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PAULSHOOT

Regarding Traffic Stops & Action After Self Defense

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Probably not new information to most - maybe new to some.
 
Anyway, I think good information for anyone carrying a gun and thinking self defense. Disclaimer is I ain't a lawyer and I am just relaying information Hopefully, food for thought about the two (2) Topics in the subject of this Topic and maybe help someone.  
 
The link from USLaw Shield is a video regarding a Traffic Stop and one of the best presentations I have seen. It is good stuff for any situation, gun or no gun in vehicle. The last part dwells on how to handle situation if carrying a gun in vehicle. USLaw Shield is  a member thing to aid in legal defense. 
 
The following I made up after an interaction of E Mail Conversations with with CCWSafe. I modified the information they relayed to me as their comments were in long paragraph form, I broke it down into 5 ITEMS with sub items. It is oriented to a CCWSafe member, but also good advice if not a member of anything. CCWSafe is a member thing to aid in legal defense. 
 
Paul, Here is what we recommend for an incident (self defense). David Darter CCW Safe david@ccwsafe.com

We have a simple Action plan: 

My (PAULSHOOT) version -- Ignore my typing, spelling, organization, and other errors - it is a work in progress. 🙄

 

ITEM 1)

A Make sure you are out of harm’s way,

B Take a position of cover so you can see the suspect,

C Call 911 and request police and medical, advise you had to defend your life and tell them what you are wearing,

D Do not give details of the incident unless in front of your attorney, when you verify the police are on the way get off the phone with 911 (it’s a recorded line)

ITEM 2)

A Call CCW Safe hotline and let them know who you are, that you have had a shooting incident, where you are (NOTE - Item 5 in case you are arrested and not had time to contact CCWSafe until you get your one call at Police Station) ,

B You will be patched into your attorney for a privileged conversation for details, follow the instructions of the CCW Safe attorney and prepare for the officers.

C) Do not have your weapon in your hand as Police approach.

D) Point out witnesses (add on 01-28-2019 point out evidence also) . Request photos of your injuries and medical assistance if needed. Remember you are a victim,  so act like one.

ITEM 3)

A Do not exchange any information with other witnesses or post on social media anything about the incident.

B Do not talk to attorney in the back of police car or the station (you have no expectation of privacy and you are probably being recorded).

ITEM 4)

A Do not advise you have a self-defense shooting service, or show them your CCWSafe card,

B Advise you will cooperate and provide details in front of your attorney.

ITEM 5) Added precaution in case you have not contacted CCWSafe before being arrested and then allowed only one phone call.

A It is always good to have our emergency number posted at your home or with a loved one.  This way, you could make the one (1) call to them ( a number you would have if police take your phone).

B Then we can take a call from a spouse or other loved one (family member or friend).  This would get the emergency protocol immediately started as well. That question has come up before and this is what we recommended. 

 

 
Edited by PAULSHOOT
Correct errors and change the funny face to a B. I had typed B and got a funny face - weird. LOL
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This has been discussed here many times.

The video on the traffic stop is probably the best I have seen. The only thing I would do different is that I have my HCP and driver’s license together. That way I don’t have to have a discussion about firearms unless he wants to have it. I fully understand that notifying the Officer is not a requirement in Tennessee; but as a former Police Officer I believe it is a very good idea.

He makes a good point about not arguing about the violation with the Officer. There is nothing wrong with calmly discussing the alleged offense, but traffic court isn’t held on the street. Having a calm discussion with the Officer is a good thing. A positive discussion reduces the chance of a ticket.

As far as a shooting…

The only person that will be impacted legally by your shooting is you and your family; not your attorney, not anyone on this forum and certainly not the cops.  Therefore it is your responsibility to have a plan that makes sense to you. …and works.

I know the difference in a good shoot and a bad shoot. I also know that people at the scene are making decisions about me that could impact by life and my financial well-being. If a person is shot or dead; I am detained. Officers and Detectives at the scene will decide if a crime has been committed and if I committed it. They can’t decide that and let me leave without a statement from me. So they will get that.

Now I know that isn’t a popular thing to say on a gun site where you have had it beat into your head post after post to not say anything and call your attorney. If you want to invoke your constitutional rights and not make a statement, or you don’t want to make a statement without your attorney present; that’s fine, as I said above you and you alone will bear the consequences of that decision.

