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Virginia Senate Bill 64

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That can't pass.

The antis will argue it requires intent; and it does. But it still can’t pass; that’s crazy.

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18 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

That can't pass.

The antis will argue it requires intent; and it does. But it still can’t pass; that’s crazy.

I hope you're right.

This is the result of electing prog/soc/comm's. They have total control of the congress & a scumbag gov. 

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I am afraid you are right, @Chucktshoes. We Americans need to know that these people mean business and they will take as much as we are willing to give up. 

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This should be watched closely. I think it’s very dangerous. I also think that this is the first of many attempts, by those on the left, to hamper any potential or perceived uprisings. This bill’s Patron is Louise Locus. She’s held this seat since 1992. She knows the ins and outs of VA politics. I suspect this bill will be passed during the next session.

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This is a key phrase here.

" intending to employ such training for use in, or in furtherance of, a civil disorder" 

No mention about training for self defense. Looks to me like its aimed at the various extreme militia groups out there. Virginia got many of those? 

But then again, if it passes, it'll mean whatever they decide it means. Abuse of this will be easy.  :mad:

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I wonder if Florida will use their law to go after antifa? Not holding my breath...

"Whoever assembles with one or more persons for the purpose of training with, practicing with, or being instructed in the use of any firearm, destructive device, or technique capable of causing injury or death to persons, intending to unlawfully employ the same for use in, or in furtherance of, a civil disorder within the United States, is guilty of a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084."

"Civil disorder, also known as civil disturbance or civil unrest, is an activity arising from a mass act of civil disobedience (such as a demonstration, riot, or strike) in which the participants become hostile toward authority, and authorities incur difficulties in maintaining public safety and order..." From Wikipedia

"The Anti-fascists of Gainesville invited college students to a recruitment fair for far-left radical groups, hosted by the Civic Media Center, which is not affiliated with UF and whose “mission is to provide community access to information and points of view that are under-reported or distorted in mainstream media.” The center's website says it specifically works with "progressive" groups to achieve its mission. https://www.campusreform.org/?ID=13767

Naw, it'll be used to go after people on the right, most likely. 

Edited by crake

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Civil Unrest would have been a great term to stick on the Patriot Militia at Lexington and Concord. 

I get there are some wackjob mouth breathers in these militias, but government is supposed to make laws that protect liberty and protect individual rights, not protect government.

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"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."
- Sigmund Freud

I found this and now truly understand the left.

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1 hour ago, E4 No More said:

I think several folks are missing the word "intending" in that bill.

I didn’t miss it, hence my comment about “intent”. But this bill is potentially bad news for firearms trainers, knife makers, etc.

So, your local firearms trainer teaches someone to shoot in a class. Let’s say a Carbine class or an AR class. That “someone” becomes the next school shooter. The prosecution finds someone in that class (wanting their 15 minutes of fame) that says “Someone” made remarks during class they found disturbing and that the trainer “should have known”.

This could also apply to comments made by someone during a knife making class.

As we know, when these incidents happen; the public wants blood. When the person responsible is dead they will take it anywhere they can find it. Douglas Haig made the mistake of manufacturing and selling ammunition without a license. He just pled guilty to selling to Stephen Paddock. He will be sentenced in Feb. But His life, as he knew it, has been destroyed. While he is hoping for probation; I’m sure his legal fees have financially destroyed him. He is facing 5 years in prison and a $250K fine. Why do I bring this up? Intent. The Feds have argued that because Paddock went and got gloves out of his car before handling the ammo; that should have been suspicious to Haig. In the case of the Virginia law they would argue “knowing or having reason to know”

The left wants the Firearms manufacturer, the seller, a trainer, and anyone else that is involved in the legal sale or training having to do with weapons used in mass murders to be held accountable.

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15 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

I didn’t miss it, hence my comment about “intent”. But this bill is potentially bad news for firearms trainers, knife makers, etc.

So, your local firearms trainer teaches someone to shoot in a class. Let’s say a Carbine class or an AR class. That “someone” becomes the next school shooter. The prosecution finds someone in that class (wanting their 15 minutes of fame) that says “Someone” made remarks during class they found disturbing and that the trainer “should have known”.

This could also apply to comments made by someone during a knife making class.

As we know, when these incidents happen; the public wants blood. When the person responsible is dead they will take it anywhere they can find it. Douglas Haig made the mistake of manufacturing and selling ammunition without a license. He just pled guilty to selling to Stephen Paddock. He will be sentenced in Feb. But His life, as he knew it, has been destroyed. While he is hoping for probation; I’m sure his legal fees have financially destroyed him. He is facing 5 years in prison and a $250K fine. Why do I bring this up? Intent. The Feds have argued that because Paddock went and got gloves out of his car before handling the ammo; that should have been suspicious to Haig. In the case of the Virginia law they would argue “knowing or having reason to know”

The left wants the Firearms manufacturer, the seller, a trainer, and anyone else that is involved in the legal sale or training having to do with weapons used in mass murders to be held accountable.

The left wants the Firearms manufacturer, the seller, a trainer, and anyone else that is involved in the legal sale or training having to do with weapons used in mass murders to be held accountable.

