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Here's one answer for you. A former co-worker of mine was always very active in his church. He also has a handgun permit and carries all the time. He retired a few years ago and now volunteers several days a week as church security. They always have an armed volunteer in the building. On Sundays, during services, there may be a half dozen or more armed people there. That's how you deal with situations like this. Just because its a church doesn't mean you have to be unprotected lambs for the slaughter. More churches need to realize this.

This guy was convicted in a Military Court of domestic violence, did a year in a military prison and received a Bad Conduct discharge. Reports say that he bought the rifle legally. How did that happen? I'll grant you that mental illness is a real problem in this country. But asking politicians to fix the problem opens up a whole new can of worms. Say that they do pass laws to get the mentally ill out of society. My guess is that it won't be long before many perfectly normal people will be facing false accusations and be forced to prove themselves innocent in a messed up system that has already declared them guilty. And just who will be charged with making the determination of if you're sane or not? The probability of abuse and violation of people's rights is mind boggling.

Keeping in mind that churches (especially large ones) can often be as risk averse as any business, I interpreted John's comment about the LEO type training to be a wind out of the sails argument/solution for those that would not want to implement security teams due to possible legal risk involved. Havinging helped a couple churches establish and implement similar security protocols I can say that their biggest concern is usually the perceived risk of a churchgoer dropping/loosing a firearm that a child could pick up or someone accidentally shooting someone. Believe it or not many pastors and church administrators are not gun people, some are, but most I have encountered are not, so they often have to be educated. With the uptick in these types of attacks maybe some will educate themselves and be more open to reasonable security measures. My dad is a pastor of a small church in California and he has been carrying in the pulpit for years. He said that he has the best view in the house from the pulpit and he shoots/trains regularly to maintain proficiency. He takes being the shepard of the flock seriously in many ways. I know the Warrior Poet personally and I can assure you that he does not think that everyone needs to have LEO training to carry a gun, though as a firearms instructor he obviously feels passionate about people bettering themselves through training if possible. I don't think anyone can argue with the benefits of that.

In response to the church events in Knoxville a few years ago, my church now employs a uniformed local cop during normal services and other large events. So there's a police car in front of the building and the officer is inside, not doing traffic control.

I too think I would prefer to carry and attempt to protect my family and those around me rather than having a government/authority determine who is sane and who is not. Should access to mental healthcare be a thing? Of course it should. Just don’t go creating a list of sanes vs crazies and try to limit rights based on which list a person is on. Do we take away any other constitutional rights based on sanity? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Because it is different, terrorists are, for the most part, not mentally ill, they have an agenda and to further that agenda they use fear. Mentally ill people, again for the most part, just latch onto something and commit atrocious acts such as this to go out in a blaze of glory, punish someone, anyone, for a perceived slight, or just for the pure pleasure of killing. If some of the rumors about ANTIFA are true, then maybe this guy can fall into both these categories, as can some ISIS terrorists for that matter. Guys like Adam Lanza can be squarely put into the mentally ill category, as he had no reported political/social issues to advance. Others like Emanuel Kidega Samson and Dylann Roof (Church Shootings) may both be Racism, while others well, it can be argued that you have to have a screw loose to do things like this but some actually have an agenda to push and choose murder to advance it.

Cant we just call it for what it is. Domestic terrorism. You dont have to he a foreigner to commit it. Whats the difference between this guy and new york? One is mental illness and the other is terrorism? BS. THEY BOTH ARE the exact same thing.

President Trump said the mass shooting was indicative of a mental health problem, not gun laws in the United States … “Mental health is your problem here,” Trump said. “This isn’t a guns situation. This is a mental health problem at the highest level. It’s a very, very sad event.” The president added that “based on preliminary reports” the shooter was “a very deranged individual.” It sure is nice to hear that from a president, instead of the usual gun ban rhetoric...

