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Chucktshoes

Trading maps for the GPS, it’s gonna bite us

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“Using GPS instead of maps is the most consequential exchange of technologies in history.
Maps can’t be hacked. GPS can be. We’ll pay for this one day”

This is actually a really well written and thought provoking essay. As someone who double checks his GPS with an atlas and maps several times a week, one which is near and dear to my heart. 

https://www.salon.com/2019/05/04/using-gps-instead-of-maps-is-the-most-consequential-exchange-of-technologies-in-history/

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Can't and won't disagree with your premise, but without a very large supply of maps; finding places that aren't on major roadways, and in neighborhoods can be frighteningly difficult without something like a Garmin or Maps app on a smartphone.

Do I believe this dependence on this and other forms of technology is causing a lack of learning to think and solve problems without "Skynet's assistance" lol, is destroying our lives?

You bet your John Connor t-shirt I do.

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8 hours ago, hipower said:

Can't and won't disagree with your premise, but without a very large supply of maps; finding places that aren't on major roadways, and in neighborhoods can be frighteningly difficult without something like a Garmin or Maps app on a smartphone.

Do I believe this dependence on this and other forms of technology is causing a lack of learning to think and solve problems without "Skynet's assistance" lol, is destroying our lives?

You bet your John Connor t-shirt I do.

Yep... remember when you only had a vague notion of where a place was within a few miles and you actually had to drive around and find it?  Being accordionated is a rapidly dying skill. I used to spend hours "navigating" with the map in my lap on family road trips.  And I put that in quotes because Dad already knew where to go, he was just cross-checking my map reading skills. 

What many people don't realize is how often their GPS is just guessing, especially here in the mountains.  

Edited by peejman

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9 hours ago, hipower said:

Can't and won't disagree with your premise, but without a very large supply of maps; finding places that aren't on major roadways, and in neighborhoods can be frighteningly difficult without something like a Garmin or Maps app on a smartphone.

 Do I believe this dependence on this and other forms of technology is causing a lack of learning to think and solve problems without "Skynet's assistance" lol, is destroying our lives?

You bet your John Connor t-shirt I do.

What's wrong with a large supply of maps.   Orienteering was one of my favorite classes at scout camp.  

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41 minutes ago, Capbyrd said:

What's wrong with a large supply of maps.   Orienteering was one of my favorite classes at scout camp.  

Nothing at all. I still have state maps of where we have traveled and hope to go. Just gets cumbersome carrying a bunch of maps and difficult to open and find things on the fly in the vehicle. And it's difficult to get maps of every little city and town you'll get to before you get there.

Yes, larger cities shown on state maps, but smaller population areas get left off. Along with all the secondary roads.

Edited by hipower

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13 hours ago, Chucktshoes said:

“We’ll pay for this one day”

I’m a technology junkie; love me some tech. But sure, things could go bad. Things could also go bad if we lost the power grid or the internet (deadly bad); but that’s where we are.

We assume we will always have power and cable, other than short interruptions due to weather. But I’m sure there are people trying to figure out how (both from within and outside or country) to take it out.

I try to keep the most current editions of those road maps, they pass out at the rest areas, for each state I go though in my vehicles. Simply because they are sometimes better than GPS when you know that big back-up is ahead of you on the interstate. Old tech like a CB also helps; I have one of those in the trunk. (Got me through the Nashville floods when the media wasn’t giving any useful information) :)

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One other thing that is dying out that hurts is the phone book. Remember when you grabbed it and opened it to pet stores or such? You had a list of places to call or visit. They also had maps in the front. Heck, I used to use the white pages to build Graduation or Christmas card address lists. Now Google is great, but lose the cell network and internet connections and it all goes black. 

I keep what passes for a phone book lying around. I figure is all H3ll breaks loose it will be a good guide as to where to look for certain supplies. Resourcefulness and determination will be necessary to survive long term. 

