58 replies to this topic

[RobertNashville]

The fact that I don't want to get poked in the eye with a stick doesn't make the stick a good SD weapon.

That doesn't negate my point.

25s and 32s and lowly 22s can kill and any of those are a hell of a lot better than any caliber you aren't carrying.

Edited by RobertNashville, 27 February 2012 - 03:11 PM.

[Jonnin]

The fact that I don't want to get poked in the eye with a stick doesn't make the stick a good SD weapon.

Hah!

[daddyo]

That doesn't negate my point.

25s and 308s and lowly 22s can kill and any of those are a hell of a lot better than any caliber you aren't carrying.

Ah, so that would explain why so many PD's issue those calibers to their officers.

[A10thunderbolt]

Oh, come on its better than nothing. My mom won't carry any thing large because it "Hurts to shoot" I am just glad she will carry.

[daddyo]

Oh, come on its better than nothing.

So is a pointy stick.

[RobertNashville]

Ah, so that would explain why so many PD's issue those calibers to their officers.

So what are you trying to say; are you implying that if you don't carry a large caliber why bother?

My usual carry piece is a G31 (357Sig); and if not that one then it's almost certainly a 45ACP or a 10MM. But, sometimes because of who I'm with/where I am/what I'm wearing I only have a lowly 38 snubby in my pocket...should I just not carry at all because the 38 isn't a powerful caliber???

Your average young (or older or old) woman (or man for that matter isn't a police officer and isn't putting her(his) life into harm's way on purpose as part of her(his) job...police officers do and as such should probably carry the biggest, baddest caliber their agency will allow.

The old adage "any caliber you have with you is better than ANY caliber locked in your safe" is an old adage for a reason - it's because IT'S TRUE.

I also believe it's true that many (perhaps even most) defensive use of a handgun is simply showing that you have a gun, not actually needing to shoot a would-be thug...if so, then what "caliber" a person has on him is FAR less important than the fact that she/he has a firearm with them.

Maybe a man can't turn her (wife/daughter/girlfriend) into a sheep dog but at least she many become an armed sheep that's a hell of a lot better than being a disarmed one.

[daddyo]

So what are you trying to say; are you implying that if you don't carry a large caliber why bother?

My usual carry piece is a G31 (357Sig); and if not that one then it's almost certainly a 45ACP or a 10MM. But, sometimes because of who I'm with/where I am/what I'm wearing I only have a lowly 38 snubby in my pocket...should I just not carry at all because the 38 isn't a powerful caliber???

Your average young (or older or old) woman (or man for that matter isn't a police officer and isn't putting her(his) life into harm's way on purpose as part of her(his) job...police officers do and as such should probably carry the biggest, baddest caliber their agency will allow.

The old adage "any caliber you have with you is better than ANY caliber locked in your safe" is an old adage for a reason - it's because IT'S TRUE.

I also believe it's true that many (perhaps even most) defensive use of a handgun is simply showing that you have a gun, not actually needing to shoot a would-be thug...if so, then what "caliber" a person has on him is FAR less important than the fact that she/he has a firearm with them.

Maybe a man can't turn her (wife/daughter/girlfriend) into a sheep dog but at least she many become an armed sheep that's a hell of a lot better than being a disarmed one.

I have never seen any hard evidence to convince me that mousegun calibers achieve the penetration AND expansion of the service calibers. Until I do, I won't change my mind about it. If you or someone else wants to carry a mousegun, that's your right and your choice. Just don't expect me to pat you on the back for it.

The old adage "any caliber you have with you is better than ANY caliber locked in your safe" is completely ridiculous, because it doesn't have to be one or the other. It just sounds good to most people and provides justification for not carrying a more effective weapon.

And If you're counting on the mere presence of your weapon to scare off an attacker, then you're operating under a false assumption.

