67 yo woman charged with Agg Assault for drawing when she felt threatened

[monkeylizard]

Hope this isn't a repost.

 

http://www.newschannel5.com/news/local-news/woman-arrested-after-she-said-she-pulled-gun-in-self-defense

 

Interesting story. I'd like to know more.

Edited November 10, 2015 by monkeylizard

[Omega]

One to keep an eye on for sure, seems we are missing some important pieces to this story.

[bersaguy]

I saw the interview on the news last night and I do have mixed thoughts on this issue but after listening to other witnesses at the scene I'm gonna say she is going to be charged as stated. I only have a few questions at this point that seems odd and that is the guy approaching a woman loading groceries in her car and he approaches a complete stranger and asks for a light for a cigarette and then later cannot be found to be interviewed by news media for comment. They didn't have any trouble finding so called witnesses but not the guy that called 911? They also have a video of the entire incident that I would like to see. There is a few questions I would like answered before passing any type of judgement in the case...............jmho

[monkeylizard]

Yeah, that seems to be where I am right now.

 

If I try to think of what a reasonable person would think/do given her circumstances, I can certainly understand that she would be afraid. Does that rise to the level of fear of serious bodily harm or death on its own? I just can't quite get there without other information, but I'm not nor have I ever been nor will I ever be a small 67 year old woman so it's hard to know.

 

If I were the judge I'd probably see if they couldn't work out an understanding that approaching strangers in a parking lot (especially people likely to be crime victims like the elderly) isn't exactly the smartest thing to do, and that a stranger approaching with no other threatening signs doesn't normally rise to the level of being in fear of life or limb. If so, let's drop the charges, learn from this, and be on our way.

[rugerla1]

Yeah, that seems to be where I am right now.
 
If I try to think of what a reasonable person would think/do given her circumstances, I can certainly understand that she would be afraid. Does that rise to the level of fear of serious bodily harm or death on its own? I just can't quite get there without other information, but I'm not nor have I ever been nor will I ever be a small 67 year old woman so it's hard to know.
 
If I were the judge I'd probably see if they couldn't work out an understanding that approaching strangers in a parking lot (especially people likely to be crime victims like the elderly) isn't exactly the smartest thing to do, and that a stranger approaching with no other threatening signs doesn't normally rise to the level of being in fear of life or limb. If so, let's drop the charges, learn from this, and be on our way.

I agree. Also, I wonder what the chances are of this disappearing victim is one those "You got an extra dollar on ya?" after getting the light. After all, he just bought cigarettes and no lighter. And also you have to take into account that this particular Walmart has had more than its fair share of crime in the parking lot over the past year. Approaching an older lady in the parking lot for anything would make me think she's going to be frightened. To the point of fearing for her life? I don't know, because like you said I'm not her.

[bersaguy]

Yeah, that seems to be where I am right now.

 

If I try to think of what a reasonable person would think/do given her circumstances, I can certainly understand that she would be afraid. Does that rise to the level of fear of serious bodily harm or death on its own? I just can't quite get there without other information, but I'm not nor have I ever been nor will I ever be a small 67 year old woman so it's hard to know.

 

If I were the judge I'd probably see if they couldn't work out an understanding that approaching strangers in a parking lot (especially people likely to be crime victims like the elderly) isn't exactly the smartest thing to do, and that a stranger approaching with no other threatening signs doesn't normally rise to the level of being in fear of life or limb. If so, let's drop the charges, learn from this, and be on our way.

 

That was kind of my thinking but with all of the gun trash out there it would be hard to figure how any judge is going to look at it unless she gets a older female judge that may see her side to a point. If the parking lots was as busy as they said, I don't know if she is really going to have a real case of fear for her life. If it were late at night or a more secluded place maybe. Just don't know..... :shrug:

[KahrMan]

The victim did not disappear.  He stayed and talked to the cops.  He did not talk to the media but I would not have either.

[Dolomite_supafly]

Close to a month ago I almost pulled my gun over a possible threat.

 

We were parked in a restaurant parking lot after dark meeting someone to buy something. A lady and a man pulled up next to us in a truck. The guy was in the passenger seat and opened the door right into our SUV. Then he looked at me with a confused look when the gap wasn't big enough for him to get out. He began trying to force his door open even more pecking at our SUV with each try. I yelled at him as did my wife. His wife backed their car up after I told him that is what they should do rather than door ding our car repeatedly. He walked up, without saying a word, and began wiping the door dings off the side of our car. My wife pushed his hand away and told him not to touch our car. He got a little puffy and my wife told his wife the best thing to do is just go away. He and his wife walked inside a restaurant then came back out and drove to the other side of the restaurant. Without a doubt the guy was intoxicated. He never said a single word and he was really confused as to why his door would not open all the way even though he was about a foot from our SUV.