Indeed we continue to place ourselves in a more and more precarious position that is vulnerable to something like an EMP. A wide spread EMP killing off computers, GPS units, cell phones, and current vehicles would be as good as a death sentence for a large percentage of the population in a pretty short amount of time. Lack of food shipments, clean water, hvac (heat stroke and hypothermia potential), and medical services would be the leading issues. The violence that ensues will quickly become even worse.  The longer I do IT, the more nervous I get about the possibility of such an issue. I fear it would be a looong time (if ever) before we got any where close to "normal" again.  

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6 hours ago, hipower said:

Just gets cumbersome carrying a bunch of maps and difficult to open and find things on the fly in the vehicle.

 

But that was half of the fun of travel.  Stop to go over the map and see things off the beaten path.   Route 66's demise goes along with the change in travel and the rise of GPS.   People began only caring about A and B and nothing in between.  I remember traveling as a kid and we would go to the AAA office and get state level and city level maps for everything between us and our destination.  AAA would also help you plan the routes and let you know about lesser known stuff along the way.  

"It's not the destination, it's the journey," used to really be true.   Now its just pretty for people's inspirational facegrams. 

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33 minutes ago, Capbyrd said:

AAA would also help you plan the routes and let you know about lesser known stuff along the way.  

I remember Triptix fondly. Lol

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i still keep a rand mcnally road atlas in my truck.  sometimes you need old school to get when you need to go.  

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I was a map junkie for years and a very early adopter of GPS. My first GPS had to be plugged into a laptop to work, sort of. I now over use my GPS and on trips usually have at least one other mapping program running on an iPad that my wife uses to check routes and plan side trips. I also often have my iPhone on a separate mount on the dash in case we need a third opinion. Still have stacks of old atlas and maps, can bring myself to throw away a map even if it is several decades old.

I do have a car, truck & tractor that might still run after an EMP if it isn't to strong, all made in the 40s & 50s. Of course I would get lost driving them 🙂

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13 minutes ago, Jeb48 said:

I do have a car, truck & tractor that might still run after an EMP if it isn't to strong, all made in the 40s & 50s. Of course I would get lost driving them 🙂

You would be ok. Rule of thumb is anything before 1980. If the EMP was strong enough to melt wires in an origional 1940-50 car or tractor, then you probably will not be walking around to test them out. I would expect some type of nervous system damage if it was that strong.

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Of all the possible SHTF scenarios, a massive EMP scares me the most. 

In physical disasters ( tornado, flood, etc) people tend to pull together and help each other.  But if all of a sudden computers, cars, cell phones, etc all just stopped working, people would go completely nuts! :eek:

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Meh, I like my gps.  I know my way around a map, so if an emp gets my phone I'm sure I can manage.  I do have a spare, my old phone, and a garmin handheld gps in a faraday pouch.  It doesn't need the internet to access the maps, you just don't get the "you are here" dot.  It is also great to have a phone/tablet in your possession without anyone being able to access it wirelessly without your consent.  I wonder if an emp would reach the satellites and ground equipment simultaneously? 

MOSEquipment_MissionDarkness_FaradayBag_

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Paper maps are Ok to know how to read, I taught my son how to read paper maps, getting them folded up correct is a another thread. :panic::whistle:

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8 hours ago, Omega said:

Meh, I like my gps.  I know my way around a map, so if an emp gets my phone I'm sure I can manage.  I do have a spare, my old phone, and a garmin handheld gps in a faraday pouch.  It doesn't need the internet to access the maps, you just don't get the "you are here" dot.  It is also great to have a phone/tablet in your possession without anyone being able to access it wirelessly without your consent.  I wonder if an emp would reach the satellites and ground equipment simultaneously? 

MOSEquipment_MissionDarkness_FaradayBag_

The satellites may survive, especially a small EMP but cell towers will go down which will render that phone useless.  

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If an EMP hits, you won't need maps. Your world will shrink to a 10 mile or so radius. Old cars will quickly be worthless because gasoline won't be available. Everyone will be on foot, except for bicycles. 

Old yard-sale bicycles will be worth their weight in gold if the grid shutdown continues for more than a week.

