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1 hour ago, Grunt67 said:

Mac, I think we can all agree the "right" to protest is Constitutional. However, just because you have the right to do something, does not necessarily mean you are required to do it or is it a good idea.

If you look back to the aftermath of the Fla. shootings, the media were doing the usual interviews with survivors & witnesses, how many they actually interviewed & the ones they chose to broadcast may not be the same. The media is left/anti gun biased as we know. Seems the media may have manipulated the situation, and it took a life of it's own.

This may sound a bit like a black helicopter overhead, but how many kids walked out prior to the interviews?

JMHO, food for thought.......

Careful, part of your thinking could easily be used against us....just saying

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You know, I guess I'm of the opinion that we're better as a society when more of us take the liberty to exercise our rights - whether the first or second - and hopefully not often requiring most of the rest. I'm all for states exercising the tenth as much as possible.

Our system of government is an adversarial one - from the two party system basically enshrined in our founding documents - to our judicial system with opposing sides. As was put to me well by a former Solicitor General, "for democracy to prevail, both sides require  vigorous, competent representation." 

We're better off in the long term when both sides have competent representation.

Yes, we as gun owners will have to do a better job of making our case. And yes, we will likely need to work in good faith when it comes to finding solutions to mass violence.

But, I'm convinced we're going to either find ourselves working in good faith, making a case for gun ownership and maybe actually bringing some underrepresented groups into the fold - or we're going to watch while our legislators give in.

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My experience with the local school my kids go to is similar to @MacGyver.  I take my kids to school periodically and talk with the teachers when I'm there. My wife volunteers at the school almost weekly and has become friends with several of the teachers. 

We don't see any of this liberal indoctrination that so many complain about. I've generally chalked that up to living in hillbilly east TN instead of the "big city", but its good to hear that maybe it's not as wide spread as presented. In my experience, the teachers are working too hard  trying to teach the 3 R's with minimal resources to have time to promote an "agenda".

There was a very liberal teacher in the adjacent middle school who made some controversial comments a few years ago. He also happened to be a high school classmate of my wife. I don't recall the details at the moment, but they got rid of him pretty quickly. 

Perhaps pushing "the agenda" gets greater as the kids get older, but I'm not opposed to that in principle. It's good for their beliefs and opinions to get challenged occasionally. It gives good motivation to learn more about a topic and strengthen one's position or change your mind if appropriate. Same as with muscles, if you don't work them hard, they won't get strong.  I feel like I have a good enough relationship with my kids that they'll come to me with questions. We can work together to learn the facts and establish a good foundation of knowledge. We already do that to some extent with some of the ridiculous things they hear from other kids at school. 

Edited by peejman
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4 hours ago, Omega said:

  Imagine how schools would react if the kids wanted to protest say, planned parenthood, or the NFA?

Very fair point. On the flip side, how much different would this thread look if kids nationwide were walking out to support gun rights? Would anyone here be saying the kids deserved to be punished for missing class?

 

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22 minutes ago, peejman said:

We don't see any of this liberal indoctrination that so many complain about. I've generally chalked that up to living in hillbilly east TN instead of the "big city", but its good to hear that maybe it's not as wide spread as presented. In my experience, the teachers are working too hard  trying to teach the 3 R's with minimal resources to have time to promote an "agenda".

I don't know if there is a stated, organized agenda so much as teachers influence the students on a daily basis.  I don't have kids (thankfully) but I do have an example of what I am talking about:

My oldest nephew is now in his early 20s.  At one time, early in his time at elementary school, he began to resist or even refuse to eat meat.  When questioned as to why he had suddenly made such a decision, he stated that his teacher (a vegetarian) had told his class that eating meat is wrong and that they (the students) shouldn't do it.  He later returned to the carnivorous fold but for some time he was a borderline vegetarian - not because he had decided on his own that he wanted to be for any real, personal reasons but just because one teacher had told him that eating meat was wrong.  When kids are sent to school and told to learn from their teachers and those teachers are placed in positions of authority I believe that it doesn't require a formal, organized 'agenda' to influence the students with the teachers OPINIONS.  It only takes a comment here and there regarding things which those teachers have no business, as authority figures and leaders of the classroom, discussing with the students - at least not in such a manner.

Edited by JAB
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1 hour ago, Raoul said:

Careful, part of your thinking could easily be used against us....just saying

Anything you say can always be used against you, if they so desire. The loyal opposition continually twists words, phrases, to fit their agenda.

Point was/is, you have the right to do many things that it's not always a good idea to do, or a better time, etc.

Personally, I do not believe the walk outs would have occurred without a nudge form the media.

That's my opinion & I'm sticking to it.