[Jonnin]

"mouse" calibers are nasty if you put them into a larger framed gun, yet retain a low recoil factor. A 380 out of a 5 inch barrel will both expand and penetrate well enough. Put it into a 2 inch barrel pocket rocket, and it cannot do so well (use solid points, give up on expansion). A 22 mag is also very good in a 4-5 inch barrel pistol. With 30 rounds of it out of a 4 & change inch barrel, the kel tec pmr 30 is probably the most powerful defensive handgun you can get for someone with weak hands.

[RobertNashville]

I have never seen any hard evidence to convince me that mousegun calibers achieve the penetration AND expansion of the service calibers. Until I do, I won't change my mind about it. If you or someone else wants to carry a mousegun, that's your right and your choice. Just don't expect me to pat you on the back for it.

The old adage "any caliber you have with you is better than ANY caliber locked in your safe" is completely ridiculous, because it doesn't have to be one or the other. It just sounds good to most people and provides justification for not carrying a more effective weapon.

So a "mousegun", as you call it, is inadequate and that, therefore, someone shouldn't bother to carry at all if that's all they are going to carry???

Please tell me the last time you volunteered to be shot with one and if you have never volunteered, why not? I mean...it's only a "mousegun" after all..

And If you're counting on the mere presence of your weapon to scare off an attacker, then you're operating under a false assumption.

Actually, I didn't say it was the "mere presence"; I was assuming a willingness to not just "flash" a weapon but to show the intent and ability to use it. In any case, your opinion seems to be just that, opinion.

I've actually had to pull my weapon twice in my life and both times I've avoided what I believed was going to be a life-threatening situation; I didn't need to discharge my firearm but I was most certianly willing to do so and had the thugs not backed down I am sure I would have been justified in shooting...beyond that, I'd encourage you to do some research on your own.

"Despite this stated willingness of gun owners to shoot under certain circumstances, most defensive uses of guns do not in fact involve shooting anyone (emphasis mine). Data from the National Self-Defense Survey indicate that no more than 8% of the 2.5 million annual defensive gun uses involved a defender who claimed to have shot their adversaries, or about 200,000 total." - Source; Guns and Self-Defenseby Gary Kleck, Ph.D.

Edited by RobertNashville, 27 February 2012 - 06:09 PM.

[Smith]

Ah, so that would explain why so many PD's issue those calibers to their officers.

Not too long ago .380 was the most widely used PD gun caliber in the WORLD. It is still largely issued in Europe and many other places.

[daddyo]

So a "mousegun", as you call it, is inadequate and that, therefore, someone shouldn't bother to carry at all if that's all they are going to carry???

Please tell me the last time you volunteered to be shot with one and if you have never volunteered, why not? I mean...it's only a "mousegun" after all..


Actually, I didn't say it was the "mere presence"; I was assuming a willingness to not just "flash" a weapon but to show the intent and ability to use it. In any case, your opinion seems to be just that, opinion.

I've actually had to pull my weapon twice in my life and both times I've avoided what I believed was going to be a life-threatening situation; I didn't need to discharge my firearm but I was most certianly willing to do so and had the thugs not backed down I am sure I would have been justified in shooting...beyond that, I'd encourage you to do some research on your own.

"Despite this stated willingness of gun owners to shoot under certain circumstances, most defensive uses of guns do not in fact involve shooting anyone (emphasis mine). Data from the National Self-Defense Survey indicate that no more than 8% of the 2.5 million annual defensive gun uses involved a defender who claimed to have shot their adversaries, or about 200,000 total." - Source; Guns and Self-Defenseby Gary Kleck, Ph.D.

Please point everyone to my post where I said if you don't carry a service caliber, then you shouldn't carry at all. You can't because it's not there. I never said it. Stop being so presumptuous.

It's hilarious that you are telling me to "do my own research". I have, and lots of it, but I'll patiently wait while you provide proof that mousegun calibers consistently perform at the same level as service calibers.

BTW, just because you were lucky enough to escape without firing a shot doesn't mean that everyone will experience the same good fortune. Are you denying the fact that there are documented cases where just presenting the weapon did not stop the attack?

Why is it so important to you that I agree with you?

Edited by DaddyO, 27 February 2012 - 06:32 PM.

