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Regal Movie theater: Green Hills Mall (Not Legal)


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34 replies to this topic

#1 viajeromy

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 09:31 AM

Before entering any place of business I always check for a sign. You would be amazed how hard they can be to spot, making them technically not enforcable under the letter of the law. But when I do see a posting I have to make the decision to disarm and enter or leave. On principle, I will always leave.

 

On this particular night I had a free movie ticket. We were in a group date (yeah, I carry on dates. She is cool with it) going to see a 10PM showing. I walked in open carrying and everything was great, heck I even bought us a DR Pepper. When approching the attendent who collects tickets I was approached by the manager and our conversation to the best of my recolection went like so:

 

Jeromy: Hello

MGR: Hello sir, we have a no firearms policy for this theater.

Jeromy: Really, well I didn't see your posting otherwise I wouldnt be here.

MGR: Yes Sir, it's posted at the front door

Jeromy: Well I saw the no smoking sign clearly, but not your no firearms posting. I've even carried here before.

(CPL from the Metro Police walks up from behind silently)

MGR: You can place your weapon in your car and return if you like, I am just following the policy here.

(At this time my friends, of whom do not share the same enthusiasm as me are starting to look at me funny)

CPL: Are you parked nearby?

Jeromy: Yes, I'm close. I would just leave but the ticket was free. So I guess I'm going to place it in the car. I'll be right back guys.

 

So I turn around and walk out the doors and realize the MP is on my tail. So after walking out the door he calls me over and I ask "Can I help you Corperal?" He said that he just wanted to make sure I don't return to the theater with the handgun so I said sarcastically that he doesnt need to follow this dangerous man. He actually took it quite well, asked if I were military of course. He did mention that having a weapon even in the PL of the mall wasn't legal, but I was certain he was mistaken (and he wasn't acting on it so W/E.) So as I'm walking back I show the Man my empty holster and he seems satisfied. I say "ok, ok. I HAVE to see this sign." So i stared at the door for a good couple of seconds and I spotted it, there in all it's glory or illegible fine print. Behold, this posting was appox. 2x3 inches at most with text and a tiny little crossed out gun, on a normal sized piece of printer paper with all of their other "Rules of Conduct." I told the CPL, "You have got to be kidding me. Legally, as you must know, that is not acceptable. But he asked me so I did." The CPL said that he would have a word with management on the topic of the posting.

 

It wasn't the craziest experience. I half way expected this to happen in that part of town :/ I will say that I was a bit salty about being in that situation due to the lack of posting. However, both the officer and the manager handled the situation professionally. I wasnt being rude, so they weren't either.

 

I'm an NCG man now...


Edited by viajeromy, 21 July 2013 - 07:53 PM.


#2 JG55

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 11:35 AM

Just curious but how was the manager able to see or know  that you were carrying ? 



#3 Broomhead

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 11:54 AM

If it has a gunbuster emblem (slashed out gun) then it is legal.



#4 TMF

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 12:03 PM

Whether or not they were properly posted or posted at all, they can ask you to leave if you're carrying and if you don't you are trespassing.

I've been carrying for a while and have never had anyone approach me who noticed, and I doubt anyone has. The fact the manager made you and there was a cop that seemed to materialize at the very beginning of the manager's conversation with you tells me you need to adjust your carry technique if you wish to avoid such inconveniences.

#5 Motasyco

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 12:44 PM

Just curious but how was the manager able to see or know  that you were carrying ? 

 

This is exactly what I thought as soon as I read that the manager approached him.  I probably wouldn't have seen the small gunbuster.  Nobody but me, and maybe my date, would know I was carrying.  There would have been no incident and the sign on the door would remain small and inconspicuous.  Encouraging "a word with the management on the topic of posting" could result in a change of signage that could be "enforceable under the letter of the law".  Perhaps that was your intention?

 

If I'm going to be within a large herd of sheeple, I prefer to conceal.  About the only place I open carry is on my property.  OK, maybe Walmart.  ;)



#6 jtmaze

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 12:53 PM

And here we go again. OC or CC. :popcorn:

#7 tartanphantom

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 04:00 PM

ALL Regal theaters are posted... very poorly, but yes, posted.

 

But then begs the question: were you OC'ing, and if so, why, of all places would you choose to do so at a movie theater? There's still a lot of sensitivity about the Aurora, CO incident, particularly among theater personnel. I don't take issue with OC in general, and yes, I do OC on rare occasion. Even so, "prudence" is the word of the day when making a decision to OC in public... unless, of course, you were doing it to make some sort of statement... wherein your motives will obviously be questioned.



#8 DaveTN

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 04:52 PM

And here we go again. OC or CC. :popcorn:

Well, in this case it led to disarmament. If a shooter had entered the theater there may have been some people that could defend themselves; but those that chose not to conceal would not be in that group.

On a lighter note I had to laugh when I read this…
 

I would just leave but the ticket was free.