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18 minutes ago, Erik88 said:

Very fair point. On the flip side, how much different would this thread look if kids nationwide were walking out to support gun rights? Would anyone here be saying the kids deserved to be punished for missing class?

 

Regardless of the reaction here I don't believe such a walkout would happen.  At the first sign there might be a protest that was pro gun it would likely be handled as a 'threat' and the school would be put on lockdown, the students organizing the walkout would be treated as if they had threatened to shoot up the school and the media would present them as being either mentally unbalanced or naive and (ironically) too young to truly understand the issue and suffering from the influence of pro-gun adults who are pro gun (and, therefore, uninterested in the safety of the chiiiilllllldddddreeeeennnnn.)  That is the real problem - even in the absence of a concerted 'agenda' the likelihood of uneven and unequal treatment of the two sides of the issue by both the media and school officials forms an agenda all its own.

Edited by JAB
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I guess my biggest issue with this whole school protest thing is not that they are exercising their 1st A right, it is that fact that they are using one of the rights in the "bill of rights" to try and do away with one of the rights, in our bill of rights...:confused:

Lets use our 1st amendment rights to get rid of the 2nd amendment right..:doh:

Kinda silly when you think about it that way..:biglol:

 

 

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I know a student who made a shirt that expressed both her solidarity with the victims and her support for the second amendment. She's a brave kid.

Even within the protest it would seem there are diverse opinions. I know a few kids who really had to think about why stuff like the second amendment matters.

If you're putting them in a school, you're automatically putting them under the influence of multiple people with authority - and generally telling them to respect that authority. 

If you only want your kid to hear things you agree with, you really only have one choice - home school and quarantine. Even the private parochial schools are likely to upset you sooner or later.  We made a choice to put our kids in public school for now - and we regularly get to have conversations about what they're learning/being exposed to/dealing with. For us, the pros outweigh the cons - but that's a personal choice. 

 

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18 hours ago, Chucktshoes said:

By the nature of how they are organized, schools are an arm of the government and bound by the same rules. Your employer doesn’t have to play by those rules because it is a private entity. 

My employer is the state government. They would not allow me to protest while at work, nor should they. Same for school students.

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Well the reason I asked the question I did  was what could possibly be gained by eiher side by telling a 1st grader he/she had to walk out and tell them why? I have little doubt they would comprehend any part of the reason why and I don't know how it could be explained to them in such a way they could understand the reason to begin with. In all honesty I don't see anything is going to be accomplished on either side for any kids below at least the 5th grade up and that may still be to young.................JMHO

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3 hours ago, Erik88 said:

Very fair point. On the flip side, how much different would this thread look if kids nationwide were walking out to support gun rights? Would anyone here be saying the kids deserved to be punished for missing class?

 

Personally, I have an issue with students, at all levels walking out of class for ANYTHING, and I would only support them protesting things that happen in their school, or district, like sucky lunches, bad teachers, dress code etc.  They are there to learn, not protest, that should be left to parents.  

And there were a few stories of pro-gun students treated differently than their fellow anti-gun brethren. 

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/378654-minnesota-student-with-pro-gun-sign-escorted-off-campus-during

 

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It is ridiculous to allow students to do anything like a walkout without consequences. It teaches the wrong things. If the reason for the walkout is worth the punishment then go for it. Learn how it is going to be in real life once you leave the school. Walking out of work for a protest will have consequences. It may be points towards attendance, suspension, or even termination. This are the real effects your decision to leave may have. Why would we not teach that to kids now?  

No matter the reason for the walkout it should have the same effect as a real life job would. 

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47 minutes ago, Raoul said:

So when do these children of whom all y'all are speaking reach a point in their development when they are entitled to their own opinions?

Well now, that is the question now isn't it?  We, as it currently stands use 18 for many things, legally, but 21 for others, and of course we have the legal opportunity to divorce our parents for cause.  I'm ok with either, as long as they use ONE standard.

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17 hours ago, JAB said:

I don't know if there is a stated, organized agenda so much as teachers influence the students on a daily basis.  I don't have kids (thankfully) but I do have an example of what I am talking about:

My oldest nephew is now in his early 20s.  At one time, early in his time at elementary school, he began to resist or even refuse to eat meat.  When questioned as to why he had suddenly made such a decision, he stated that his teacher (a vegetarian) had told his class that eating meat is wrong and that they (the students) shouldn't do it.  He later returned to the carnivorous fold but for some time he was a borderline vegetarian - not because he had decided on his own that he wanted to be for any real, personal reasons but just because one teacher had told him that eating meat was wrong.  When kids are sent to school and told to learn from their teachers and those teachers are placed in positions of authority I believe that it doesn't require a formal, organized 'agenda' to influence the students with the teachers OPINIONS.  It only takes a comment here and there regarding things which those teachers have no business, as authority figures and leaders of the classroom, discussing with the students - at least not in such a manner.

