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17 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

Empire is hard.  

I’d love it if as families, communities, and as society we could turn out 17.5 year olds that we have full confidence will go on to be healthy, well adjusted, productive members of society.  

I'm not at all positive that's possible. We as a society coddle our kids longer than ever..

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18 hours ago, bud said:

Point taken, JAB. But, for every one of you and me who were hard working 18-year-olds, there are 5 or 10 or 20 or 100 others who are far less responsible.

Why not let 18-year-olds be Congressmen,Senators, or President?

Why not allow them to go to casinos, buy weed where legal, buy alcohol, Adopt a child, easily rent a car, easily get a credit card, get a HCP, solo-pilot a plane, get married without parental consent in some states?

There are lots of rules in the United States, both created by our government and private businesses, that require a person to be over the age of 18 to participate.

Let's raise the age of military eligibility to 21, but allow 18-year-olds with Parental consent or certain hardships to enlist, and other than those 18-year-old soldiers, raise the voting age to 21. Let's have a new across the board age of adulthood where ever the government is involved.

Again, there are also 35 years olds who are not as responsible as some 18 years olds but they still have the full rights and privileges of an adult.  As far as going to casinos, buying weed, buying alcohol, adopting, renting a car, etc. I agree 100% - if 18 year olds are legally adults then, just like any other, legal adult they should be able to do every, single one of those things.  If not then they should be considered 'juveniles' until the age of 21 and treated so by the legal system when it comes to committing crimes, etc.  Adult is adult is adult.  These ridiculous, in-between states of limbo our laws and society create need to go away.

I also disagree with the idea that only 18-21 year olds who are in the military (through special dispensation) should be allowed to vote.  I do not believe in creating 'special classes' of citizens.  Either all 18 year olds can vote or none can.  Yes, allowing all 18 year old adults (which they currently are in our country) who are expected to have the same legal responsibility as other adults to also have the same rights and privileges as every, other adult might be a bit messy but that mess is the price paid for a country that truly believes in individual liberty.  To say that, "Well, you are an adult when it suits us - like when we want to prosecute you as such, etc. - but not when it comes to these privileges," is, to my mind at least, paying lip service to liberty while suppressing individual freedom for the perceived good of 'society'.  I personally do not believe that doing so jibes with the ideals of personal freedom and liberty.  

Edited by JAB
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OK so we make it work another way. 22 to vote, enlist, whatever...Why 22? We redo our educational system and make evey student that is capable go through grade, middle, high, and at least 2 years of college. If someone chooses private schools fine but everyone gets the opportunity. No teaching agendas. Stick to a curiculum that is agreed to (There is one of the hard parts). Now we all of a sudden (In short speak) have a populace coming up that is educated on par with other nations. No more need for any h1b visa holders to work here.

Now we can start teaching morals and ethics as well as real life topics in our schools. One more caveat I can think of, If you drop out, no further assistance from the government! Ever! and you forfeit your right to vote!

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I have thought more about the issue and think I have a good way to illustrate what I am talking about via the usage of two, very similar statements - the only difference being the inclusion of a phrase in one that isn't included in the other.

 

Statement 1:

I think we can all agree that there are some legal, adult 18 year old citizens who are capable of responsibly owning firearms.  I also think that we can all agree that there are some legal, adult 18 year old citizens who would behave irresponsibly with firearms or, though lack of judgement or conscience, purposefully misuse those firearms to do harm to others.  Therefore, while it is unfortunate that we must curtail the rights of the responsible 18 year old citizens to own firearms it is in the interest of public safety and of society as a whole that, for the good of all, 18 year old American citizens not be legally allowed to privately own firearms.

 

Statement 2:

I think we can all agree that there are some legal, adult citizens who are capable of responsibly owning firearms.  I also think that we can all agree that there are some legal, adult citizens who would behave irresponsibly with firearms or, though lack of judgement or conscience, purposefully misuse those firearms to do harm to others.  Therefore, while it is unfortunate that we must curtail the rights of the responsible citizens to own firearms it is in the interest of public safety and of society as a whole that, for the good of all,  American citizens not be legally allowed to privately own firearms.

 

See, it is basically the same argument.

 

Now, as for the students walking out of public schools in protest, that is a different issue entirely as the majority of those students are likely minors and I do not believe that minors have the same standing to exercise rights as adults just as minors cannot legally own firearms.  It is when the argument is made that, "This person is legally an adult but, even though he or she has done nothing to have his or her rights individually curtailed, he or she does not have the same rights as other adults," that I must disagree.

As for the existence of an agenda or lack thereof, just allow me to point out that students were allowed to disrupt class and the school day in order to protest for gun control but if one, individual student were to wear, say, a belt buckle with the Confederate Battle Flag on it then that student would be sent home and possibly suspended (as has happened in the past.)  So, if there is no agenda, how is it that one kid wearing a belt buckle is more 'disruptive' - thereby requiring disciplinary action - than a whole slew of kids walking out?

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5 minutes ago, n0rlf said:

OK so we make it work another way. 22 to vote, enlist, whatever...Why 22? We redo our educational system and make evey student that is capable go through grade, middle, high, and at least 2 years of college. If someone chooses private schools fine but everyone gets the opportunity. No teaching agendas. Stick to a curiculum that is agreed to (There is one of the hard parts). Now we all of a sudden (In short speak) have a populace coming up that is educated on par with other nations. No more need for any h1b visa holders to work here.

Now we can start teaching morals and ethics as well as real life topics in our schools. One more caveat I can think of, If you drop out, no further assistance from the government! Ever! and you forfeit your right to vote!

There are some details there that would need to be worked out but, as the playing field would be levelled and we wouldn't have a group that are adults when it suits the powers that be but aren't adults in other situations then I think it could be a good place to start.

It wouldn't ever get off the ground with the age being 22 however.  Why?  Because currently when a person becomes and adult at age 18 (with certain exceptions) those who are receiving government benefits because their parents receive SSI, etc. stop getting the check at 18.  Also, unless I am mistaken, parents' health insurance and other insurance will often stop covering the kids when they hit adulthood at age 18.  In other words, there is too much money involved from both the federal government and insurance companies for this plan to realistically get anywhere.

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12 minutes ago, bud said:

I think we're on exactly the same page, JAB. You say bring it all in line at 18years old, and I say bring it all in line at 21 years old. Neither one's going to happen though, right? :)

Hey, if things were changed so that the legal age of adulthood is 21, across the board - meaning you are tried as a minor, sentenced as a juvenile, not expected to sign up with selective service, etc. until the age of 21 - I could get behind that.  It is the 'you are an adult in this way but not in that way' idea that I don't like.  And you are probably right, it isn't going to happen but as long as things stay as they are I don't think we should be going along with the removal of a right that 18 year old adults currently have.

Edited by JAB
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2 minutes ago, JAB said:

There are some details there that would need to be worked out but, as the playing field would be levelled and we wouldn't have a group that are adults when it suits the powers that be but aren't adults in other situations then I think it could be a good place to start.

It wouldn't ever get off the ground with the age being 22 however.  Why?  Because currently when a person becomes and adult at age 18 (with certain exceptions) those who are receiving government benefits because their parents receive SSI, etc. stop getting the check at 18.  Also, unless I am mistaken, parents' health insurance and other insurance will often stop covering the kids when they hit adulthood at age 18.  In other words, there is too much money involved from both the federal government and insurance companies for this plan to realistically get anywhere.

Kids can be covered until age 26 now

And yes we would have to have a BIG discussion around the whole SSI thing. It needs to be fixed just like everything else government touchs. 

I am in no way saying it would be easy   just a out of the box thinking thing!

 

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