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Where y’all going that you need maps after that big azz EMP hits? I’m stayin’ home. :)

 

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I think the criticism of GPS is fair but I will point out one thing that has changed in the past 20-30 years. Traffic. Back in the 80-90's it was easier to glance at a map or directions without fear of missing your exit or running into someone. Now traffic is so bad in most cities that having the hands free GPS call out directions really makes things easier and safer. I couldn't imagine trying to drive through a new city today while relying on just a map. You'd have to constantly be searching for mile markers and thus not really focusing on the road. Think about all the times your GPS tells you your exit is coming up in 1 mile and it takes half a mile before someone lets you safely change lanes. Without GPS road trips would be hell today. 

If an EMP happens I'm sure my non-functioning GPS will be the least of my worries. 

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17 minutes ago, Erik88 said:

I think the criticism of GPS is fair but I will point out one thing that has changed in the past 20-30 years. Traffic. Back in the 80-90's it was easier to glance at a map or directions without fear of missing your exit or running into someone. Now traffic is so bad in most cities that having the hands free GPS call out directions really makes things easier and safer. I couldn't imagine trying to drive through a new city today while relying on just a map. You'd have to constantly be searching for mile markers and thus not really focusing on the road. Think about all the times your GPS tells you your exit is coming up in 1 mile and it takes half a mile before someone lets you safely change lanes. Without GPS road trips would be hell today. 

If an EMP happens I'm sure my non-functioning GPS will be the least of my worries. 

I try to use my navigation app simply as a map. Input destination, study the route, put the device down.

When map apps first hit the market, I got misdirected too often relying on spoken directions, so I turn the map lady off most times. I agree that spoken directions make a good companion while driving in the city but I still try to have my route in my head so I'll know that after a few miles traveling west I'll need to turn left to a heading of 18 to get near enough to the field in order to get in the approach pattern, then I can focus on the runway. If I am trying to get to Joe's house and find myself surrounded by warehouses, that's a clue to me that something might be a little off.

On the point about searching for mile markers and not focusing on the road, if (in my opinion) you are so focused on the road that you cannot track mile markers, you are a danger to yourself and others. A constant scan of the surroundings inside and outside of your vehicle will keep you out of danger much more so than staring at the white lines and the bumper ahead of you.

Just my .02.

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33 minutes ago, beebee233 said:

On the point about searching for mile markers and not focusing on the road, if (in my opinion) you are so focused on the road that you cannot track mile markers, you are a danger to yourself and others

Wow. I told myself to not even bother posting in this thread and yet I did it anyways. Thanks for the reminder to stop wasting my time. 

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I think we all have missed some of the point of the article.   The article specifically talks about the military's ability to target has been hampered by a dependence on technology.  Forget our individual ability to travel.   When whoever our enemy of the month is decides that its actually time to rumble, they target satellites first, and suddenly, none of our artillery works.   

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32 minutes ago, Capbyrd said:

I think we all have missed some of the point of the article.   The article specifically talks about the military's ability to target has been hampered by a dependence on technology.  Forget our individual ability to travel.   When whoever our enemy of the month is decides that its actually time to rumble, they target satellites first, and suddenly, none of our artillery works.   

I do not believe that ICBMs and many types of missiles need GPS.

When North Korea (or the rouge nation of the week) decides to take out our satellites instead of committing suicide with a direct strike attempt; they would know we still have the ability to kill the decision makers and every living thing around them. And we wouldn’t have to use nukes to do it.

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For relatively compact set of maps I like the "DeLorme Atlas & Gazetteer" maps that are published by state:

https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/575993

(DeLorme was recently purchased by Garmin.) They're also sold at brick & mortar stores, Amazon, etc.

I've found them to have enough detail to be useful for both road and terrain navigation.  Not as good as a city street maps or 7.5 minute USGS topo quads, but a decent compromise.

Also, since they're bound books, there's no map folding required. 😀

 

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8 hours ago, Erik88 said:

Wow. I told myself to not even bother posting in this thread and yet I did it anyways. Thanks for the reminder to stop wasting my time. 

Glad I am able to assist you in your contribution to society by finding useful things to do with your time. Maybe you'll be able to solve some real problems now that you've regained your focus. Go get 'em tiger.

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