Six &Twenty
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Posts posted by Six &Twenty
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OK!!
The Browning "Light 12" spring arrived. This is round in section (the original Rem spring was square) and perhaps 5 INCHES longer when compared to the old Rem spring. I was concerned that it would bottom out so I chucked it on leaving the fore-end wood off so I could see what we've got. Pushing the barrel all the way back with the bolt to the rear limit, there was still just a little 'light' remaining between coils. It also required a LOT more pressure to get the action compressed fully.
This is good!
Set for HEAVY, 3 3/4 Dram 1 1/4 oz #4 loads cycle (and seemed amazingly mild). Better yet, the 3 Dram 1 1/8 oz #8 'lights' did NOT cycle!! Changed the friction rings for LIGHT loads and the #8s cycled as designed! Recoil remained quite mild as 12 gauge guns go.
I am totally thrilled with this 80 year old shotgun, and anyone who tells you that they kick the #### out of you, probably has not addressed the weakened recoil springs in these old guns. The mass of the recoiling barrel and the tension of the spring really take the bite out of the total recoil energy. Set correctly, they are a real pleasure to shoot!-
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Information I've managed to sort through indicates that the spring in the Browning and Remington should be identical... you can get NEW Browning springs. So... I'll let you know if we're being lied to. Made sure to order the Browning 'light' version, which is for 2 3/4 inch chambers and not the 3 inch mag A-5.
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Range Update:
Took the Rem to Florida for a couple of rounds of trap & skeet. Three shooters on the gun (me, daughter & son) Federal Field & Target 1 1/8 oz #8s (3 Dram equiv) This worked out to around 150 rounds through the gun. Not one problem all afternoon! (other than the front bead getting shot off... could not find it!) Still mildly concerned that the recoil setup is for high-power and the gun cycles the light stuff, but it is what it is.
New friction ring arrived while I was in FL and I installed this part today... no change. Wiped off all the oil from the magazine tube to see if this would slow her down a bit, nope! She still shucks low-brass perfectly when set for high and slams HARD with high-power rounds.
Searching for a NEW recoil spring. If anyone finds one please let me know. -
Lot's of 'bits' involved here... I did not tear down the trigger group, I was able to clean it up without disassembly. Very glad I went after the rest of it, it had not been opened up in a long, LONG time!!
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12 hours ago, xtriggerman said:
When I ever worked on one, I would just use a couple drops or so of a good gun oil since its viscosity doesn't change with extreme temps. Just enough to barely smug the tube. Another thing I always looked for was some times the fiber buffer would be missing from the back of the receiver so it was a bear to get a new one peened in on the little rivet that's supposed to keep it in place. Over time, the pounding bolt would beat the snot out of them and then they would end up taking recoil metal to metal. Hope fully, your is still in place.
Thanks! I was relieved to find the fiber buffer still in place and it seems to be in pretty good shape, considering it's age.
I was NOT looking forward to replacing that particular item! The process looks like a total pain in the posterior! -
12 hours ago, xtriggerman said:
There were early brass friction rings that did not have a beveled lip that mated with the steel "inward" bevel of the steel ring. The best resistance of the barrel is with the beveled brass edge into the barrel ring and the opposite beveled edge into a steel ring's matching inward bevel. The best way to gauge if its giving correct resistance ( IMO) is by the force of the spent shell leaving the gun. If your in the 6-8 foot range standing, that's good. If its chucking them out past 10-12 feet with stiff field loads, I'd rough the tube up lightly a tad with 220 grit shoe shine way with a strip. Those tubes can get glazed to where they just cant give the resistance any more.
That makes perfect sense. The magazine tube on this gun is smooth as glass and putting just a bit of 'tooth' on it would make a big difference. Instructions I have found on lubrication state not to run the friction system either 'dry' or 'over lubed'. The suggested process is to wipe the tube with 30 weight engine oil, and then wipe the tube with a clean cloth, leaving a very light oil film. I will report back when the new friction ring arrives.
Thanks for the suggestion!-
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Looks like option #2 is a non starter. I took some measurements and verified these by FULLY compressing the recoil spring on the action... there is next to NO space between coils when she's at full rearward travel. Spacers are not a good idea.
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2 hours ago, 1gewehr said:
Have you read up on how to use the friction rings to adjust to your load? If not, do that first.