I can say that because I know I am not going to be a willful participant in a road rage incident. If I am a willful participant in an argument and I get attacked; I will either take my azz whipping, or whip their azz; I will not pull a gun. If you pull a gun or shot someone in that kind of circumstance; yes, you need to have an attorney before making a statement. If you pull a gun on someone and they take off; call the Police and stay until they arrive.

The biggest advantage I see to having shooting insurance is that you have a 24 hour a day phone number of someone you can call. Some seem to think that you saying you want to call your attorney will cause the Police to let you leave; I can assure it will not. They will tell you to call them. It would be in your best interest if you can talk to your attorney at 2AM when you have been involved in a shooting. So if you are going to invoke your right to remain silent try to have an attorney that you can talk with at the scene. They aren’t going to let you leave until you either make a statement or are arrested.

I hope this never happens to anyone here.

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DaveTN, you mentioned that you wouldn't be allowed to leave until you gave a statement, or you are arrested; that caught my attention.  I hadn't thought about it exactly that way.  So, if witnesses or evidence attest to your innocence, you would still be arrested, if you choose to wait on a statement?  I would not want to issue a statement (even with atty present) for 48 hours, to make sure my senses were recovered, like LEOs.  See "statement," below.  And, some concealed carry programs only have you speak to a trained rep that is not a lawyer, at the scene.  This could have a big impact on which carrier to choose.  And, arrested and charged are two different things.  So, how does that play out?  If covered, your bail is paid.  How much discretion does TN give the responding officers to not arrest?  I guess I could see that for a homeowner (in his home) after a shooting where there was evidence of a break in.  

BTW, It was mentioned to point out witnesses to the LE responders, but I don't think it mentioned evidence.  Make sure any evidence is preserved, and made known, too.  And, I've heard to tell 911 that there was a shooting, not that you had to defend yourself?  And, to either hang up on 911, put on hold, etc. to call your cc program.  Most can't avoid wanting to talk and protest innocence, after an event.  And, most are in a crazy kind of state of excitement, confusion, fear, etc.  Again, I want 48 hours before I have to give any detail; and that means not talking to 911 operators any more than necessary.  Then, to LEO, only say that you were in fear for your life, and had to defend yourself (pointing out witnesses and evidence.)  Would that be enough of a "statement?"

There are so many different solutions by so many different sources that I have listened to as many as possible, and crafted my own list to rely on, if there is a sd event.  I stay ready to learn and amend, so I appreciate discussions like this.

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16 hours ago, walthermitty said:

DaveTN, you mentioned...

Every single incident is different.

 Every department is different and every Officer can be different. I don’t know what Tennessee does; I was a cop in another state. We had discretion on misdemeanors; not felonies. If for some reason we had a person that had been accused of a felony and we didn’t want to make an arrest; we had to notify command and they would decide or call a DA to decide. Usually the DA would back the decision of the Officer at the scene.

Your goal is not to win at trial; your goal is to not go to trial.

You can ask questions without making a statement. If you want to wait 48 hours before making a statement; ask them, and see what they say will happen. Then make a decision about what you do.  I’m not suggesting you roll over and give up your rights. I’m saying these Officers responding are making decisions that will impact your life. I want them on my side. If for some reason I thought I may be arrested or charged; I absolutely will be waiting to talk to an attorney.

As far as witnesses and evidence goes; the cops need to believe that a crime was committed and you committed it to make an arrest.

If you woke in the middle of the night to a sound in your house and walked out to see a stranger standing in your living room and you shot him dead. The Police have a murder victim and you killed him. Without a statement from you they don’t know if you shot an intruder or a visiting friend.

As far as knowing the law; some people believe that laws, commonly referred to as Castle Doctrine laws, give them the right to kill an intruder. That is true if you believe you were in immediate fear of death or great bodily harm. If when asked if you were in fear for your life you respond with “No, I wasn’t in fear; but I don’t need to be, I have the right to shoot a burglar”. You may have a problem because that statement is not true.

Again, I’m not saying don’t talk to an attorney, but if you are going to do that; have a plan that makes that happen fast.

