never as durable or reliable as their 9mm cousins and Beretta admitted it. All sorts of problems with the Cougars. The 9000S which got discontinued almost as quickly as the Colt All-American.

HK has had firing pin and trigger bar problems as well as some finish issues.

No one is immune. And before someone says "that's why I wait 3 (or 5 or 10 or 50) years before buying a new model," you're kidding yourself. For every teething problem a company has, it probably has two or three down the road once you'd think manufacturing was finalized. Change in parts vendors, change in materiel supplies, change in QC procedures, hell even change in packaging can have an effect.

And that's why you can't just look at one gun or one instance and jump to conclusions. A "proven" design is certainly better than an unproven one, but "proven" just increases your odds ... it's no guarantee. Test your gun and carry a backup.

In addition to Todd's list, don't forget the whole rail breaking episode earlier in this decade, '04 or so, across the whole line. After Glock had been in business for what, two decades? Another non-recall recall by Glock.

I sent my first Glock 17 in for the non-recall recall in the early 90s, got it back with shiny nickeled internal parts.

But that doesn't stop me from owning a G17 (happens to be a different one) and G19 right now as my primary defense weapons. I have shot a couple of thousand rounds through the 17 and six thousand through the G19 and they work fine.

Just read this on SigForum:

Randy Lee
Member

Posted April 30, 2009 11:31 PM Hide Post
Hi guys,

There is a LOT more to this story than what is being released. I have been speaking with a very credible source who has been involved in the T&E process and there is a lot of frustration within the ranks regarding the decision to de-authorize this pistol.

As far as the recruits experiencing all the malfunctions, the practice ammo is HIGHLY suspect.

In the situation of the barrel breakage, once Smith receives the failed barrel, I hope they will check for unauthorized "gunsmithing" that would have voided the manufacturer's warranty.

Apparently the pics of the broken barrel have already been leaked out onto the internet. I don't know if the failure analysis results will be released from Smith, but I hope they will be...

I can not comment on the issues the LASO's having with their M&P 9mm's. I don't work for them.

I do work for a Department in SW Ohio. We are on the start of our 4th year of issuing M&P 9mm's. Approximately 1,200 guns in the field. So far, so good.

Our Firearms Training Unit received the first 3 T&E 9mm's to ever leave the factory. The T&E process was interesting. The engineers assigned to the M&P project stayed in contact with our range staff. I can say I personally spent an 8 hour shift putting over 2k through one gun. After about 20 K per gun, the guys were running out if ideas as to how to test and torture them.

Our guns were the first batch of 9mm's produced. They shipped them out to our department in batches, as we were transitioning as the guns were being produced. This was done due to time restraints in the training schedule for yearly qualifications. To their credit, S&W managed to stay ahead of our needs, as far as delivery time goes.

After the T&E process was over, one of our range staff purchased two of the T&E guns to be used in the CCW classes he teaches to civilians on the side. These guns have well over 50K each.

My personally issued M&P full size has around 9K through it. As a whole, there has been no trend as far as issues with the design, for our Department.

Could S&W had a bad batch of barrels, or some other minor part that went to the LASO? Of course they could have. I challenge anyone in internet land to name a design that hasn't had issues at one time or another, to include Glock's (remember the recall on frames beginning with "F"?).

I would however be shocked to hear that S&W didn't address the issue with the LASO. Their customer service of late is one of the best in the industry. Add to that, S&W is got alot riding on the M&P series of pistols.

I am a huge fan of the Glock 9mm's, especially the Glock 19. I have no intention on sell off my 9mm Glocks.

But the more time I spend with the M&P, the more I like it.

I have since purchased a M&P9c, A M&P9L (had a friend do a trigger job) and purchased two M&P 9mm full size guns (back when the rebate included $50, plus 2 mags- at the LEO price for the gun plus 3 mags, couldn't pass it up). These two are set aside for my kids, for when they get older.

There are many out there who are waiting for an excuse to talk down the M&P. It's a new product, and a threat to their beloved favorite gun, be it Glock, Sig, ect. Many of these individuals might do well to post less and shoot more.

Are the issues the LASO are experiencing of concern? Of course. But it sounds as if the LASO is addressing these issues, with the safety of their officers taking priority.
This is as it should be.

I for one have no intention on dumping the M&P's I purchased for my own use. I have enough time shooting and training with my issued M&P that I trust it. Period.

If your gun has issues, call S&W. They will take care of you. If you chose to panic and dump your M&P, well in today's market, you will have no trouble selling it. Actually, if the price is right, give me a call...

[TGO David]

Cliffs notes for those who don't have the patience to read through the replies above:

* Small number of pistols tested, even smaller number exhibited issues.
* LASD might have an agenda here
* LASD's practice ammo may have been at fault
* LASD might not have contacted S&W before issuing said release, giving them time to address the issue
* Countless other agencies and civilians have not had similar problems
* Statistics can be skewed to support whatever position you have decided to take




I personally have had only minor issues with my M&Ps over the years. The most significant problems were the slide locking back prematurely and the magazine dropping on it's own; both on a 9mm Compact model. I bought this gun in 2005 when the models had just come out and S&W fixed it both times with revised parts that eliminated the problem. Clearly a first-run, freshman year problem.

Were they problems that could have fisted your OODA loop in a fight? You betcha! But they both occurred within the first 500 rounds fired at an indoor range. That's why I intentionally take any firearm I may carry and subject it to some abuse at the range FIRST. This is the recommended course of action for anyone who buys a new defensive handgun. Wring it out before you trust it.

Less critical but annoying none the less is the horrible lack of tactile trigger reset on my M&P 9mm. It DOES reset, you just don't feel a nice snap in the trigger when it does like you do on a Glock or an XD.

My M&P 40 has a pretty good reset. Not great, but good. All of my previous M&Ps have had good reset. So the issue seems to be hit or miss, luck of the draw. I am sending my M&P 9mm back to have the trigger re-worked and a Performance Center sear installed anyway, so I'm not really concerned. Plus it's something you could train around if you wanted to carry it. I just prefer not to work around it because I'm a lazy creature of habit.