a Tennessee perspective

Originally Posted by I_Like_Pie

You have a legal right to forcefully remove someone from your property. If you try and they elevate the situation you can proceed with said beatdown.

Most people/police agree that the middle step is somewhat optional. The problem still lies that if you tear the guys ears off that he may seek civil damages...so it puts you as a homeowner in somewhat of an "all or nothing" situation.

This very thing happened to my best friend not long ago. He tackled the door of his Durango with the person's leg hanging out of it. 10 or so MPH with 200# of mass I suppose left quite an ouch-ie on the BG...which ran off and was never seen again.

So my 280 lbs would be even better!

Originally Posted by PackinMama

Good Steward, That is pretty cool about "Lucky." I seriously would never have imagined an attack trained boxer. That would actually give you, or your wife and kids a major advantage if he had to go on attack.....no BG would ever expect it!

Actually, Boxers are one of the original Shutzhund dogs, along with Rottweillers, Dobermans, German Shepherds, Bouviers, and Giant Schnauzers.

Originally Posted by Cruel Hand Luke

Wow...........I suggest people actually take a second and THINK before they rush into laying hands on someone of unknown ability and you call me a "condescending expert"?

Well.....O.K. then...........

I never suggested any course of action because as I stated in the post there are too many variables unmentioned in the original premise. Oh and we also are JUST ASSUMING that he is alone......

I merely suggested that there are seriously bad dudes out there. And that MOST poeple reading this forum honestly would not fit into that category. And that if your gun does not frighten someone then that might be a clue that this guy is not just a 16 year old punk.

I also CLEARLY STATED that if you are physically skilled to the point that you are confident about going hands on with someone of unknown ability that my suggestion to THINK FIRST before rushing in to deliver a beat down does not apply to you.

So, the task of this exercise (per the OP) was to:

I wanted to post this here to keep this in a Tennessee perspective and wanted to see what you guys would do.

I think that playing the "there are too many unknowns" is weak and you should either use the limited info given in this scenario to give everyone an idea of what YOU would do, or dont bother posting in the thread.

Are there many unknowns? Yep. Such as life.

There isnt a right or wrong answer here guys.
You dont get extra credit for sandbagging your answer.

If you think you should come out of your house guns blazing, tell us and explain why.
If you think that kicking the guy in the jewels is the way to go, explain why.
Again, there is no right or wrong here. Explain your tactics and why they work for you.

This allows us to view the situation from another persons perspective, and perhaps learn or apply some of their suggestions to your mental kit.

I think think Packinmama made a great case here.
She said:

I'd use my gun. Of course, being a woman, we can "be in reasonable fear of our lives" a lot easier than a man can be. A man's bare hands can be a "lethal weapon" against a woman. So even though we are at a physical disadvantage against an attacker, we have certain other advantages that can work for us if we have to use lethal force.

That makes sense to me!

I dont share her tactics and elevation of force because im different from her, have different training and physical abilities.

I think it would be easy to defend herself in court over her use of force, where someone like myself my find it harder to convince a judge or jury that lethal force was my only option.

So, we can hide behind instructor-speak, or we can just participate in the discussion, present your case and explain why it would work in your particular situation.

Joe, I can see both sides. Honestly, I have other means aside from my firearm to defend myself and family. In this situation, I would not hesitate to be in a physical confrontation with this person, because I do not believe it merits use of deadly force. If the situation is escalated by the BG by, let's say pulling a knife, then I would not hesitate to kill him for the sake of my safety. So yeah, there are a lot of unknown circumstances. Such is life.

Originally Posted by Good_Steward

Joe, I can see both sides. Honestly, I have other means aside from my firearm to defend myself and family. In this situation, I would not hesitate to be in a physical confrontation with this person, because I do not believe it merits use of deadly force. If the situation is escalated by the BG by, let's say pulling a knife, then I would not hesitate to kill him for the sake of my safety.

Good point.

The info presented was the guy was in the car, it seems the stereo is either being stolen, or you had just won a free surprise install of a premium system from Crutchfield.com.

At this point, you want the guy out of your car, but is he really a lethal threat to you?

Is the next step beyond yelling at him and calling the cops to clear leather?

The reason I am really stressing that people think about this is I have a good friend who was in a similar situation (actually it was 3 on 1) and that person cleared leather.
Guess what guys? The LE, DA, and Court system is pretty unpredictable!
One would assume that 3 on 1 is a no-brainer for pulling your gun, right?
Wrong.
That person was not only charged, but ended up with a guilty conviction!

So, my point is; better be 105% sure that you were 2 seconds away from bodily injury or death, because you may find your ass sitting in jail for defending your 8 track!

I'm stil ltrying to figure out why the guy isn't screaming in pain after having his leg slammed in the door 4 or 5 times.
I was on my phone and didn't know he was there, couldn't figure out why the door wouldn't shut so I slammed it with my foot a few times.

Quick Draw McGraw would KaBong him with his KaBonger !!!
I would KaBong him wif my oxygen tank!! lol

OK with the LIMITED amount of info we have......

1. No description of lighting conditions. What time is it?
2. No description of whether there are other vehicles (mine) parked in the driveway.
3. NO DESCRIPTION of the robber. Is he 5'6 110lbs or he 6'6 300lbs? Is he heavily muscled or is he just heavy?
4. Is he wearing his "gang uniform"?
5. Is he visibly armed? ie bulging gun shaped "lump" under his shirt ?
6. What ethnicity is he?
7.What is the prevailing legal climate regarding self defense in my part of the state? That makes a BIG difference.
8. Are there any neighbors outside?