 

A few minutes later the guy we were meeting came around the side of our SUV as my wife and I sat in the back. He was close to our SUV on the driver's side and because the windows have a heavy tint it was like he came out of nowhere. I knew we were there to meet someone but had no clue who he was or what he looked like. My wife seen the guy we were meeting first and jumped up after being startled which caused me to jump up. I start moving for cover as I was clearing my gun from its holster. Before I was completely clear I realized it was the guy we were meeting and I nonchalantly pulled my shirt back down over the gun.

 

I would say I was 90% cleared by the time I realized what was going on and the guy we were meeting acted like he was a little uneasy. Maybe it was because he was also meeting a stranger or maybe he seen the gun.

 

My initial thought was it was the first guy coming back because he was pissed because my wife told him to leave and not say a word.

 

BTW, we were buying a rat.

[monkeylizard]

The part about him never getting closer than 10 feet is presented the wrong way in the story. The story makes that out to be a factor of why he isn't a threat. To me, if he's at 10 feet than he can be on her faster than she can react, especially as an older person with (presumably) slowing reflexes, and she's busy putting groceries away. I see the 10 feet thing in her favor, not his.

[monkeylizard]

Close to a month ago I almost pulled my gun over a possible threat.

<<snip>>

BTW, we were buying a rat.

 

I don't always buy rats, but when I do, it's from strangers in parking lots at night.

[KahrMan]

I don't always buy rats, but when I do, it's from strangers in parking lots at night.

:rofl:

[Oh Shoot]

:rofl:

 

I laughed out loud too!

 

- OS

[enfield]

Do we give the same 'benefit of the doubt' to incidents involving cops? Do we wait for more info before passing expert judgement? From what I've seen on this forum the answer, frequently, is no.

[TrickyNicky]

Do we give the same 'benefit of the doubt' to incidents involving cops? Do we wait for more info before passing expert judgement? From what I've seen on this forum the answer, frequently, is no.

 

 

To be fair, theres a world of difference between the average cop, and the average 67 year old lady. 

[Oh Shoot]

To be fair, theres a world of difference between the average cop, and the average 67 year old lady. 

 

I dunno, she might be in better shape than some I see. Certainly this 67 year old Oh Shoot is. ;)

 

- OS

[conn_air7]

Close to a month ago I almost pulled my gun over a possible threat.

We were parked in a restaurant parking lot after dark meeting someone to buy something. A lady and a man pulled up next to us in a truck. The guy was in the passenger seat and opened the door right into our SUV. Then he looked at me with a confused look when the gap wasn't big enough for him to get out. He began trying to force his door open even more pecking at our SUV with each try. I yelled at him as did my wife. His wife backed their car up after I told him that is what they should do rather than door ding our car repeatedly. He walked up, without saying a word, and began wiping the door dings off the side of our car. My wife pushed his hand away and told him not to touch our car. He got a little puffy and my wife told his wife the best thing to do is just go away. He and his wife walked inside a restaurant then came back out and drove to the other side of the restaurant. Without a doubt the guy was intoxicated. He never said a single word and he was really confused as to why his door would not open all the way even though he was about a foot from our SUV.

A few minutes later the guy we were meeting came around the side of our SUV as my wife and I sat in the back. He was close to our SUV on the driver's side and because the windows have a heavy tint it was like he came out of nowhere. I knew we were there to meet someone but had no clue who he was or what he looked like. My wife seen the guy we were meeting first and jumped up after being startled which caused me to jump up. I start moving for cover as I was clearing my gun from its holster. Before I was completely clear I realized it was the guy we were meeting and I nonchalantly pulled my shirt back down over the gun.

I would say I was 90% cleared by the time I realized what was going on and the guy we were meeting acted like he was a little uneasy. Maybe it was because he was also meeting a stranger or maybe he seen the gun.

My initial thought was it was the first guy coming back because he was pissed because my wife told him to leave and not say a word.

BTW, we were buying a rat.

Poor rat didn't know what trouble he caused!


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[ou812]

I hope she never visits the Bartlett wally world.... She would never put her gun away, spinning around and around like a top in the parking lot!!!!     

 

One night a few days after we moved here.  The wife and I drove to the Bartlett wally world to get something for the house.  It was about 9pm...I was getting out of the suv when this young man came running up next to the door as I was getting out. He said sorry, excuse me sir push his way past the half open door....I was like WTF....I was half way out of the door of the SUV the 2nd time, when I hear again.. excuse me sir,  This time it was a Bartlett Police officer who was chasing the young man!  