Most cops aren’t going to want to charge you if you shot a criminal. However things can go wrong. A Nashville Officer is going to stand trial for murder in a case where he was clearly justified. He had attorneys. Public opinion and politics could get involved in your shooting.

Having a plan to be able to contact an attorney in the middle of the night is like buying insurance; you hope you never need it, but it’s there if you do need it.

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The word statement is confusing -- what it means probably varies officer on scene to another officer on scene. 

I feel if I was ever involved in a Defense Shooting, a statement, "I feared for my life and here are witnesses and evidence that I can point out. I am willing to cooperate later when I have a lawyer" should be adequate for any officer.  By The Way -  I certainly hope I would never use the wrong force in what I thought was a Self Defense that was not a Self Defense legally, 

I can see no reason for an officer to want  a statement of details from someone in shock (a person is very likely to say the wrong thing and have that held against you later or even be the cause for an arrest).

Beyond the statement as most suggest, arrest me if the officer feels he needs to arrest me. Hopefully, the hearing will determine it was Self Defense and if not the trial will.  I can understand the pressure on an officer (they don;t know what took place either and likely don;t want to error on the side of releasing a murderer).  As in the FL Convenience Store Case, officer (sheriff)  did not make an arrest, prosecutors later did.  

Absolutely, there are no guarantees with our justice system and trial system (it often depends on the smartest lawyer either prosecutor or defense, money available for defense, defendants position in society, jury knowledge, jury intelligence to weigh the presentation,  jury prejudice, public opinion, and in a self defense case area of the country being gun or no gun oriented). 

There is seldom a clear cut case of facts, just a lot of arguments about what happened and experts on both sides testifying. I sat on two Murder Trials and it ain't easy - we convicted one and found another innocent.

Not one of us in those juries was there to see what happened when it happened. They never are. 

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I disagree with DaveTN on this.   Cops aren't there for you.  They work for the prosecutors.  I bet its a rare occurrence for a defense attorney to have a cop as a star witness.   But the prosecutors sure will.  Don't give the cops/prosecution anymore than you absolutely have to until you have an advocate of your own.  
 

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On 1/26/2019 at 10:43 AM, DaveTN said:

.....

The video on the traffic stop is probably the best I have seen. The only thing I would do different is that I have my HCP and driver’s license together. That way I don’t have to have a discussion about firearms unless he wants to have it. ...

Permit no longer relevant to firearms in the vehicle in TN, ya know. You maybe assuming one projects a better image doing that or whatever?

- OS

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2 hours ago, Oh Shoot said:

Permit no longer relevant to firearms in the vehicle in TN, ya know. You maybe assuming one projects a better image doing that or whatever?

- OS

Yes. That's what the next sentence in the part you cut said.

 

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On 1/30/2019 at 5:51 PM, Oh Shoot said:

Permit no longer relevant to firearms in the vehicle in TN, ya know. You maybe assuming one projects a better image doing that or whatever?

- OS

I think it's a good way to tell the officer that you are carrying a firearm.  When presented with a concealed carry permit, they'll usually ask if you have firearm on you and it's location.  I'd much rather disclose that I have a pistol on me than them to spot it when reaching in the glove box for insurance card/registration or other movement.  That's more likely to fuel an intense situation.

Something a former LEO said to me is that criminals are unlikely go through the process of getting a carry permit.  Showing a carry permit upfront demonstrates to the officer that you are concerned about the safety of you both.

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The advice to say NOTHING is the advice that is given by attorneys who have a lot of experience defending guilty people. Ask Larry Hickey how that turned out for him. While he was invoking his right to remain silent evidence disappeared , was missed at the scene ,  and he was assumed to have been the aggressor when he was not.

Fortunately for him after spending 71 days in jail and the better part of a couple of years in and out of court resulting in 2 hung juries the "victims" (the aggressors who outnumbered him ) who started the fight made a play for a payout from Larry's homeowners insurance and finally had to admit that the shooting took place ON LARRY'S PROPERTY and not in the street as they had claimed and testified to in court. If Larry had mentioned that at the scene then that would have been in the record to begin with and there's a good chance he would not have looked like the guilty party.....but by taking the "I ain't sayin' nothin' without my attorney" stance he got put in the suspect column instead of the victim column. 

