Marswolf

Some of my targets wear body armor. But I try to use a rifle instead. As I said 5.7x28 mm is a specialized tool, but a good one if you need it. I thoroughly enjoyed the handgun. It just doesn't fit what I need. Going on another tangent, you know those little North American 22 pocket pistols? People often buy the 22 mag rather than the 22 lr. With the short barrel, the 22 mag has almost no additional velocity compared to the long rifle version. We need to think in terms of a weapons system rather than just the mechanics of a gun and the potential of a round. As you mentioned, that gives the P90 an advantage over the PS90 using the same round.

Actually Samurai, I think it is very commendable that you are trying to keep the noise down. I live out in the county but very seldom shoot on the property because I know it disturbs the neighbors, even if they don't say anything. It turns out that we can't just do anything we want on our land because there is no county law against it. We all have sort-of a noise statute, but it is enforceable only in civil action. A few months ago I had a discussion with a prosecutor friend of mine who is now a judge. One of my neighbors was disturbing my wife by riding 4-wheelers frequently during the day. Basically, he told me that while there are no county laws, and it would be difficult for a Tennessee county to legislate such a law to prevent them from making all that noise, there is in state code a provision that you have a right to use of your property without continually being distracted. I forget the proper legal term. So, while we may live in the county, we can't just do whatever we please if it repeatedly disturbs the neighbors. It's a gray area and provides us with certain protections to reasonable use of our property without having to endure unreasonable use by other property owners. So the sheriff isn't going to help you, but the courts might if things are bad enough. Fortunately my neighbors understood after a personal visit that I wasn't going to let them continue to unreasonably disturb us so I didn't have to take any legal or other action. Apart from legalities, it's just a matter of courtesy. BTW, in Sullivan county, the setting up of a permanent range is governed under zoning regulations. You can plink occasionally on your property or hunt some, but if you set up a range it has to be on property zoned for business. I have another friend who ran up against that a couple of years ago.

Maybe I should mention that the scuffs on that helmet are actually holes through it. The "weak" civilian ammo does a very good job of penetrating vests and helmets. It has been rumored that the cavity of the round just may have been filled with polymer and increased the penetration. But who am I to say that someone...might have done that. I've fired the P90 too. Fortunately using my favorite uncle's ammunition. I'm not normally a big fan of full autos in that mode but this one was pretty cool.

49 is not a lot of co-sponsors for a House bill. Looks like nothing has been done on it since March 19 when it was assigned to committee. I'll be surprised if there is a big push for this before the next Presidential election. http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c110:H.R.1022:

I had one for a while. Bought it when it still came with a letter saying it was only for LE and military. Actually, it does very well with just the standard street legal rounds. This is what those rounds will do to a Kevlar helmet. It is really an exceptional round, but it didn't fit what I need. I bought the gun at $650. Saw one a few days ago for $950. It's a good round for folks like Secret Service. Normally, it has excellent penetration, including through vests of course, but it tends to tumble and stop in the first target. However in one conversation with a SS guy, he told me that although it normally tumbles, it has been know to pass through four people and lodge in the fifth. I assume that was in a test rather than real life. To me it's a specialized tool. But I do like it.

As I've posted in the past, there is some hostility toward the TFA among gun owners in this area. They see it as an organization that collects dues but that doesn't do much. Whether that is a fair assessment is open to interpretation, but you have to live with that perception. I did a search and it looks like the last time the TFA even considered a state convention was in 2005 and as best I can figure out they didn't do it then. Didn't look like much of a convention was planned either. Maybe the problem is my search technique and something has been happening. I know once before Harris said he was too busy to hold a convention. This sort of thing turns people off. Sounds like TFA has a problem at the top too. I don't doubt the sincerity of Harris or Perry Hamlett but you do have to get over being an advocate of action and become one who actually acts. As Thoreau pointed out, there are nine hundred and ninety-nine patrons of virtue to one virtuous man. The TFA needs leadership that is more than a patron of proposed action. When the Tri-Cities TFA chapter fell through, I thought about the situation a bit and decided it would be much easier to get together a bunch of gun owners as a social club and inject a legislative agenda into it rather than start off with a lobbying group and add the social stuff. I did a bit of ground work but things changed with my job and I didn't have time to pursue it. This is one reason I'm interested in seeing a formal TGO group that can organize social chapters. It sounds a lot better to politicians to say you have 200 gun owners that meet every month rather than that you have 16 people who meet when the mood strikes to talk about possible legislative action.

I'm a little far away, but wish I could come by and see your stuff, Frank. You ever do a Knoxville or Tri-Cities show? I'm really not big on gun shows. I find prices can normally be found cheaper elsewhere and I'd rather support local stores. Mostly, when I go it's to see new stuff and talk to people.

Well, the head of any group needs to be a worker, hopefully with some organizational skills. Unfortunately it sounds like the Nashville TFA group is lacking in that leadership. Lots of mistakes being made already. This month's meeting sounds like a disaster and is being followed up with another disaster next month in not even having a meeting. Things don't look good. We had a guy in our area try to organize a TFA chapter several years ago. He tried, but made a number of mistakes. Hyaloid sounds interested in giving it a try, but has other pressing matters right now. I'd be glad to help, but can't take the lead. Besides, I think we would do better to have a TGO chapter and let the TFA meet at the same time. Any more thought about making TGO an official organization?