These are 8 things that I came up with off the top of my head that all were NOT listed in the OP but will have some effect on things. And those 8 things will change to one degree or another the way I would react to the situation.

So lets fill in some blanks......
If it is dark I would have flashlight out palmed and light up the car ordering him out.FIRST I would make sure that there were no accomplices hiding behind the other cars (if any) or by the house BEFORE I approach him. It is all fun and games until you get jumped from behind....

Assuming I am positive he is alone, and darkness, I would light up the car with the light and VERY LOUDLY, so that the neighbors are alerted, order him out of the car and off my property while I stand at the edge of cover ...remember he MAY have a gun. They tend to NOT like to be spot lighted and have attention drawn to them. So I would use the light to illuminate what he is doing. I would NOT draw my gun yet though.

IF he complies fine, let him go. Give a description to the cops when they get here 27 minutes from now and file a report with my insurance.

Now, IF he is NOT obeying then I have a decision to make....do I go pepper spray him or do I go try to physically remove him or do I just do nothing and wait? Here is where the more you know the less likely you are to want to lay hands on him....

Let's say he is secretly armed with a knife like I am right now. In under 2 seconds I can access it from my belt and pop a ballon taped to the neck of a target an arms reach away. If you go to clamp on to him and give him the heave ho and he comes out with the knife and you do not see it you could be done before you even realize that was not just a punch to your jugular but a stab.......so I'm VERY hesitant to go hands on unless I HAVE to. Are you willing to DIE for a radio? I'm not.

Or let us say I did NOT make sure he was alone. I go to grab him and he just wraps me up and his buddy steps in from behind and shanks me with a rusty butcher knife...nice. Hope that ambulance can get here faster than the cops do....

Now let us say he just explodes from the car and tries to tackle me? I sprawl avoiding the low tackle or go to my default cover to counter a high strike to the head(a technique used to cover your head and to keep from getting knocked down or knocked out) then work for better position and do whatever I have to do to effectively stop his agression. Think Knees elbows chinjabs hammerfists and takedowns followed by bouncing his head off the pavement if I have to. But again I have a very narrow window because if he is armed with a knife and gets a chance to access it I will probably get cut or stabbed the longer this goes. And the longer it goes the more likely he is to find my gun and now I'm in a retention situation not just handing out a casual ass beating.....I know how much it sucks to be wrestling over a gun with someone. Not something you want to be real the first time you try it.

Again, I'm not pulling my gun unless I HAVE to.

The OP was kind of ambiguous on that. He made it sound like you DID have it out already. I would not draw it until I could articulate WHY I felt in danger of grave bodily injury or death...

So let us make the BG 6'6 300 lbs and he gets out of the car with a wrench in hand and steps toward me. There is a VERY good chance he is going to get shot. If he is 5'6 and gets out with a knife...same story.

But until he presents a weapon I am not in fear of grave bodily injury or death so NO GUN .....yet.

But NONE of this stuff was in the OP so it was difficult to answer THAT limited question.

The problem is you can LOOK at a situation's backstory (light conditions,proximity of cover,proximity of innocent bystanders,size and assumed ability of the BG etc etc) and make judgement in split SECONDS that would take PAGES to explain on the web....

I assume EVERY potential adversary to be

1. Armed with knife and gun
2. Trained with both
3. MMA trained
4.TMA trained
5. In better shape than I am
6. To not care whether he lives or dies
7. to HAVE AN ACCOMPLICE (or 2)

So I build my responses around these worse case scenarios NOT around the likely 110 pound meth head looking to score $20. And in so doing I have a set of responses that solve COMPLEX problems along with the basic problems.

But maybe I should just rush out and stomp him....

You see the original question was the equivilant of asking "how do I get out of it when dude gets inside my guard and starts working ground and pound?" Simple question? Right?

No.

Tha answer depends on many variables not set forth in the question...am I armed? Is he armed? Do I have friends there? Does HE have friends there? Are THEY armed? Do I know this guy? Why are we fighting? Is this a fight on the parkng lot stemming from a robbery attempt or is this a Thanksgiving misunderstanding between politically opposed family members ?

Any logical person can see how these all would affect how we would react...Context is king.

If you want to rush in an pummel him fine.If you are confident in your ability to the point that you will risk your life to proactively lay hands on an opponent of unknown skill and unknown armament then that may be the right answer FOR YOU. I hope that works for you, but I've seen it not work enough times to be really hesitant to lay hands on people I do not HAVE to. However I fear it would NOT be the right answer for the vast majority of normal folks who read this forum.

That is why I said Packinmama (pepper spray) and Good Steward (Release the hounds!) might have the best answers. I'm not ready to die or put myself in a potentially deadly situation that can go really bad really fast over a car stereo.....But your mileage may vary.....and this stuff is about life and death...cute little bumper sticker answers don't cut it when someone's life might be endangered by the answers you give.....

Excellent, excellent answer and explanation, Randy.

I'd stab the guy in the achille's. see what happens...stab the guy in the arm if he comes at me, or watch him limp away. if he still comes at me, shoot him in the kneecap opposite of the achille's leg. Then kick him to the ground and wait for the cops. that may just be my 21 year old mentality though.