 

Do what you want. If you are guilty of a crime then the best thing for you to do is DON'T SAY ANYTHING but if you have just legitimately defended yourself or others and you don't give at least a limited statement (limited statement and THEN be quiet) you are making a mistake. You need to make sure that exculpatory evidence and witnesses get put on the record. Also, 911 not only records everything but it STARTS recording as soon as the number is dialed. So keep that in mind as well. 

Edited by Cruel Hand Luke
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2 hours ago, Cruel Hand Luke said:

If you are guilty of a crime then the best thing for you to do is DON'T SAY ANYTHING but if you have just legitimately defended yourself or others and you don't give at least a limited statement (limited statement and THEN be quiet) you are making a mistake. You need to make sure that exculpatory evidence and witnesses get put on the record. Also, 911 not only records everything but it STARTS recording as soon as the number is dialed. So keep that in mind as well. 

 

Cops deem you guilty before they arrive.   Don't talk to them.   
 

 

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Link is not working for me. 

 

Regardless...if you want to play "silent treatment" to the responding cops after you shot someone in legitimate self defense then good luck to you. You are going to make things a lot harder on yourself than they need to be. I know of people who have shot someone in self defense and not even been arrested. How? They asserted that they were the victim, gave a limited statement that was a narrative that matched the physical evidence and it was determined at the scene that they were more likely than not telling the truth. I actually have a student who shot and killed an armed robber and did not spend 1 minute in jail nor was he charged with anything. A big part of that is because he TOLD THEM WHAT HAPPENED at the scene. If he'd kept quite and said NOTHING then he'd have gone to jail while they looked at the evidence at the scene and figured out what happened.

 

And keep in mind that you may spend SEVERAL days in jail before they even bring you in front of a magistrate for even a bond hearing. If it happens on Friday you are in for the weekend. And depending on WHERE it took place and how that particular judicial circuit runs it COULD take almost a month (YES a MONTH) to get a bond hearing. Suddenly "keep your mouth shut" doesn't sound like such good advice...unless what you DO have to say will get you convicted which is why attorneys who are used to only defending guilty people tell everyone to "say nothing". 

I'm NOT saying the cops are your friends. They are there to process information not to make sure justice is done.  I'm saying if you don't assert that YOU ARE THE VICTIM (that limited statement I mention)  then you are going to be viewed (and most likely charged) as the perpetrator.  

Edited by Cruel Hand Luke
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2 hours ago, Cruel Hand Luke said:

Link is not working for me. 

 

Regardless...if you want to play "silent treatment" to the responding cops after you shot someone in legitimate self defense then good luck to you. You are going to make things a lot harder on yourself than they need to be. I know of people who have shot someone in self defense and not even been arrested. How? They asserted that they were the victim, gave a limited statement that was a narrative that matched the physical evidence and it was determined at the scene that they were more likely than not telling the truth. I actually have a student who shot and killed an armed robber and did not spend 1 minute in jail nor was he charged with anything. A big part of that is because he TOLD THEM WHAT HAPPENED at the scene. If he'd kept quite and said NOTHING then he'd have gone to jail while they looked at the evidence at the scene and figured out what happened.

 

And keep in mind that you may spend SEVERAL days in jail before they even bring you in front of a magistrate for even a bond hearing. If it happens on Friday you are in for the weekend. And depending on WHERE it took place and how that particular judicial circuit runs it COULD take almost a month (YES a MONTH) to get a bond hearing. Suddenly "keep your mouth shut" doesn't sound like such good advice...unless what you DO have to say will get you convicted which is why attorneys who are used to only defending guilty people tell everyone to "say nothing". 

I'm NOT saying the cops are your friends. They are there to process information not to make sure justice is done.  I'm saying if you don't assert that YOU ARE THE VICTIM (that limited statement I mention)  then you are going to be viewed (and most likely charged) as the perpetrator.  

As a former LEO I agree with that whole-heartedly.  

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4 hours ago, Cruel Hand Luke said:

I'm NOT saying the cops are your friends. They are there to process information not to make sure justice is done.  I'm saying if you don't assert that YOU ARE THE VICTIM (that limited statement I mention)  then you are going to be viewed (and most likely charged) as the perpetrator.  

