Marswolf

Hyaloid, that sounds like a reasoned response. As I've said, I both OC and CC. It depends on the situation and when I do OC I try to dress appropriately. My concern with OC is pretty much that I'm afraid it will lead to its being made illegal if enough of the sheeple get frightened by it. I think that's a legitimate thing to consider when you go out in public with a gun. There are a lot more sheeple than packers and they also vote. If OC does get banned, you lose that protection from harassment and arrest for incidental exposure of your handgun. It also might prevent you from OCing in the woods, where it is clearly appropriate. As I've said, this is an interesting topic. One thing we see is a polarization of OCers who think that CCers are wimps, and CCers who think that OCers are cowboys.

Norelco is made by Philips. I've never had to replace a set of blades. The last Norelco lasted about 10 years. I really like the rechargeables. And Norelco shavers are quiet. Some of the competition sounds like a vibratory sander. I've tried shifting back to blade razors at times, and sometimes I'm in places where that makes more sense than packing in an electric gadget. For my beard, the electric razor seems to work as well as a blade. Either way, your skin has to get used to what is shaving it.

This has been an interesting topic even through the vitriol. I've learned something useful from this discussion. I expected some of the OC/CC packers to be as they turned out. A couple of people have surprised me. What I think I am seeing are reasons to concealed carry, and excuses to open carry. Am I off base on this?

I'm trying to get out of this topic. I've pretty much had my say, but the comment about only dressing one way and that limiting carry strikes me as odd. I dress in a lot of different ways from suits to shorts and my choice of handgun and holster depend on what I wear and the situation. Sometimes it is OC on the side, sometimes IWB, sometimes a shoulder holster and sometimes a BUG in a pocket. For summer non-duty use, I'm often in shorts or jeans and a T-shirt or Polo type shirt tucked into my shorts. For those occasions, my P3AT goes into my rear pocket in an appropriate holster. Either buy another holster or buy another shirt. That's not a reasonable excuse for why one "has" to OC.

I only wish that was true. Unfortunately your beliefs and actions based on them are likely to result in both you and me being unable to legally open carry when it would be appropriate. My concern is not criticism but the concrete results of foolishness. Needless OC will ultimately bring about the death of OC.

I think this is really the crux of the matter. Apart from the guys who think it's somehow macho to carry a handgun open (and I think there are unfortunately a pile of those folks), the reason I normally hear for OC is that it is going to somehow get the public used to seeing guns and think of them favorably. I've thought that myself in the past but upon more reasoned consideration have changed my mind. I'm afraid the days of commonplace carry are past in terms of being able to legally protect ourselves, and I now think OC is highly counterproductive. My heart wishes firearm carry would become commonplace again, but my head tells me that isn't ever going to happen. Fervent and sincere wishing won't make it come true. Even in the "Wild West", towns quickly began enforcing no-carry rules. Realistically, the idea of massive citizen self-protection by carrying firearms isn't going to happen. It just isn't. We just need to get over it and do what is best for us to individually protect ourselves. I'm guessing that for every person that sees the public packing openly and thinks well of it, there are 50 people who will see that event as discomforting and threatening. I strongly suspect that purposeful open carry will eventually lead to Tennessee banning open carry. If I'm right, OCing is exactly the wrong thing to do. But my posting here isn't going to make everyone suddenly become rational. I think in a few years, because of the actions we are discussing, Tennessee will ban open carry. The only reason we have a permit to OC in Tennessee is because of a handful of LE guys who didn't like citizen carry and tried to kill it in their community by their own authority. Their arrogance won us open carry and "shall issue" by state rather than local authorities. I'm afraid that the actions of those who insist on open carry will lose that for us and leave us again vulnerable to arrest for inadvertent open carry. That was why the law was changed - so the permitted public could not be harassed and arrested by unfriendly LEOs who decided that you were not carrying with sufficient concealment. I'm afraid those days will return in the not too distant future.

I've tried them all. I buy Norelco.

Actually that is my concern in this. It is not in our best interest to convince the legislature to eliminate open carry by our actions - and I fear that is exactly what will happen if we ignore public perception. I don't think our making a public show of having a protection handgun is going to be viewed favorably by the public. I think they will instead demand that the legislature restrict us to prevent it.

Len, I'm sure you will enjoy the free training....

I didn't mention Glocks.... Wonder why that gun came to your mind?

Here you go Mike: Rivals run afoul in Kingsport wreck; FedEx and UPS drivers sustain minor injuries Published 07/26/2007 By David Grace Kingsport Police are investigating a Thursday morning collision involving FedEx and UPS delivery trucks. Occurring on East Stone Drive near Packing House Road, the wreck is under investigation with charges pending. Both drivers were transported for treatment of minor injuries. Photo by David Grace. Back on topic.... What DaveTN said. This isn't about the law, it's about whether it is in our best interest to OC considering that privilege can be taken away from us by the legislature at any time. Only reason I OC is because my employer wants me to do so, but that policy has changed three times in four years and each time it has been to become more discreet. I suspect that trend will continue as we get further away in time from the US terrorist attacks and will reverse to become more obvious when the next attacks occur. Having armed officials visible was reassuring to the public for a while, but now is more disturbing than reassuring. The only reason I see to OC in an urban environment is because you want people to see that you have a gun. Like my wife, I've come to question the motives of those who insist on doing OC. They tend to be viewed as cowboys until proven innocent. This is a matter of perception rather than reality. Ordinary citizens carrying a gun on their side are perceived as a threat by John Q. Public rather than as defenders. I see the VCDL members in Virginia having OC picnics in city parks. This is just dumb. The purpose is to make a point, not to protect the picnickers or those around them. If they keep it up, the end result is not going to be the public suddenly becoming aware that guns in the hands of the citizens is good to prevent crime. The result will be Virginia eliminating open carry for everyone. We are already seeing banks in our area putting up no-carry signs because of one incident. If you keep pressing the matter at Kroger, you will see signs go up there and at dozens of other stores. That's a prediction. They aren't going to cater to our 3% of gun packers if they think they will lose 4% of their customers to posting stores because they allow us to open carry. It's dollars and cents, and I don't think we are on the winning side in this pissing match.