I can't think of how many folks do not realize that the Remington 11, Browning A5, and Savage 720 shotguns all need to have friction rings set correctly.
When someone complains about stiff recoil, or short cycling, it's almost always a bad set-up of the friction rings.
When Winchester refused to pay John Browning what he wanted for his shotgun design, he sold it to Remington, Savage, and FN. Originally, most parts for all three were interchangeable. As time went on, each manufacturer made changes that made their parts incompatible with the others.
I have a set of Remington 11s in 12, 16, and 20ga that we're my grandfather's. They are pretty much the only shotguns I shoot any more.
I have studied up on setting the friction rings, and I have them correctly set for heavy loads. This was a pretty good diagram I located on-line.
Still puzzled on the 'suggestion' for running with NO brake with the Cutts Compensator... not on THIS gun!-
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51 minutes ago, Six &Twenty said:
Yep... Out of stock... BUT!!! They do have new factory friction rings, which might help tame the beast!!
https://www.gunpartscorp.com/products/1408630A
https://www.gunpartscorp.com/products/1408650AJust ordered a new friction ring. I'll report on results!
I am still noodling making a spacer from PVC pipe... this could stiffen things up and also add just a little 'give' to the entire system. Naturally I'd need to keep a careful eye on it's condition as it will be subject to wear. There is a lot of space between coils in the spring when fully compressed by the action, therefore I think this may work without pulling all of the 'spring', out of the spring. I'd start 'long' and cut the spacer back until full power loads cycle. Then reset the system for low-power and see where we're at.
BTW, this gun has a Cutts Commentator, and according to info I have found, she should not need the brake at all! Interesting... -
9 minutes ago, DaveTN said:
Numrich has both a new reproduction and a used factory original spring.
https://www.gunpartscorp.com/gun-manufacturer/remington/shotguns-rem/11-2
Yep... Out of stock... BUT!!! They do have new factory friction rings, which might help tame the beast!!
https://www.gunpartscorp.com/products/1408630A
https://www.gunpartscorp.com/products/1408650A -
Maybe THREE questions... As the Model 11 is a essentially Browning A-5 'clone' manufactured in the good ol' USA, are Browning A-5 recoil springs compatible?
Browning, you can buy better, but you can't pay more... -
I just picked up a Model 11 in very good condition for it's advanced years. Stripped her down and cleaned all internals, which looked like no one had attended to them since she rolled off the line in 1936! She's squeaky clean and lubricated now.
The gun fires fine, however she is still cycling with low-power target stuff (2 1/4 Dram - 1 oz.) with the recoil system set for high-power 12 gauge fodder. Recoil on the high power stuff is pretty stiff and the action return spring 'sings' in the stock after a shot. These symptoms lead me to believe I need to replace the recoil spring, but I am having a hard time locating a 'new production' replacement.
I have two questions for knowledgeable folks on the Model 11:
1) What is the uncompressed length on the 'factory' recoil spring? (since all I can locate are used parts, this would allow me to determine if the spring has 'collapsed' or if it's still useable.
2) Has anyone played around with manufacturing 'spacers' to provide more tension on a 'weakened' older spring? This is not an ideal solution, I know, but I cannot find new stock.
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So, now the narrative has evolved, and it is now a 'fact' parroted by the MSM that the NRA 'buys' politicians? It is also a 'fact' that the NRA should be considered a terrorist organization?
Please, grow the hell up!
Some easily verifiable numbers one should be aware of prior to proving you are ill-informed. (Links follow)
The NRA ranks 491th of 19,110 organizations in terms of political contributions to candidates. In 2016 the NRA contributed only $1,085,200 to individual campaigns.
The top contributing organization in 2016 was Fahr LLC, which contributed $90,585,670, ALL of this sum proffered to Democratic candidates.
The NRA is politically 'effective' not by purchasing political hacks, but rather because it represents and motivates it's membership and like-minded individuals to VOTE, The NRA does invest heavily in 'outside spending' in the form of advertising, advocacy and other activities. In 2016, $54,398,558 was invested. This places the NRA ninth on the list of organizations investing in political 'outside spending'.
The NRA ILA invested $33,341,336 defending the Second Amendment in the 2016 election cycle, placing it at 11th on the list. Who was first? Priorities USA Action, a liberal organ that spent $133,407,972. Of this sum $126,952,679 was spent on opposition to Republican candidates and only 5% ($6,455,293) was spent in support of Democratic candidates.
