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Steve Dickerson (R-Nashville) to Introduce Red Flag Bill

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On 12/3/2018 at 10:51 AM, Chucktshoes said:

As always, the devil is in the details. Developing a process where there is true due process to determine if someone is a danger isn’t necessarily a bad thing. Ideally it would work in conjunction with adjustments to involuntary psychiatric hold laws to make it easier to get help for folks that need it while at the same time providing for a way for folks to have their rights reinstated after a period of time of improved mental health. Many psychiatric disturbances are temporary in nature and the laws should recognize that.

An acquaintance of mine framed this in what I think is a near perfect manner. “If we viewed these mass shooting incidents as suicide in want of company, we might actually make some progress.” He was right. As gun owners we can’t say “this is a mental health issue, not a gun issue.” Then bury our heads in the sand and do nothing about addressing mental health issues. I don’t know that the bill being introduced by Dickerson is a good one or not, but I do think that as a state level action, there is the chance to actually make it a quality piece of workable law, and failing that tank it for cause and be vocal about why it wasn’t good legislation. This is a moment where movement will be made on these types of laws whether we like it or not. At the state level, we can make it a good law or we can eat a bad one. It’s up to us to choose.

 

 

 

**I just encouraged civic engagement with lawmakers, do y’all know how bitter of a taste that leaves in my mouth? What’s the world coming to?🤦‍♂️**

 

The problem with due process around mental health is that everyone is crazy, so who is going to be the judge? "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society".

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I’ve seen orders of protection issued on more than one occasion by angry ex-wives after false accusations of “fear” and “abuse” and watched gun buddies go through living hell having their guns need to all be moved elsewhere until they could get that settled.  Some of them were FFLs or SOTs and lost their businesses and reputations in the process.  

One of my closest friends from where I came from who is in the industry lived under constant blackmail and extortion from a disgruntled ex that she would get his guns taken away unless he did “x” (pay her, get back together, stop seeing other people, pay her...pay her).

This is more than a slippery slope.  It’s the above scenario now open to anyone who doesn’t like you or wants to see your guns out of your hands...or see you get hurt or killed in the process of an attempted confiscation.  

No compromises.  

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I just think Red Flag laws do more harm than good. Anyone that does not like you for any reason can file a complaint and get your guns taken away before any Due Process has taken place in court. I think there should be very strict guidelines in which a complaint can be filed. Then I think it should be required that the Accused and Complaintant should be required to face each other in a court of law and the complaintant must prove his/her case beyond a shadow of a doubt before he can get the complaint filed. If the complaintant cannot prove their case they should be required to pay all court costs and attorneys fees for both people involved.

Knowing that they could end up losing and paying all of this may cause them to think twice before filing a false report...................JMHO 

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7 hours ago, asu174 said:

I’ve seen orders of protection issued on more than one occasion by angry ex-wives after false accusations of “fear” and “abuse” and watched gun buddies go through living hell having their guns need to all be moved elsewhere until they could get that settled.  Some of them were FFLs or SOTs and lost their businesses and reputations in the process.  

One of my closest friends from where I came from who is in the industry lived under constant blackmail and extortion from a disgruntled ex that she would get his guns taken away unless he did “x” (pay her, get back together, stop seeing other people, pay her...pay her).

This is more than a slippery slope.  It’s the above scenario now open to anyone who doesn’t like you or wants to see your guns out of your hands...or see you get hurt or killed in the process of an attempted confiscation.  

No compromises.  

 

55 minutes ago, bersaguy said:

I just think Red Flag laws do more harm than good. Anyone that does not like you for any reason can file a complaint and get your guns taken away before any Due Process has taken place in court. I think there should be very strict guidelines in which a complaint can be filed. Then I think it should be required that the Accused and Complaintant should be required to face each other in a court of law and the complaintant must prove his/her case beyond a shadow of a doubt before he can get the complaint filed. If the complaintant cannot prove their case they should be required to pay all court costs and attorneys fees for both people involved.

Knowing that they could end up losing and paying all of this may cause them to think twice before filing a false report...................JMHO 

That will never work, and never pass. You can’t make people pay because someone might abuse the system. Police departments rely on the public to report crimes, perceived crimes, or even when they don’t know for sure if a crime is being committed. As long as they are acting in good faith there will be no repercussions; crime or not.

You won’t have a whole bunch of legal fees doing it the way I suggest; because it would be done in hours. The threat is immediate and must be dealt with immediately. You will be taken before a Judge and make your case. You could have a reasonable amount of time to contact a lawyer if you wish; but hours, not days. And it would be your responsibility to get them there.

You can’t turn a blind eye to this because a pissed off wife might lie. If she does; she can be arrested for filling a false Police report. If you can’t prove she’s lying and if she convinces a Judge you are a danger to yourself or others; you married the wrong woman didn’t you? That’s not our problem.

Police will continue to be called to acts of violence, threats of suicide, and mental cases appearing to be out of control. They are not social workers and they will continue to take the weapons based on their gut feelings about what’s going on and who is telling the truth. That is what they do now in most places I’m aware of and just saying “we don’t like this” isn’t going to cut it. If you don’t like it you need to come up with a better plan.