Not much conviction there, the hardliners are going to give you a hard time. smilielol5.gif



#9 nra37922

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 05:15 PM

Well quite legal to OC the question is why does someone want to take a change of 1) stirring up the sheep and 2) making a target of themselves.  There are ways to almost always carry that almost nobody can ever detect without great deal of scrutiny.  But this subject has been beat to death over and over and over again.

 

Posted or not you did the right thing as you could have been hit with trespassing charges, and god knows what else.  Now you as an individual have been warned by their manager so I wouldn't try carrying there ever again.


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#10 Oh Shoot

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 06:05 PM

... Behold, this posting was appox. 2x3 inches at most with text and a tiny little crossed out gun, on a normal sized piece of printer paper with all of their other "Rules of Conduct." I told the CPL, "You have got to be kidding me. Legally, as you must know, that is not acceptable. ...

 

Nothing in 39-17-1359 says that you can't be arrested and/or convicted for carrying past a statutorily non-compliant sign, and no case law exists to use as precedent either as far as we know.

 

And their sign was even compliant as to content, as the gunbuster alone is sufficient, and the size is not described as in the park carry statute, so that is another matter of case law that hasn't apparently arisen. And I'm not even sure that size and placement of an otherwise compliant posting would become a matter of universal agreement even with some case law, but rather decided on a case by case basis as long as the statute doesn't specify it.

 

- OS


Edited by Oh Shoot, 21 July 2013 - 06:10 PM.


#11 monkeylizard

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 06:15 PM

What OS said. And BTW, Regal reposted their "rules" sheets a couple of months ago and the gunbuster is larger now. Like the OP said, about 2x3 (maybe not quite that big). On the old sheet, it was the size of a quarter. Since the gunbuster is statutorialy compliant, I'm assuming the OP is thinking it doesn't meet the "plainly visible" part of TCA 39-17-1359. It's definitely a LOT smaller than their 6 x 6 "no smoking" sign, but it's not hidden, and it's not mixed in with a bunch of other stickers. It might be hard to argue that theirs isn't "plainly visible". But as OS pointed out, that may not matter anyway.

 

As for Green Hills Mall parking lot being off limits, the officer was incorrect. That mall does not have postings at the entrances to its parking lots like some other malls (Cool Springs & Rivergate) unless they've put them up in the last few days. If they are posted (I really don't think they are) then the new TCA 39-17-1313 comes in to play. Keep it in your car and out of sight.


Edited by monkeylizard, 21 July 2013 - 06:16 PM.


#12 tartanphantom

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 06:20 PM

What OS said. And BTW, Regal reposted their "rules" sheets a couple of months ago and the gunbuster is larger now. Like the OP said, about 2x3 (maybe not quite that big). On the old sheet, it was the size of a quarter. Since the gunbuster is statutorialy compliant, I'm assuming the OP is thinking it doesn't meet the "plainly visible" part of TCA 39-17-1359. It's definitely a LOT smaller than their 6 x 6 "no smoking" sign, but it's not hidden, and it's not mixed in with a bunch of other stickers. It might be hard to argue that theirs isn't "plainly visible". But as OS pointed out, that may not matter anyway.

 

As for Green Hills Mall parking lot being off limits, the officer was incorrect. That mall does not have postings at the entrances to its parking lots like some other malls (Cool Springs & Rivergate) unless they've put them up in the last few days. If they are posted (I really don't think they are) then the new TCA 39-17-1313 comes in to play. Keep it in your car and out of sight.

 

Agreed. The Green Hills Mall area parking lot is NOT posted. They do have rules posted on signs around the parking lot, but there are no references to weapons contained therein.



#13 viajeromy

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 07:50 PM

Wow, I was not expecting so many replies. Ok, now to clear up some questions. My date and I were on the motorcycle, my C-tac IWB holster just won't cut it with the seating position of my sportbike. I was wearing a longsleeve shirt, jeans, black kydex holster, beretta 92fs @ the 5 O'clock postition. So in other words I don't dress like a mall ninja or wear my combat boots and boonie cap, lol. I practice OC practically everywhere right now, as there are very few posted places in my town, I ride a motorcycle daily and it's more comfortable and secure, and it's my right to do so in the great state of TN.

 

I do not wish to make this an OC vs CC thread but I will give you folks my perspective on it for your closure. The situational awareness of the average civilian/sheep is almost non existent. I'd say about the only person that knows I'm carrying in a store is me, the cashier, and the person behind me. Us permit holders or those who have been through trial by fire think and observe the world differently (sheepdog),  so we notice things like "printing", body language, clothing, and of course exposed weapons. I belive that I have the right as an American to wear my weapon however I choose so long as it does not endanger the safety of the general population. I take people's feeling into consideration, I do. But the opinions of the uneducated and weak do not hold much weight in my mind. After all, these people I speak of almost banned everything worth having and gave the federal government the means to track the armed populace.

 

Green Hills is definetly not posted, but for the sake of not writing a novel on the first post I didn't get into it. Rivergate is posted, and that's how I knew the rule.

