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6 minutes ago, Chucktshoes said:

 

All that aside, I still think requiring a class to carry one is a problem because I think all prior restraint by the government on the population is a problem. If folks are going to carry impact weapons, they should get training on them just as anyone who carries a gun should get training because it’s the prudent thing to do. Doesn’t mean I think the government should have any input on the matter. 

And THAT is another 100 page thread in the making...😉

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On 12/4/2018 at 7:53 AM, Ronald_55 said:

I have a cane with a brass horse head. Little less obvious. I always wanted to make one from the Mac Truck bulldog hood ornament

If you make two, I'd bet @Chucktshoeswould want one too. 

 

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I have a collapsable mono pod. I took a cue ball ground a flat on one side and put a 1/4-20 threaded insert flush mounted so it screws on tho the mono pod mount for a nice knob to use as a cane. Makes a nice multi purpose device to keep in the pocket of my truck seat in easy reach. I have used it as a monopod for shooting some videos and as a cane when I twisted my knee. It even has a tip that is rubber but can be screwed in and exposes a spike for better grip on rough terrain.

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4 hours ago, Capbyrd said:

If you make two, I'd bet @Chucktshoeswould want one too. 

 

Warning do not search Mac cane for ideas...I found Mac-n-cheese flavored candy canes.....

🤢

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On 12/4/2018 at 9:35 AM, Cruel Hand Luke said:

The issue is that it is viewed as lethal force. The reason it is viewed as "less lethal" for cops is because they ostensibly have training in its use and are using it to subdue not to kill . If you hit someone in the head with a blackjack (or a sap or a baton to a lesser degree) you run a pretty fair chance of giving them a depressed skull fracture. There is a reason that very few police departments allow the use of saps and blackjacks anymore. The certification class teaches you to target areas that are less likely to cause permanent crippling injury or death.

Police can use any means necessary to effect an arrest. Civilians cannot. If you refuse to comply with the officer's commands he can MAKE you comply with empty hands , taser , pepper spray, baton or even a firearm. A civilian can only use lethal force in response to lethal force. Due to his job description he does not operate under the same rules a civilian does. For the police officer the baton is just another level up from pepper spray in the use of force continuum....for a civilian it is viewed as aggravated assault unless he is responding to lethal force. A cop can hit you with a baton for punching him....a civilian is going to have a whole lot of explaining to do as to why he hit someone with a stick (aggravated assault) for punching him . I'm not saying it cannot be articulated , I'm saying it will probably have to be articulated and the answer is not just "Because he hit me"......

We can make the argument that for the average civilian going about their business the baton really serves no purpose.  Police use it to subdue and take into custody individuals who do not want to be subdued and taken into custody. Civilians out in the street are not really supposed to be doing that..... And as such for a civilian , the club (sap, jack, baton) is viewed not a physical compliance tool to effect an arrest but as a lethal force tool. And if you are legally justified to use the baton you are justified to shoot them. Nobody seems to like to hear that but that is the reality of it. 

 

Full disclosure... I actually attended that same Monadnock certification class with Prag back in 2006 and have carried (and maybe used?) a baton when working security in the entertainment business back in the day. I also own about a dozen saps and jacks (Boston Leather, D3 Protection, Foster Brothers) and occasionally carry them. But the curse of being a big strong still fairly young dude is that the court system is going to view my use of a blackjack differently than Prag's use of it. In all honesty if I am justified to use the sap or jack I'm justified in using the pistol. 

There us some sage advice and solid information in this post. Take heed of what Randy is saying here.

At 65 years of age and in very particular circumstances I may well be viewed differently in my use of an impact tool. Be that's a definite maybe... the context of the particular circumstances, the evident nature of the events, disparity of force, my  articulation of the event...many aspects come into play.

I carry an impact tool for very specific circumstances and use. At this time in my life I could only envision that use being in a lethal force encounter where the access, if available, of another more effective tool is not an option. I am a civilian and an old geezer... I would probably be judged less harshly if I used a firearm in a lethal force encounter. I hope I never find out.

Randy, CHL, and I also took one of the only classes (2 that I know of) that Craig Douglas (SouthNarc) ever taught called "Blackjacks & Saps". Craig's background is as a life long student of martial arts (not Do Jo based BS) and as an LEO with several years either undercover or "on top" running undercover narcotic agents. The focus of the class was on impact tool capabilities and the lethal force implications were clearly demonstrated and discussed.  Their use cannot be taken lightly imho.

Excellent post Randy!

 

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1 hour ago, Jamie Jackson said:

 

Randy, CHL, and I also took one of the only classes (2 that I know of) that Craig Douglas (SouthNarc) ever taught called "Blackjacks & Saps". Craig's background is as a life long student of martial arts (not Do Jo based BS) and as an LEO with several years either undercover or "on top" running undercover narcotic agents. The focus of the class was on impact tool capabilities and the lethal force implications were clearly demonstrated and discussed.  Their use cannot be taken lightly imho.

 

 

Yes good times! I seem to remember hitting you with a hammer fist while you were aggressively panhandling me....😉 And for those reading along no it was not a 100% power strike and yes he had head protection on. We wore FIST helmets for protection in the class...and even then we could ONLY hit each other with empty hands and saps NO BLACKJACKS to the head ! As I mentioned before there is a reason that blackjacks and saps are not nearly as common in police work as they once were. The likelihood of permanent injury or death from hits to the head is very real. 

Also when I actually left a mark on Rick's forehead in the shape of the edge of the sap THROUGH the FIST Helmet from about a 75% strike that was pretty telling of what would have happened to him WITHOUT the padding of the FIST Helmet from a 100% strike. Most folks just don't realize how much more directed impact is generated by just a few ounces of lead focused into a small area.

OTOH when I hit him with just a hammer fist and he thought I had hit him with the sap that told me that I was probably generating enough impact with the hammer fist to solve most problems without needing to access a tool. 

Incidentally Larry Lindenman (Point Driven Training) is now teaching a similar class to the one Craig did for us and uses tape covered children's flip flops as "training saps" so that you can run the class without all the protective gear. Pretty ingenious.   

Edited by Cruel Hand Luke

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