I would consider your nephew's experience a perfect example of my point. His opinion of eating meat was challenged.  It took some time and influence, but he determined that not only did he not agree with the teacher, he didn't have to agree with the teacher, and he's stronger for it. They can agree to disagree. That's an excellent learning experience for later in life. 

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11 hours ago, Omega said:

Well now, that is the question now isn't it?  We, as it currently stands use 18 for many things, legally, but 21 for others, and of course we have the legal opportunity to divorce our parents for cause.  I'm ok with either, as long as they use ONE standard.

If you're not responsible/trustworthy/mature  enough to drink or own a firearm until you're 21, then perhaps you're not responsible/trustworthy/mature  enough to vote or die for your country either. 

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When I enlisted at 18, we could drink beer on and off post with a military ID (until about 85' I think).  I was issued an M16, and was soon after made an M60 Gunner.  At 20, I was in charge of the entire Arms room, with unaccompanied access.  I had a memo from my Commander allowing me to transport my M16 in my POV(only had a couple of CUCV (Blazers), to and from the range when we shot matches.  A month after turning 21, I was trudging the jungles of Honduras, Panama, and other spots I can't mention.  I must say, I did some stupid things between 18 and 21, but not enough to be a risk to me or others.  I don't believe I was an exception, but also not the rule, just average.  If I was affected, I would fight for my rights and would let these polititions, many of whom haven't served, know what was what.  But now I am 53, and can support the measure only if everything is changed to 21, not just guns, otherwise, they can go pound sand.  Since I know they won't do that, that puts me squarely in the opposition of the measure.

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7 hours ago, bud said:

+1

Maybe some of you old guys here remember how smart you were when you were 18, but go back and ask your parents :)

Most 18 year olds are bone heads not to be trusted to unfettered access to their own rifle with 30 round mags. Maybe it worked out for some of you that you enlisted at 18, but 18 year olds don't have the foresight to make that kind of decision either- or to vote on things that effect those of us with families and actual assets at stake. 

I say 21 to vote, enlist, smoke, drink, buy a gun. 

There has to be some point at which people are recognized as 'adults'.  The age of 18 has been the standard in our country for a while for most things.  Enlist?  Heck, a guy can be drafted at the age of 18 (although it may not actually happen in our lifetimes.)  I take kind of an opposite view from you - I say 18 is the age that a person is legally an adult in this country and, as that person has all of the legal responsibilities of an adult (including being charged as an adult for an alleged crime) that person should have all of the rights of an adult - including the right to purchase not only long guns but hand guns, as well (plus alcohol, tobacco, etc.)

At the age of 18, while taking a year off between high school and college, I was the department manager for the dairy department at the grocery store where I had worked during high school.  Not an assistant, not a night manager but the head department manager.  When I got ready to go back to college and could no longer work as many hours I was made front end manager - meaning I was in charge of the entire store when the manager or assistant manager weren't there which, because of my schedule, was pretty much all of the time that I was there.  I was responsible for all of the money in the place.  I was responsible for thousands of dollars in the night deposit, for running reports at the end of the week to balance the books, so to speak and for supervising employees, some of whom were three times my age at the time.

As far as firearms, I had two shotguns that were mine as well as a lever action 30/30 which belonged to my father and to which I had 'unfettered access' which hung on the wall in a gun rack in my room, over my bed, by the time I was 16.  I never shot up a school.

Sure, there are some 18 years olds who are immature.  There are some 21 year olds who are immature.  Heck, I have known some 35 year olds who were pretty immature.  So where is the line drawn?  There are also 18 year olds who are plenty mature and who, as they are expected to act like adults when it comes to obeying laws, etc. should also be afforded the rights and liberty that all adults in this country are meant to enjoy.

Edited by JAB
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Empire is hard.  

I’d love it if as families, communities, and as society we could turn out 17.5 year olds that we have full confidence will go on to be healthy, well adjusted, productive members of society.  

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On 3/21/2018 at 8:48 AM, Raoul said:

Well said Mac. As the husband of a teacher I find most of the comments here emblematic of folks taking a position without having the facts.

What with the SOL requirements, the crowded classrooms, and the way teachers are micromanaged by everyone from the US Dept of Ed, to the TN Dept of Ed, and so on, most of the crap I'm hearing spouted is not based in fact.

Now let the hating begin

I have not seen liberal views from individual teachers. What I've seen is mixed in the curriculum they are required to teach. Global warming, homosexuality, and other vile ideas are mixed into math, science, social studies, etc. It pays to occasionally look through one's child's homework and deprogram these ideas from their little brains.

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