I got my permit approved in 3 days. Here's to finally carrying legally! Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

Interesting. http://iwi.net/masada/ http://projectarms.com/2017/11/03/iwi-announces-massive-addition/ ABOUT MASADA IWI MASADA 9mm polymer framed striker-fired pistol was developed in order to provide an advanced solution to the modern battlefield requirements. Much more than just another striker-fired pistol, the MASADA features a low profile barrel for reduced perceived recoil. Fully ambidextrous controls and enhanced ergonomics which provide a natural and instinctive pointing grip angle. Three interchangeable wrap around back-straps coupled with the deep beavertail enabling the MASADA pistol to fit a wide variety of hand sizes. Masada’s frame is made of high strength, impact resistant fiberglass reinforced polymers. Like all IWI firearms, it is built to withstand and endure all types of military use and abuse in extremely harsh environmental conditions, MASADA utilizes a modular serialized high grade steel trigger mechanism housing that can be easily removed, allowing simple and easy disassembly and maintenance. MASADA’s trigger is designed to enhance the shooter’s accuracy and safety. The MASADA trigger has an average pull from 5.5 to 7 Lb. with a clean and crisp break and a positive reset. Featuring a built-in trigger safety, the pistol will not fire unless the trigger is pulled. The shooter’s security is further enhanced during cleaning and maintenance as there is no need to pull the trigger in order to field strip the weapon. MASADA comes with a polygonal rifled, cold hammer forged barrel with 1:10 RH twist rate. MASADA magazines offer a generous capacity of 17+1. Optimized ergonomic design Clean and crisp trigger reset with a built in trigger safety Fast, easy and safe disassembly without the need to pull the trigger components Combat-style sights, optional: fixed 3-dot tritium sights Low barrel axis for reduced perceived recoil 3 Interchangeable wrap around back-straps – S, M, L Large trigger guard for use with or without gloves Enhanced grip texture which enables faster follow-up shots in all conditions Fully ambidextrous operating controls: Slide stop lever, Magazine release, Manual Safety (by special order) FEATURES Striker-fired pistol Easy racked slide with improved front and rear cocking serrations External extractor integrated with a tactile and visual loaded chamber indicator Cold hammer-forged polygonal rifled barrel Integral MIL-STD 1913 picttiny rail 17+1 rds. black magazines with visible round count Fixed 3-dot Tritium illuminated night sights (optional) 100% interchangeability, with an interchangeable trigger mechanism housing that reduces maintenance and life cycle costs TECHNICAL DATA Caliber: 9X19mm Barrel length (mm): 104 (4.1″) Total length (mm): 189 Weight (approx. Kg) (w/o magazine): .650

I know that my situation was different the gun stores but back when I operated my auto repair center back years ago. They broke into my shop 4 times in 2 months. 1st time they got some high end tools and second time they got some high end testing equipment. I was lucky enough to have the testing equipment located in a pawn shop by police and returned to me. 3rd time this got that same equipment plus a few other pieces of equipment. All the tool boxes where chained to the walls and locked up so they weren't able to get any hand tools but I got tired of getting broke into and I had a few metro police officers that raded with me and I got one of them that wanted to make a few extra bucks to baby sit my shop a couple nights a week and he would sit up in a hill in a parking lot watching the shop. Well the 4th night he was there they showed up and he called for back up and he would down with a shotgun and when back up arrived he already had the 3 bad guys sitting on their hands in the parking lot of my shop. After that night I posted a sign that read Off Duty Police officer is security 3 nights a week, You pick the nights!! Never got broken into again. Ended up costing me $350.00 bucks paying him but ended my problems.

For what movie? Four guys trying to be four actors who played four legendary old west dudes. That’s a mouthful of a title.

I agree with some of the video but not all of it. He mentioned to make sure your members that carry have the same training as law enforcement. In all honesty I think any person that spends as much time at ranges as folks do here can probably shoot more accurately then many LEO's so asking them to have LEO training is a non starter in many cases........JMHO. I had a friend stop in today that attends a small church here in Gallatin and he and several friends of his that also attend the church and on any given Sunday there are 5 to 7 armed and trained people attending the service. Several of them are Vets and they have sent up a code word similar to the Secret Service. The congregation all know the code word is "GUN" that is announced loudly by who ever sees the possible shooter and everyone in the church knows to get down below the pughs to gain cover while the security people confront the shooter. They actually do drills to make sure everyone responds just like fire drills when we were kids in school. The security people are not all in same location but in different areas so they can see most all the members of the church. He said they began doing this almost 2 years ago and the entire congregation is in approval.

This covers my thought on the whole security thing. Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

Look how many thousands of peoples names got put on that NO FLY List that should not have been on it and they still have not got that fixed yet!!!!