Sorry I couldn't make it. It sounds like things have gotten off to a less than stellar start. No draw, changing the meeting dates, lots of little things to keep people from coming back. You start dropping months and people will forget to come. I noticed on the TFA board that a couple of people though the meeting would be on the 21st. If memberships are being given away, there definitely needs to be a meeting soon after and I hope someone is collecting contact info and will let the new members know about the next meeting. And I'd strongly recommend moving the meeting to a restaurant to make it a family event. I know I'm being a know-it-all but I've organized a bunch of groups. What works is having the meeting every month on the same day and time regardless of anything less than getting nuked. Never, ever change the meeting date or time or cancel one. You have to have a program from people outside of the group. It needs to be entertaining as well as serious business. Eating first is a big draw for family attendance. If that isn't possible (it's always possible) make sure there are some snacks and drinks. See if you can find some business to donate a $10 gift certificate or something to give away at each meeting. Do a newsletter to be sent out a few days before the next meeting. Stress that non-members are very welcome. They tend to become members after a short time if it's a good group. Lots of other things for publicity, but I've said enough.

TBI

I just love statistics wars. Read a book in college called How To Lie With Statistics. As well as all the technical stuff, it pays to talk to people who use different handguns and different calibers. Word of mouth pretty much killed the 10mm although I know there are all those folks out there who won't have anything else. The 40 S&W has done well in that regard and the 357 SIG is getting good marks. I've always liked the 9mm but a time came when for some uses I decided I needed something more modern for urban use. I feel the same way for field use now. It's time for something not just newer, but actually better. And as far as only needing 6-8 rounds in a fight...I've been know to carry 66 rounds of 40 S&W in the handgun and on my belt and a bunch more than that of 9mm. But my fights may not be the same as yours.

I think Hancock County still uses 38spl.

Counties in Tennessee are pretty limited in the kind of restrictions they can put on stuff like shooting unless the legislature passes a private act. My guess is that you are OK if out of any corporate limits and don't do it often enough to really annoy others. But I'd make a quick call to the county mayor's office.

I'll admit to being a techie, but never considered myself cool.

I'm not sure I see a performance disadvantage in the 357 SIG rather than 9mm. In my world there really isn't anything that over-penetrates or is too accurate at distance. The chief disadvantage I see of the 357 SIG is ready availability of the 9mm about anywhere in the world.

Forgot to mention that http://personalsecurityzone.com/cgi-win/order/prodlist.exe/PSZ/?Template=ProdDetail.htm&ProductID=15840 has the M2 lights cheaper than Amazon if you just insist on getting one.

My interest in 357 SIG is to get two guns down to one. I use a 40 S&W for street use and 9mm for field use out to 100 yards or a bit more. Standard ammunition will generally work for what I need. The 357 SIG gives better penetration at urban distances than the 40 S&W and a flatter trajectory than the 9mm at distance. If I soup it up a bit, it gets even better. But I see your point Rabbi. For a lot of people a higher pressure round is all they need.

After going through a bunch of carry handguns, including a Glock and SIG (and having carried a Beretta 92 for many years), I settled on the USP and haven't been sorry. I could recommend the Beretta and SIG but to me the winner is the USP. But I priced P2000s yesterday at a couple of places. I'd like to try a 357 SIG for a while and they don't make them in full size USPs. I've been considering something in a SIG, but the action on the P2000 is very good.

We also have the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation. http://www.tbi.state.tn.us/divisions/organization1.htm

First, congratulations on getting the USP. The flippant answer (and the correct one in my opinion) to the question of what light goes on the rail is "none." The light goes in your off hand. :D Insight Technology makes the M2 UTL Light. There are also adapters if you already have a Glock light and want it use on the USP. I find that lights on guns cause problems in drawing and holstering as well as being a convenient aim point for the bad guys and it prevents sweeping the area for other BGs while you hold aim on one of them. I think that lights for pistol use belong off of the gun. Making a wild guess, I'd say half the people here will agree with me and half will think I'm nuts.

How serious are you about this? There is a guy in Blountville that is probably the best in the area. He doesn't go for all this dippy bowing crap and all that most schools do. I like that a lot. Some years ago I heard about him and heard that he claimed to do Special Forces training sessions. Not believing it, I made a couple of phone calls and found out that it was true. He is very good. I have never trained with him, but have great respect for his ability and philosophy of teaching. I do have to mention that along the line he went pretty deep into his religion. Normally, that is not a plus in my book but in his case I'll make an exception. Here are a couple of links. I have no idea what the Myspace thingy is about, since David Collins is a lot older than 35, but it's an interesting read. http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=131696363 The other link is about his religion, but also gives some good information about his martial arts background. http://www.pastornet.net.au/response/articles/125.htm I ran into him about a month ago at a local produce stand. He is a nice guy, very competent and I'd recommend him.

I'd love to do both courses mostly to do a critique. (But not enough to pay for them. ) I keep hearing good things about how these are real-world classes rather than Rambozo stuff. This is probably what 95% of defensive shooters need.

OK, the June shoot is over. Wish I could have been there. Talked to Mike at Top Notch today and he said he wish he could have come down to see the range. Maybe next time for both of us. Anyway, I'm demoting this topic to a non-sticky but it will stay open for posting about the June event.

Here's some ammo for it:

I have a S&W .38 Safety Hammerless 4th Model that came in an Army holster. I think it was used by an uncle in WWI. Here's a photo of the Perfected.