Let's see...with what gun does that happen a lot?

Oh, well I guess I'll have to stop going there. Come to think of I never go there anyway. :

Maybe Russian Roulette with a pistol?

Yeah, I noticed that. Guess he's over at Glock Talk - which explains a lot.

Oh...you want to talk about Glocks? What scares me is that I increasingly agree with The Rabbi.

They are now being ignored because people want their "entitlements."

I really like Mosin-Nagants. Lots of fun to shoot, and the price is so reasonable for that much fun. It's sort of like the Garand. If you pronounce the name correctly, everyone looks at you like you are an idiot: MO-seen Nah-GON. I gave up on doing that long ago. I'm a shooter, not an educator. Lots of info at http://7.62x54r.net/. And if you don't have a copy of Terence W. Lapin's book The Mosin-Nagant Rifle, you should order one.

Tennessee's Constitution guarantees: "That the citizens of this State have a right to keep and to bear arms for their common defense; but the Legislature shall have power, by law, to regulate the wearing of arms with a view to prevent crime." The Tennessee legislature clearly has the authority under the Constitution to determine when and if we carry arms. Constitutionally, carrying arms is not a right. Maybe it is a right if we rely on a higher authority, but the higher authority does not write Tennessee Code. If enough people get frightened by other citizens carrying handguns, the legislature will modify the state code to accommodate that fear. Insisting on flaunting your "right" to carry may just get that right repealed or restricted.

Hyaloid, I don't disagree with you in principle. If respected community leaders would OC, it might open up the door to more people doing it without concern. But that is not going to happen. Let me ask you a simple question. If you see someone who is dressed like a street gang banger and you see he has a pistol, are you going to assume he has a permit and is legal with it? That's how a lot of soccer moms feel about us wandering through Wal-Mart with a gun on our side. I'm fond of saying that we have to deal with the situation as it is rather than as it should be. Right now, the reality is that OC does frighten a lot of people and if we have enough of that, the legislature will change the policy so we can not freely OC. It's just a matter of how long before they do it. I think that's a step backward and I don't want to see that happen.

Tower, I'll stick by my statement. The BATFE has some people who shouldn't be in their position, but most just want to pay the mortgage. In general, the laws are the problem, not the BATFE personnel, although as mentioned there are some exceptions. Blame the airhead legislators for the bad laws, not the people who enforce them. Reminds me of Vietnam when war protesters blamed the soldiers coming home instead of those who directed the conflict from Washington. BTW, although ATF started the Ruby Ridge situation with their investigation of a local militia group and entrapped Weaver, they didn't shoot anyone at the site that I can recall. Those were US Marshalls and an FBI sniper. Did you know that one of the ATF officers who died at Waco was from our area? They have a plaque in the BATFE office in Bristol in his memory. Don't think I'll say more about him on an open board, but as me in person sometime.

I'll throw in my two cents here. I think we need to be careful about open carry. I do it most of the time, but I'm dressed like someone who should be packing a gun. My wife, who is definitely not anti-gun, thinks that most people carrying guns are doing it from some misplaced redneck macho thing. Don't take that lightly. This is a lady who grew up hunting, was on the high school rifle team and has LE training. If this is her perception, how does Jill, average citizen, feel about seeing someone carrying a gun? Tennessee's original carry permit was a concealed permit. This was changed to just being a carry permit (open carry allowed) because of harassment from a couple of police chiefs/sheriffs who would arrest you if there was even a hint of a gun showing. Businesses don't want customers scaring away other customers. I imagine most companies wouldn't care if you conceal carry but really don't want you flashing a gun in their stores. If open carry gets to be a problem, as they see it, I suspect we will see legislation proposed to restrict our "right" to open carry.

Is it 1963 or 1863?

I have the 1997 Thanksgiving version of the Alice's Restaurant Concert I recorded and put on disk. Back to Kroger. I OC all the time in Kroger around here. Never a discouraging word on my home range.

Rabbi, half the people here weren't born when Alice's Restaurant Massacre was first sung. http://www.arlo.net/resources/lyrics/alices.shtml And friends, somewhere in Washington enshrined in some little folder, is a study in black and white of my fingerprints. And the only reason I'm singing you this song now is cause you may know somebody in a similar situation, or you may be in a similar situation, and if your in a situation like that there's only one thing you can do and that's walk into the shrink wherever you are ,just walk in say "Shrink, You can get anything you want, at Alice's restaurant.". And walk out. You know, if one person, just one person does it they may think he's really sick and they won't take him. And if two people, two people do it, in harmony, they may think they're both f.a.g.g.o.t.s [stupid PC software cop made me spell it out] and they won't take either of them. And three people do it, three, can you imagine, three people walking in singin a bar of Alice's Restaurant and walking out. They may think it's an organization. And can you, can you imagine fifty people a day,I said fifty people a day walking in singin a bar of Alice's Restaurant and walking out. And friends they may thinks it's a movement.