CHL, as a former Police Officer I’ve said the same things you are saying many times here. Ignorance of the system and how it works makes it easier for some to listen to the “Never talk to the cops” non-sense. It’s as important a part of their training as understanding when you are and are not justified in the use of deadly force. Based on your comments I assume you discuss it in your classes.

It’s been discussed here many, many times. It’s easier for some to just believe that whatever an attorney tells them to do; they do. I would agree with that if the attorney is YOUR attorney and is talking about YOUR set of specific circumstances.

I don’t know how many times I’ve had an accused in a criminal case refuse to make a statement during my investigation. I have told them “You need to call them right now; they will want you to talk to me.”

If a person believes that the cops are out to get them; then by all means, refuse to speak and get cuffed and stuffed. If you are innocent you will have a great story later on about how the cops arrested you for no reason. You’ll want to tell that story a lot because you probably will have paid a lot for the privilege of telling it.

The truth is that from the first cops on the scene through the investigators, DA, and Judge or jury; people are going to be making decisions that will impact your freedom and your family’s financial future. If you are innocent and it makes sense to impede them in any way possible; make sure you have an attorney that you can contact any time of the day or night.

If you are guilty of a crime, or you believe your shoot is questionable; by all means wait to get an attorney.

You can find cases of people that were arrested, or what you believe to be wrongly convicted. But I doubt many of those cases were because they made a statement; although it could happen.

The bottom line is knowing the law, knowing your situation and knowing that no one, not even your attorney, will be held responsible for the decisions you make. It’s all on you.

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On a lighter note I can’t count the number of times I’ve told a suspect “You have the right to remain silent; please use it.” :)

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19 hours ago, Capbyrd said:

Cops deem you guilty before they arrive.   Don't talk to them.   

There are so many things wrong in that video, but nothing to do with talking to the Police. If anything cooperating with them and telling them what it was will probably get her a higher award if she gets punitive damages in her civil case.

Three months for the crime lab to test a drug when the suspect is being held in jail is a problem.

$1M in bail is a problem.

Using a product you have been made aware can give a false positive for Cotton candy, headache powder, breath mints, or other common items, and then holding someone in jail based on that test, is not only a problem; it should be a Federal Civil Rights violation. That problem can be laid right at the feet of one person; the Sheriff or Chief allowing it. Its another case where the Feds will have to step in and tell that person they are incapable of running a Law Enforcement Agency.

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1 hour ago, DaveTN said:

There are so many things wrong in that video, but nothing to do with talking to the Police. If anything cooperating with them and telling them what it was will probably get her a higher award if she gets punitive damages in her civil case.

 

I'm sure they asked permission to search the car and she said yes thinking she had nothing to hide.   Never cooperate with your oppressors.  They are out to get you and that video is proof.  Or how about the cop that arrested a bunch of people for DUI that weren't drunk?   Same thing.  Cooperating with cops is a terrible mistake.  
 

 

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OK I think we are having 2 separate discussions. I am talking about giving a limited statement if you SHOOT SOMEONE . I have said NOTHING about traffic stops or whether to let them search your car or whether to answer questions AT A TRAFFIC STOP.  If you want to be adversarial at a traffic stop rock on. If you want to go all "Sovereign Citizen" on them at a road block then have fun. If you want to continuously ask "What crime are you suspecting I have committed? Am I free to go" over and over and over and over at a traffic stop then have a ball. I have been talking about something else entirely. If you want to assert your rights and make the officer's next 20 minutes the worst 20 minutes of his week by being completely (but respectfully ) non cooperative then go right ahead. If you KNOW your rights and assert them at a traffic stop and prefer to not be cooperative you are not going to be going to jail for suspicion of murder, manslaughter or at a minimum aggravated assault..... like you most likely will if you play "deaf and dumb" at the scene of a defensive shooting. 

 I am trying to keep people from getting stuffed in the back of the patrol car and charged with MURDER because they took "guilty man's attorney " advice when you could just as easily have gone home that night by instead getting it on record that YOU are the VICTIM and that YOU were defending yourself. Absent that declaration from you, you look just like all the other murderers they arrest..... but hey whatever.... we are all adults and make our own informed (hopefully?) decisions. 