So the question remains, who is 'bought and paid for' in Washington??
All of the numbers stated in this post and a mass of other data is available on-line at OpenSecrets.Org
Knowledge is your friend, don't be a drone!
The TOP organizations historically are documented HERE:
https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/The NRA is conspicuous by its absence.
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Good observations by all. I appreciate the measured response.
My 'concern' is that in spite of the obvious (to us) protections of The Second, a substantial portion of the Nation is either vehemently opposed to the basic notion of an armed populous, or incredibly misinformed. This is fertile ground for 'ambulance chasers' and anyone remotely involved in a criminal case is up for grabs in a civil case. You can get an attorney to take anything as a case, even when they know they are tilting at windmills and will logically lose the action... makes me totally crazy. I am concerned generally about the prevailing 'climate' and how we may best protect ourselves as lawful gun-owners.
Understand, I do not like ANY of this. Perhaps, as the Left claims, I'm just paranoid. However any registration 'list' either of individuals 'licensed' to purchase, or records on gun ownership set the hair on my neck into spasms. I remain unconvinced that the NICS data, that is by law required to be 'dumped' if the check is successfully passed, is not currently living in a convenient and readily accessible database at NSA. -
58 minutes ago, Oh Shoot said:
Federally, the burden of proof is that you "know or have reasonable cause to believe" the sale is such.
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In this political climate, is this 'position' wise? As a person not particularly interested in making a political point, I'd drop a dime on my local dealer and all the potential legal 'problems' miraculously disappear. It is exceptionally expensive to field a legal defense, even if you are vindicated.
Please do not misunderstand my intent with this piece. I am simply suggesting that, at this time, in this nation, covering your ass may be prudent! And, your local FFL dealer could use the 40 bucks, that your 'customer' will pay. Seems a win - win for all concerned. -
Before proceeding with this piece, I first want to make one thing perfectly clear:
By definition, criminals do NOT obey laws. Thus, any new regulations being pushed to ‘stop gun violence’ will ultimately be proven ineffective. The net result is that the ‘failure’ of these proposals to impact the problem only intensifies agitation for even more draconian measures.
That being clearly stated and understood by my audience, I do have a ‘suggestion’. To address ‘private sales’ – the notorious ‘gun-show loophole’. -
Looks to me like any 'pistol' (as opposed to revolver) could be swept up, as there is nothing to 'prevent' accepting a 'large capacity ammunition feeding device'. This is a pretty stupid piece of legislation, but it 'clarifies' the agenda quite nicely for anyone sitting the fence!
Of particular interest, there are NO exemptions for any handguns by manufacturer or model contained in the appendix... NONE! -
Well, it's nice when folks admit their agenda and stop pretending...
Required Reading:
https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/5087/text
Co-Sponsors:Steve Cohen - TN 9th District
James Cooper - TN 5th District-
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“A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.” (1)
The Second Amendment to the United States Constitution is stridently debated in this Nation. There are two divergent camps, each trying to fit a camel through the eye of a needle, with arguments that basically break down to correctly diagramming a sentence, and who sits The Court.
Full Story HERE: -
Range Notes / Observations
So, this was a much needed distraction, while desperately awaiting payment from a customer who owes us close to $17K and is ‘several’ weeks late... who said running your own shop is ‘fun’?
I had worked up a few 7.62X51 (.308 Winchester) loads and the weather was cooperative, so I took all the ‘gear’ out and burned up 25 rounds in the back forty. This is a ‘new’ caliber to me and I was starting from zero. I had purchased a batch of German (NATO) ‘surplus’ and had run enough of it through the rifle to get comfortable with it. I did not keep any records on this stuff, but generally I was not terribly impressed with the accuracy potential of the gun. It is essentially a ‘battle rifle’ and the requirement to function reliably when full of mud or sand or God knows what else is a lot more critical than absolute precision. The rudimentary sights and my aging eyes do nothing to improve the situation. But it is a lot of fun to shoot.
Anyway, I had a supply of once-fired brass on hand and had something to start with. The bottom line on this first experiment is I can load better ‘stuff’ than NATO, which is not surprising.
The NATO rounds are pretty mild, pushing a 147 gr FMJ at an average of 2472 feet per second (“fps”) with a muzzle energy of 1995.189 foot pounds. The velocity spread was 55 fps and the standard deviation was 22.