[MrsMonkeyMan2500]

Just my 2 cents here but I had an incident a month or so ago that I almost pulled my gun out. At a car wash in broad daylight. He was also about 10 feet away. I have always been taught the 21' or less can/will be too close. So 10' to me is totally acceptable if the threat is real. There are pieces to this story that are missing. But I can tell you that when it happened to me, I placed my hand on my gun because there was a man standing at the front of my vehicle while I was wiping the dashboard. I asked him if he needed help with something while I was getting ready to draw. He had sunglasses on, never looked away from me and never verbally answered me. He just shook his head no and walked away.

I was shaken. I immediately got in my truck, told the guys at the car wash what happened and to keep an eye on him but as I was talking to them he left. I am glad it didn't escalate but I know her feeling. This will be an interesting one to watch. Edited November 12, 2015 by MrsMonkeyMan2500

[BlackHawk93]

Per the report in the paper:

 

 

THE DAILY NEWS JOURNAL 

MURFREESBORO — A Murfreesboro woman told police officers she pointed a gun at a man in the Walmart p arking lot because he approached her aggressively, according to the police report provided to The Daily News Journal.

The woman Sherry McLain, 67, of Lascassas was arrested. Her bond was set at $15,000.

The incident took place around 4 p.m. Friday at the Wal-Mart on Old Fort when the suspect McLain told officers she was putting groceries away in her vehicle when she heard a black man “hollering behind her.”

M cLain said the man came toward her aggressively, so she held up her hand and asked him to stop. According to the report, MLain said the man continued to come at her, so she told him she h ad a gun and she drew it and pointed it at him. She said the man then walked away from her, toward another woman who was with a child, “still hollering.”

The officer secured the handgun and interviewed the woman with the child as well as the man in question, James Crutchfield, 52, of Murfreesboro. The officer also reviewed security video.

Crutchfield told the officer he only approached to the woman to see if she had a c igarette lighter because he had just purchased a pack of cigarettes and did not have one. He said the woman immediately pulled the gun out, pointed it at him, and began screaming.

The officer spoke with the other woman, Diane Miller of Columbia, who told him that Crutchfield ran up to her, yelling that the woman had a gun. According to the report, Miller said she looked and saw McLain still pointing the gun in her direction.

Miller said Crutchfield told her to call the police, then ran back into the store.

The security video showed Crutchfield walking past McLain, then turning toward her. But he did not approach her more make any threatening gestures, the police report stated.

O nce McClain pulled the gun, it said, Crutchfield can be seen walking backwards, away from her, with his hands in the air, until he sees Miller and her child. The police report states the video shows McClain lowering her gun until Crutchfield reaches Miller and yells at her, then s he again points the gun in his direction, while he was standing next to the woman and child.

The officer stated that there was no evident threat to McLain and she had acted unlawfully by drawing a firearm on Crutchfield. She was arrested and charged with aggravated assault and reckless endangerment with a deadly weapon.

 

To me it seems she was negligent in aiming the weapon at the man as he stood next to an innocent bystander holding a child. Thats where I feel she used bad judgement. I too think it is suspicious that he just bought a pack of cigarettes yet didn't have a lighter. Whether or not she felt she was in any danger is hard for anyone but her to say. 

 

In my HCP class years ago there were about 10 women in there and most all of them were asking about when they would be within the law drawing their weapon on someone. To several of us in the class it seemed like they were more interested in what they could use an an excuse to pull a weapon vs. using it as a last resort in a situation where it was justified. Several of us even mentioned that we hoped we never walked up on these women in a parking lot somewhere.

 

Im sure she was frightened, and at the time felt it necessary to pull her weapon. But responsibility goes along with the privilege of carrying a weapon and I think she was irresponsible in pointing the weapon in the direction of someone other than the person who threatened her. The rest is up to a judge to decide.

[QuietDan]

I think it was wrong for her to be charged. Common enough robbery prelude: "Hey Lady, ya got a light?" A distraction before a purse snatching in almost every case. If he was within 21 feet of her and aggressive and not stopping his approach when told to, he is in the wrong. You have less than two seconds to stop an assault from someone who gets within 21 feet of you. If it was the Police Officer himself that had been approached in such a manner, the officer would not hesitate to draw down on the aggressor. The woman did not shoot the perpetrator, she just stopped him. A reasonable person, the standard, would be scared out of her wits. Though arrested by the Officer, this is not the final word. The DA will have to get hold of it, and a Grand Jury. This will get No Billed by a Grand Jury. If it got that far, no Jury in the country would convict. IMO.