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3 hours ago, DaveTN said:

That is what they do now in most places I’m aware of and just saying “we don’t like this” isn’t going to cut it. If you don’t like it you need to come up with a better plan.

Telling our representatives “we don’t like this” and why is exactly what I’m doing.  The law isn’t passed yet.  My plan is to say hell no.  Already emailed and called his office.  Have you?  It seems like you’ve already accepted this.  

The fact that I had to go get a “mother may I” permit to carry a gun in this state disgusts me and I’ve noticed many gun owners of TN seem to be complacent.  I overheard a conversation in a gun store by “regulars” there basically saying they wouldn’t care about an AWB because it wouldn’t affect them   

We got Constitutional Carry and guns in bars (for non-drinkers) passed in my old state.  The latest win here is “guns in trunks”.  That’s a joke.  

I know, I know...  If it was so much better where I came from, go back.  Sometimes I wish I could, but I can’t and I will leave it at that.  I do like it here.  The mindset is just totally different.

Edited by asu174

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Is due process even a thing anymore? It would appear everyone is tried in the court of public opinion these days with the media leading the prosecutions.

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13 minutes ago, sigmtnman said:

Is due process even a thing anymore? It would appear everyone is tried in the court of public opinion these days with the media leading the prosecutions.

No. Heck, we even have people on this forum that don't believe in due process for everyone.

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13 hours ago, asu174 said:

Telling our representatives “we don’t like this” and why is exactly what I’m doing.  The law isn’t passed yet.  My plan is to say hell no.  Already emailed and called his office.  Have you?  It seems like you’ve already accepted this.  

The fact that I had to go get a “mother may I” permit to carry a gun in this state disgusts me and I’ve noticed many gun owners of TN seem to be complacent.  I overheard a conversation in a gun store by “regulars” there basically saying they wouldn’t care about an AWB because it wouldn’t affect them   

We got Constitutional Carry and guns in bars (for non-drinkers) passed in my old state.  The latest win here is “guns in trunks”.  That’s a joke.  

I know, I know...  If it was so much better where I came from, go back.  Sometimes I wish I could, but I can’t and I will leave it at that.  I do like it here.  The mindset is just totally different.

Guns can already be removed by law enforcement in this state, only they don’t need a court to deem them dangerous to do it. Wouldn’t a law specifically defining what the Due Process will be, be a good thing?

 Accepted what? I haven’t seen a bill; I don’t see that he has proposed a bill.

You are new here, I don’t know what gun store you were in, but I think you will see here most oppose an AWB. It would impact most of us.

How is our mindset different than yours? I believe we should be able to have whatever weapons we want; including machine guns. But I also believe that you will not threaten people with violence, if you do; you will be arrested and your weapons seized. If you threaten suicide that will require law enforcement to act…period. I just support a requirement for immediate court action to determine what will happen and give you a chance to have a hearing before a Judge prior to being committed or permanently seizing weapons. A hearing days or weeks down the road is unacceptable.

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33 minutes ago, sigmtnman said:

Is due process even a thing anymore? It would appear everyone is tried in the court of public opinion these days with the media leading the prosecutions.

The argument is being made that we have due process. We do, but attorneys don’t like to act fast. That is how guns are seized and held forever. Most areas have Judges on call 24 hours a day and there are very few cases of guns being seized from people that are suspected of having mental issues. There is no reason these people can’t be taken before a Judge and let them hear the evidence and witnesses. That way if it’s a crazy ex-wife; the Judge can make that call. If they determine the person obviously has issues a more in-depth hearing can be set for a later date.

If someone has a better idea… let’s hear it.

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I think this could potentially be another bad law used in divorce type situations with arguing spouses to get back at each other.

There are laws on the books to deal with convicted felons.  There are also laws already on the books to deal with people who are so  mentally unstable that the courts need to supervise.  I don't see a new law fixing these two issues.

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7 hours ago, 300winmag said:

I think this could potentially be another bad law used in divorce type situations with arguing spouses to get back at each other.

There are laws on the books to deal with convicted felons.  There are also laws already on the books to deal with people who are so  mentally unstable that the courts need to supervise.  I don't see a new law fixing these two issues.

That’s my point. What you are worried about is being done right now.

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On ‎12‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 1:19 PM, bersaguy said:

I just think Red Flag laws do more harm than good. Anyone that does not like you for any reason can file a complaint and get your guns taken away before any Due Process has taken place in court. I think there should be very strict guidelines in which a complaint can be filed. Then I think it should be required that the Accused and Complaintant should be required to face each other in a court of law and the complaintant must prove his/her case beyond a shadow of a doubt before he can get the complaint filed. If the complaintant cannot prove their case they should be required to pay all court costs and attorneys fees for both people involved.

Knowing that they could end up losing and paying all of this may cause them to think twice before filing a false report...................JMHO 

I like the idea, but I see slim chance of it happening. Some lib will say it's too time consuming and not cost effective.

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