My hand-loads were built up with a 155 gr hollow point boat tail (“HPBT”) 8 grs heavier than the NATO bullet. The max powder weight I could fit in the case was 46 grs of Hodgdon BL-C(2) without compressing the powder. This load had an average velocity of 2639 fps, extreme spread of only 37 fps and a standard deviation of 13. Muzzle energy is calculated as 2396.742 foot pounds.
Starting load was 43 grs working up in 1 gr increments. There were no indications of excessive pressure with any of the loadings. There were no failures to cycle the action. Ended up with the gas port on #6 for the 46 gr load. This may have been a bit much, cases landed 6 to 10 feet out and I could have opened the port a bit.
It is very interesting to note that the published Hodgdon data shows much higher velocity potential, the start load of 45 grs supposedly delivering 2658 fps and a max charge of 48 grs (which would NEVER fit in these German cases) at 2867 fps. This data was produced with Winchester brass, that apparently has a greater internal volume than the NATO stuff I’m working with, and was fired from a longer 24” barrel, I am assuming from a bolt action.
Is this velocity 'drop' typical in a 'service rifle'?Not a bad session, and I guess I feel a little better... now to write up that ‘past due’ letter...
The Data:
Hodgdon Reference Data BL-C(2) :
Winchester Brass – Fed. 210M Primer – 155 gr Sierra HPBT - 24” BBL (bolt?)
Start – 45 gr 2658 fps Max – 48 gr 2867 fps
7.62X51 Range Session 3/17/2017
71 degrees - 29.86 pressure - 64% humidity
NATO German MAN16 - 147 gr FMJ Spitzer
High 2510
Low 2455
Ave 2472
Spread 55
S.D. 22
Ave F.P. 1995.189
Reload #1
Once Fired MEN16 Brass – Winchester WLR Primer – 155 gr Hornady HPBT – 19” BBL FAL (gas port @ ~12 inches)
43 gr. Hodgdon BL-C(2)
High 2446
Low 2411
Ave 2424
Spread 35
S.D. 19
Ave F.P. 2022.165
Reload #2
Once Fired MEN16 Brass – Winchester WLR Primer – 155 gr Hornady HPBT – 19” BBL
44 gr. Hodgdon BL-C(2)
High 2525
Low 2478
Ave 2496
Spread 47
S.D. 18
Ave F.P. 2144.771
Reload #3
Once Fired MEN16 Brass – Winchester WLR Primer – 155 gr Hornady HPBT – 19” BBL
45 gr. Hodgdon BL-C(2)
High 2564
Low 2530
Ave 2543
Spread 34
S.D. 14
Ave F.P. 2225.903
Reload #4
Once Fired MEN16 Brass – Winchester WLR Primer – 155 gr Hornady HPBT – 19” BBL
46 gr. Hodgdon BL-C(2) (compressed?)
High 2661
Low 2624
Ave 2639
Spread 37
S.D. 13
Ave F.P. 2396.742
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I stumbled across this group while seeking advice, and I have indeed received some guidance.
As a 'transplant' to rural TN from roots in the Pennsylvanian mountains, and too many wasted years in Ohio, I now feel that I should have been a Tennessean from birth.
I appreciate being added, and I will attempt to not be too much 'trouble'. I publish 'Notes' when motivated or distressed on my FaceBook account. I encourage folks to check in when bored.
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Sunfish,
REALLY appreciate the heads up on primer selection! I had not even considered this little 'wrinkle' in the process when loading for a semi-auto. Ashamed to admit that all of the load data I have been looking at has been .308, and did not research 7.62 specifically... again, you know what happens when you ASSUME! I will order up a batch, seems like a VERY good idea! I seem to have heavy bullet / neck tension without the crimp, (maybe due in part to the thicker cases?) so I can probably skip this without causing any problems. I'm using a Lee Factory Crimp collet die. Agree that the hard crimp is just one more source for increased pressures and adds another variable to the problem. Thinking I'll mess with this until I get something usable with NO pressure indications, and then add a little crimp and see if pressure indicators jump. I am set up with a chronograph so I can track velocity... pressure is black-art! -
Seated 5ea 45 gr and 5ea 46 gr, and then started going a bit sideways - thinking about the situation. Both charges seemed to accept the bullet without odd or noticeable 'resistance' but I just do not like how this is working out...
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