 

Oh Shoot, spot on. I was reffering to the "clearly visable" part of the text. Something that has never had a standard to follow, and thanks to the CPL, still doesn't. haha. I do think that with a decent lawer, a clean record, and a photograph of the rules sheet and the no smoking sign; the judge would have to find it equally as absurd as me.

 

I am aware that I MAY not have broken the law, but the owner/manager has every right to ask me to leave. I am fairly read up on all of TN's weapon laws and this forum.

 

I don't spend my money at places that don't allow me to carry. but since I didn't pay and my friends were all waiting, I didnt want to be that guy this night.

 

 

Thank you for all of you're questions and concerns.


Edited by viajeromy, 21 July 2013 - 07:53 PM.


#14 Oh Shoot

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 09:25 PM

....Oh Shoot, spot on. I was reffering to the "clearly visable" part of the text. Something that has never had a standard to follow, and thanks to the CPL, still doesn't. haha. I do think that with a decent lawer, a clean record, and a photograph of the rules sheet and the no smoking sign; the judge would have to find it equally as absurd as me

 

Likely, but look at the cost and hassle just to prove it. And likely the next guy would have to do the same.

 

That's the trouble with TN weapons law that (in my opinion) begin with an unconstitutional (both federally and state) premise that carrying a loaded firearm is illegal, and one must have an exception or defense to that -- even the permit itself is merely a defense, and that's the reason carrying a firearm meets the terms of reasonable suspicion to stop you and check your credentials.

 

- OS


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#15 QuietDan

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 10:11 PM

I know of at least one city in Mid-Tenn that has a formal "no guns in parks" law on the books and it's been explained that it is solely to keep the OC folks out because it scares the sheep (ala Voldemort), and that the city could care less if HCP holders conceal carry, and that they will not ban, confront or prosecute HCP holders who are CC in the city parks.

 

I'm thinking that, theaters especially, but also restaurants that ban guns verbally or with non-legal signage, are essentially saying that OC is not wanted ('cause it scares the sheep) and that they will whistle in the wind and look the other way for HCP holders that discretely CC.

 

I'm not gonna say I've ever discretely CC'd past an improperly posted no-guns sign . . . but I could see where people might do so.

 

For those who insist on the letter of the law (who won't even lie to their girlfriend about a dress that makes her butt look fat . . .) and insist on OC because it's their right, then the theater or restaurant manager is also well within their rights to send the open carrier back out the door.

 

Business owners are pretty smart folks for the most part and have to deal with a lot of rules and regulations while concentrating on maximizing the dollars into the cash register. I'm thinking often in business no one wants to go to the letter of the law unless pushed and a lot of wink-wink, look-the-other way goes on in this world.  For some, it doesn't make good business sense to run off good customers with guns, or frighten good customers who don't want guns around, and an improperly posted sign splits the difference.

 

In a lot of ways, if you don't push people, they don't push you.There is a middle ground in some businesses that basically says, ". . . if you pretend you didn't see my no-guns sign, I'll pretend I didn't see your gun."

 

IMO.


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#16 viajeromy

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 10:31 PM

Well put Dan.


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#17 DaveTN

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 10:38 PM

I do not wish to make this an OC vs CC thread but I will give you folks my perspective on it for your closure. The situational awareness of the average civilian/sheep is almost non existent.

 
You might be surprised. Should something have happened in that theater you may have found that you owed your life to some of those people that you thought were “sheep”.  Just because someone doesn’t make a big deal out of carrying a gun; doesn’t mean they aren’t prepared.
Do you think I’m safe in saying… more prepared and more situationally aware than you were?
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#18 viajeromy

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 10:47 PM

Well Dave I probably gave off the wrong meaning with that line. I was reffering to the people who get scared or butthurt when they see a weapon. In reply to the sensitive nature of a theater. Not undermining someone's abilities simply because they are not packing.


Edited by viajeromy, 21 July 2013 - 10:49 PM.


#19 jgradyc

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 11:13 PM

 I'm thinking often in business no one wants to go to the letter of the law unless pushed and a lot of wink-wink, look-the-other way goes on in this world.  For some, it doesn't make good business sense to run off good customers with guns, or frighten good customers who don't want guns around, and an improperly posted sign splits the difference.

^This is probably right. Besides, how hard is it is conceal? 

 

Pocket holster... nearly invisible. Cargo pants side pocket... nearly invisible. OWB at 5 o'clock with a nice tank top and open Hawaiian shirt or OWB with an oversized t-shirt with shirt tail out... only visible if you lose situational awareness.


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#20 JG55

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 12:35 AM

To each hiis own thoughts on cc ing or oc ing. I prefer to cc for a couple of reasons. 1) I prefer the element of surprise if something does happen. 2) I prefer to not draw attention to myself 3) if I miss posted sign, I don't want the hassle it might bring on me. By ccing I keep a low profile and that is the way I prefer it.
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