Edited by Cruel Hand Luke

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13 minutes ago, Cruel Hand Luke said:

 I am trying to keep people from getting stuffed in the back of the patrol car and charged with MURDER because they took "guilty man's attorney " advice when you could just as easily have gone home that night by instead getting it on record that YOU are the VICTIM and that YOU were defending yourself. Absent that declaration from you, you look just like all the other murderers they arrest..... but hey whatever.... we are all adults and make our own informed (hopefully?) decisions. 

No, I'm having the same conversation.   The cops are not on your side and never will be, unless you wear blue.   If you don't the only surefire way to "keep from getting stuffed in the back of the patrol car" is to not defend yourself.   Nothing you tell them will help you.  Anything you say WILL BE USED AGAINST you.   It's right there in your rights.   They are out to get you.   It's their job and they LOVE it. 

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We are talking about the same people that have testified again pro carry legislation of guns and knives.   They want us disarmed and compliant.   They are on the record saying as much.   This isn't conspiracy nut talking.   This is actual fact.   

So maybe the average beat cop that responds to calls doesn't feel the same.  But his boss does.   The DA does.   And average beat cop is going to do what they tell him to do because "well its my job" or "if you don't like it change the law."   Never forget that blue is a gang color. 

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Well ....that is your right , you can remain silent. And everyone I know (and know of) in the "expert witness business" and attorneys who actually have experience defending innocent people all give the same advice.... give a limited statement to make sure you are on record as being the victim. Again...ask Larry Hickey how remaining silent did not help him .  

 

For those who don't know Larry's story ......https://armedcitizensnetwork.org/images/stories/Hickey_Booklet.pdf

He was an instructor for Tactical Response and took the " STFU" advice that they gave...... if he'd just told the cops what happened instead of clamming up he'd have probably slept in his own bed that night and not spent 71 days in jail.... 

 

 

And on traffic stops...I guess I have just been lucky. I have yet to be set upon by the jack booted thugs of the state.  In the last 30 years I have been pulled over probably a good 10 times for things ranging from running a stop sign (dismissed in court with help of the officer who I did not know) speeding (went to court and spent a day in DD school) and several times where I should have gotten a ticket but got a warning instead. And then there was one time that the cop didn't want to write me an expensive ticket for speeding so he asked me to take my seat belt off while he turned around and looked away so he could then write it for a seat belt violation instead of for speeding.

So I'm not sure which exact jurisdiction all the "out to get you" street cops are in but apparently it is not in any of the ones I've been pulled over in (ranging from TN to GA, and AL)  I have yet to have my rights violated, and far more times than not I have been let go with just a warning. But then again I don't get adversarial with them and I show them the same respect I show preachers and little old ladies. 

 

Edited by Cruel Hand Luke
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2 hours ago, Capbyrd said:

They are out to get you.   It's their job and they LOVE it. 

Cap, that's an awfully broad brush you're painting with there...

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Great thread, not much to add other than I won't be using ,"fear for my life."

More like, "dude was going to kill me, rape my wife, abduct my family member," because:

I was paying attention,

this is what he was doing

and I was unable to escape.

Regarding traffic stops, no issues here.

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12 hours ago, deerslayer said:

Cap, that's an awfully broad brush you're painting with there...

He seems to do that a lot. Since I was a LEO decades ago I find his wild claims offensive to a degree. He claims that because I was a cop I lack integrity.

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24 minutes ago, SWJewellTN said:

He seems to do that a lot. Since I was a LEO decades ago I find his wild claims offensive to a degree. He claims that because I was a cop I lack integrity.

Don’t let it bother you man. It used to bother me and came very to close to getting me banned here. Now I try very hard to address the issues being discussed without posting any judgements about why the person is making the statements they are making.

We won’t change the minds of any cop haters. I often wonder what happened to them to have that much hate. You and I both know something may have happened to them to cause that hate.

Having been a Police Officer I try to help the people that are asking questions understand what is going on and what is going to happen based on my experience. This is the internet, everyone offers their opinions and it is up to the reader to decide if what they are reading makes sense.

I hate to see young people get bad information, sometimes from their parents, that will get the kids jammed up, simply because their parents hate cops. Parents owe their kids better than that.

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