[daddyo]

Not too long ago .380 was the most widely used PD gun caliber in the WORLD. It is still largely issued in Europe and many other places.

I hate to tell you this, but we're not in Europe. Besides, if they're doing it over there, that's a really good reason NOT to do it over here.

[A10thunderbolt]

I am afraid that I might be attacked by someone wearing body armor (maybe Two vests) so I always carry my .308 rifle to get maximum penetration and expansion.

[daddyo]

I am afraid that I might be attacked by someone wearing body armor (maybe Two vests) so I always carry my .308 rifle to get maximum penetration and expansion.

I bet you get stopped by the cops a lot.....

[A10thunderbolt]

I thought they were profiling Hillbillys.

[daddyo]

BTW, not really worried about "maximum" penetration, just "adequate".

[A10thunderbolt]

I carry a .357, but I think if I had a choice between a stick and a .380 I would take the .380. Not only is it more deadly than a stick in the hands of a weaker person (I'm not implying women are weak, just saying someone who can't handle a larger caliber) It has a better chance of deterring an attack.

[daddyo]

I carry a .357, but I think if I had a choice between a stick and a .380 I would take the .380. Not only is it more deadly than a stick in the hands of a weaker person (I'm not implying women are weak, just saying someone who can't handle a larger caliber) It has a better chance of deterring an attack.

If those were my only two choices, I would choose the .380. But the same reasoning applies to choosing a .357 over a .380. The .357 has proven, consistent (key word here) effectiveness as a SD round. Between the two, there just isn't any reason to choose the .380, except for personal preference, which by itself is not a very good reason.

I'm serious about protecting my life and the lives of the ones I care about.

[A10thunderbolt]

I have yet to find a way to make a woman do anything other than what she want's, so I understand the choice of a .380 to convince someone to at least carry something.

[RobertNashville]

Please point everyone to my post where I said if you don't carry a service caliber, then you shouldn't carry at all. You can't because it's not there. I never said it. Stop being so presumptuous.

You didn't say that but you seem to imply that...you keep alluding to the "pointy stick" so what did you mean to imply if not that a "mousegun" is no better than that? And if it's no better than that it follows that the "mousegun" is not worth carrying. If that's not what you mean you haven't said so; you just keep talking about the pointy stick.

It's hilarious that you are telling me to "do my own research". I have, and lots of it, but I'll patiently wait while you provide proof that mousegun calibers consistently perform at the same level as service calibers.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "same level of service" but I am quite sure I never said that a small caliber is equal to (provides the same level of service) as a "big caliber".

BTW, just because you were lucky enough to escape without firing a shot doesn't mean that everyone will experience the same good fortune. Are you denying the fact that there are documented cases where just presenting the weapon did not stop the attack?

My personal experience jives with the experience of the 92% in the study I cited that had a similar outcome; that would indicate that my experience is not unusual nor simply due to luck.

I've neither denied or as far as I know, even hinted that there aren't plenty cases where it was necessary to shoot; of course there are; but that doesn't mean doing so is the most frequent use of a defensive firearm.

Why is it so important to you that I agree with you?

What's important to me is that anyone reading this thread not come away thinking that if they don't carry a large caliber that they are wasting their time - it's important because a little 22, 25, 32 or 380 can most certainly save a person's life one day if it's with them and not not sitting in a nightstand drawer somewhere.

Arguing about the effectiveness of handgun calibers can be entertaining but is otherwise a bit useless anyway and sort of misses the point...people should carry the largest handgun in the biggest caliber that they are willing to carry, able to carry given their circumstances and are competent using regardless of how "big" the handgun or the caliber that might be. However, let's be clear; if we ever are in a confrontation and we have a CHOICE of weapons, it would be rather stupid to depend on ANY handgun of ANY caliber rather than a good rifle.

The best ballistics of any handgun is pitiful compared to a good fighting rifle; we carry handguns because of the convenience and because in most places; you can't just walk around with a AR on our shoulder.

P.S. "You are only outgunned if you miss" - Col Jeff Cooper

Edited by RobertNashville, 27 February 2012 - 08:02 PM.