Our thoughts and prayers to those folks in Texas. We don't lock up the loonies any more, just give them pills to self medicate, that's working real well.

Latest report, he did not obtain gun legally. Also, this was his in-laws church, the people that reported him for beating their daughter and grandchild. Also reported he draped an Antifa flag on the pulpit before he started.

You mean finally carrying now that you are legal, right? None of us around here would carry without a permit.

El Guapo & slowsure, thanks for putting together a great match yesterday! Really like the stages that allowed the shooter to decide which firearms to use. The Slug "wildcard" was an interesting twist. See Ya'll next Feb!

0.03 MOA?

It won't be popular, but instead of worrying about keeping guns away from those with severe mental problems issues, I think it's time to consider keeping these folks away from public. What scares me is the opportunity to politicize what constitutes mental problems.

Because that is a photo based on the movie, based on the real people.

Yeah great. Now how about we work on a solution. First step is to identify the root cause. Just labeling it mental health is not going to help either. Nice to see someone blame a person instead of the tool but we really do need a solution.

This was posted on Reddit, "I knew this guy. He went to my high school. One of my closest friends dated him. It has been known for ####ing YEARS that he is insane and dangerous. Multiple instances of abuse, and stalking my friend for years on social media (scared the #### out of her). #### this piece of ####, but also #### the system that ignored all the signs. My entire body went cold when I read his name, but I was not surprised." I have to agree with @gregintenn, it seems we're not doing enough to keep guns out of the hands of crazy people. I'm not sure how it can be done though. At minimum, we need better treatment.

They also mentioned that the guy was dressed in all black "tactical" dress and was wearing a vest. Now, who wears all black on Antifa weekend?

I have attended Andrew Branca's seminar and a couple of other hour long seminars by local attorneys for firearm self-defense. Plus just about every firearm instructional class I have attended this topic is addressed to varying degrees. As a state instructor I try and learn as much as possible about this subject. Branca seems to be held in high regard and is an attorney's attorney. He does not take on private cases as a lead attorney. He is a paid consultant. He has worked with the Sig academy. Spoken at NRA functions. Helped with the founding of IDPA. Massad wrote the introduction to his book, The Law of Self Defense. He appears on numerous forums and shows. That said, a recent podcast of his mentioned several of the products. In brief, CCW Safe, Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network, and USCCA were spoken of favorably. The NRA CarryGuard, not so much as it is a reimbursement program. Trial lawyers require their money up front. Without adequate up-front funding one's defense may suffer significantly.

Not entirely disagreeing, but mental illness is the catch all make us feel better answer. Mental illness was a much larger issue in the past with even less "treatment" available and yet these mass shooting issues didn't happen. Personally I think it's more societal issues merged with the above. Media/internet fame, entitlement mentality, relativism, post truth culture, mixed with a grossly over medicated childhood (specifically boys), and the demasculating of said boys I think all play the major role and are backed by psychological studies. However, admitting that the liberal arts/feminism/prescription drug movement that created much of these issues is a failure, is far less appealing to the masses as mental illness ... that makes it not their fault. That being said or church started implementing security procedures preemptively just for this reason.

Typical scum dem reaction to a tragedy. Take Freedoms away, I'm sorry to say I believe they cheer these acts so they can further their agenda. Whether insanity, radical islam, left wing crazies or whatever reason we can never give up our freedoms for so called security, Franklin said it best. The best way to stop these acts is to be able to stop the threat if one arises. Can we stop all, no, but not being prepared to act is not acceptable. The dem/lib/soc/comm depend on feasting on emotional responses when they happen. Keep a cool head. Again, prayers for those affected & our nation.

Make some tactical kitchen knives, in case you're attacked by Antifa while your're chopping your tomater.

I contacted a professional gunsmith friend of mine about the R51 who I had not talked to about the R51 before. Some years ago he and I were always monkeying around with something, then he gets out of the Army goes to the gunsmith school and moves far away and actually makes a living as a gunsmith. I think I have my final answer: They're terrible. I was the only warranty center for them for about a year They're the worst pistol I think I've ever screwed with, but they are mechanically fascinating.

LOL a chopper is a chopper, the only anti in my kitchen is my aunt Sonya