If that's the case Auto makers and truck builders along with drivers Education teachers could also be arrested. Trucks and cars have both been used in mass killings/Murders! I am beginning to think the people in Virginia Politics have gone brain dead when it comes to writing common sense laws.....JMHO

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5 minutes ago, bersaguy said:

If that's the case Auto makers and truck builders along with drivers Education teachers could also be arrested. Trucks and cars have both been used in mass killings/Murders! I am beginning to think the people in Virginia Politics have gone brain dead when it comes to writing common sense laws.....JMHO

They won’t mess with cars. Not only do they need them too; depending on where they live, Auto makers can decide whether or not they get reelected. Gun manufacturers…not so much.

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18 hours ago, DaveTN said:

I didn’t miss it, hence my comment about “intent”. But this bill is potentially bad news for firearms trainers, knife makers, etc.

So, your local firearms trainer teaches someone to shoot in a class. Let’s say a Carbine class or an AR class. That “someone” becomes the next school shooter. The prosecution finds someone in that class (wanting their 15 minutes of fame) that says “Someone” made remarks during class they found disturbing and that the trainer “should have known”.

This could also apply to comments made by someone during a knife making class.

As we know, when these incidents happen; the public wants blood. When the person responsible is dead they will take it anywhere they can find it. Douglas Haig made the mistake of manufacturing and selling ammunition without a license. He just pled guilty to selling to Stephen Paddock. He will be sentenced in Feb. But His life, as he knew it, has been destroyed. While he is hoping for probation; I’m sure his legal fees have financially destroyed him. He is facing 5 years in prison and a $250K fine. Why do I bring this up? Intent. The Feds have argued that because Paddock went and got gloves out of his car before handling the ammo; that should have been suspicious to Haig. In the case of the Virginia law they would argue “knowing or having reason to know”

The left wants the Firearms manufacturer, the seller, a trainer, and anyone else that is involved in the legal sale or training having to do with weapons used in mass murders to be held accountable.

"...knowing or having reason to know or intending that such training will be employed for use in, or in furtherance of, a civil disorder";

"...intending to employ such training for use in, or in furtherance of, a civil disorder."

I think there's a lot to unpack with this bill. Being that I'm not a lawyer/judge in Virginia I'm certainly no expert, but I look online for a legal definition of a civil disorder and it's pretty clear that they are talking about groups of people committing acts of violence or disorder prejudicial to public law and order. In other words, rioting. I look at it like a hate group that trains its member and sends them out to riot.

"Assembles with one or more persons with the intent of intimidating any person or group of persons by drilling, parading, or marching with any firearm, any explosive or incendiary device, or any components or combination thereof."

That part of the bill bothers me the most but indicates the intent of the bill confirming that it's aimed at rioters. How does one determine intent to intimidate? I can see the possibility of a group of legitimate 2A supporters with valid permits, (where applicable), walking around in open carry getting in a pinch.

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"The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
- Thomas Jefferson, Commonplace Book (quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria), 1774-1776

Just how did the Founding Fathers know, see into the future?

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26 minutes ago, AuEagle said:

More great news for Virginians.

CFP:https://spectator.org/gun-confiscation-comes-to-virginia/

Anyone that believes state lines change beliefs, or that this can’t happen here; is only fooling themselves. (That’s not directed at you specifically AuEagle) Many here like to jump on Illinois as a state because they are ignorant about what goes on there and who controls the state. Three counties around Chicago have 50% of the population of the state, and are packed full of voters that rely on the government. The same thing is happening in Tennessee. We need to be aware of, and care about, what is going on in our state, and with Federal laws. The Democrats by their very nature are far more likely to vote than republicans. That has to change or we will be overrun with ignorant laws, more taxation, and bigger government with more control.

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1 hour ago, DaveTN said:

Anyone that believes state lines change beliefs, or that this can’t happen here; is only fooling themselves. (That’s not directed at you specifically AuEagle) Many here like to jump on Illinois as a state because they are ignorant about what goes on there and who controls the state. Three counties around Chicago have 50% of the population of the state, and are packed full of voters that rely on the government. The same thing is happening in Tennessee. We need to be aware of, and care about, what is going on in our state, and with Federal laws. The Democrats by their very nature are far more likely to vote than republicans. That has to change or we will be overrun with ignorant laws, more taxation, and bigger government with more control.

DaveTN. I think this is already happening in our great State.  And I expect that in the next couple of election cycles, we will go from Red to Purple and finally later on Blue.  Just like in VA, the rural areas are slowly loosing their voice to the metropolitian areas of Nashville, Memphis, Chattanooga and Knoxville.  Nashville has joined Memphis and is pushing us further and further to the left.  It's just a matter of time.

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On 11/28/2019 at 9:38 PM, btq96r said:

Civil Unrest would have been a great term to stick on the Patriot Militia at Lexington and Concord. 

I get there are some wackjob mouth breathers in these militias, but government is supposed to make laws that protect liberty and protect individual rights, not protect government.

No government in history has ever done such a thing man

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