[Oh Shoot]

I think it was wrong for her to be charged. Common enough robbery prelude: "Hey Lady, ya got a light?" A distraction before a purse snatching in almost every case. If he was within 21 feet of her and aggressive and not stopping his approach when told to, he is in the wrong. You have less than two seconds to stop an assault from someone who gets within 21 feet of you. If it was the Police Officer himself that had been approached in such a manner, the officer would not hesitate to draw down on the aggressor. The woman did not shoot the perpetrator, she just stopped him. A reasonable person, the standard, would be scared out of her wits. Though arrested by the Officer, this is not the final word. The DA will have to get hold of it, and a Grand Jury. This will get No Billed by a Grand Jury. If it got that far, no Jury in the country would convict. IMO.

 

If she had just showed the firearm rather than pointing it him it perhaps/likely wouldn't have garnered the charge.

 

Pointing it at him once he actually moved away, and while standing next to a bystander was especially egregious, and this was the part that undoubtedly got the reckless endangerment count tacked on.

 

- OS

[DaveTN]

Many people will walk far closer to you than 10 feet. You don’t get to pull a gun on them because you are scared.

I don’t know what will happen with the DA; I would guess a plea bargain with the felony aggravated assault and reckless endangerment reduced to misdemeanors with court supervision. Every incident is handled on its own merit. I think she might have been okay if she hadn’t pointed the gun in the direction of the innocent bystanders when there clearly was no threat.

[FTE]

Close to a month ago I almost pulled my gun over a possible threat.

We were parked in a restaurant parking lot after dark meeting someone to buy something. A lady and a man pulled up next to us in a truck. The guy was in the passenger seat and opened the door right into our SUV. Then he looked at me with a confused look when the gap wasn't big enough for him to get out. He began trying to force his door open even more pecking at our SUV with each try. I yelled at him as did my wife. His wife backed their car up after I told him that is what they should do rather than door ding our car repeatedly. He walked up, without saying a word, and began wiping the door dings off the side of our car. My wife pushed his hand away and told him not to touch our car. He got a little puffy and my wife told his wife the best thing to do is just go away. He and his wife walked inside a restaurant then came back out and drove to the other side of the restaurant. Without a doubt the guy was intoxicated. He never said a single word and he was really confused as to why his door would not open all the way even though he was about a foot from our SUV.

A few minutes later the guy we were meeting came around the side of our SUV as my wife and I sat in the back. He was close to our SUV on the driver's side and because the windows have a heavy tint it was like he came out of nowhere. I knew we were there to meet someone but had no clue who he was or what he looked like. My wife seen the guy we were meeting first and jumped up after being startled which caused me to jump up. I start moving for cover as I was clearing my gun from its holster. Before I was completely clear I realized it was the guy we were meeting and I nonchalantly pulled my shirt back down over the gun.

I would say I was 90% cleared by the time I realized what was going on and the guy we were meeting acted like he was a little uneasy. Maybe it was because he was also meeting a stranger or maybe he seen the gun.

My initial thought was it was the first guy coming back because he was pissed because my wife told him to leave and not say a word.

BTW, we were buying a rat.

This is why I prefer not to meet strangers at night. Also a good reason not to stand or sit directly next to a large vehicle.

That story could have ended much worse if the seller would have also been armed. Glad it didn't.


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[FTE]

Based on the information presented, it sounds like she should be charged. Given her age....is guess they'd plead it down.


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[jgradyc]

Hopefully, this case has garnered enough national attention for some guns rights organizations to make sure she has a decent attorney. 

 

That set up.... buying cigarettes with no lighter sounds like BS... an alibi so he could defend his statement to a cop if things went south in his con or whatever he was doing. I'd like to know what priors this guy has. His retreating to a woman with a small child saying, "she pulled a gun on me" also sounds like a pre-planned action. This just doesn't smell right. 

 

I read somewhere that the surveillance camera showed him walking by her and then coming back. Is that what happened or am I confusing this? I couldn't find any reference to it in the story or the TV news video. If that happened, it would be even more suspicious.

 

EDITED: Yes... I found it.

EDITED AGAIN: Yeah, I agree she didn't handle this right, but she never fired the gun and there's no way a 67-year-old can draw a weapon with a threat 10 feet away.

 

The security video showed Crutchfield walking past McLain, then turning toward her. But he did not approach her more make any threatening gestures, the police report stated."

http://www.wgnsradio.com/follow-up-gun-drawn-at-wal-mart-on-old-fort-parkway-arrest-made-cms-29633

Edited November 12, 2015 by jgradyc