Bellevue Kroger

[Guest GlocKingTN]

Yeah Mike, where's your proof?........you've already opened up the "can o worms" now. This should get interesting.

Sorry to sound like an a** here, but please no pointing fingers guys! Please keep your posts on the subject of the thread. This thread is about carrying in a Kroger in Bellevue, not someones proof of anything! Opinions of the thread subject only, please! Thanks

[towerclimber37]

I just emailed Kroger via sermon8rs' link. here's the excerpt

Dear sir,

A story was related to me by one of my friends of how he was treated in your store on belleview rd in Nashville. I'd like to relate that story to you and then solicit your candid response.

I was in the Bellevue Kroger this morning, the one across from Harpeth Valley (Davidson County for non Nashville people). I like to open carry especially when I'm in Bellevue. And the manager of Kroger approached me and asked why I was carrying a gun in a store where alcohol is being sold, and that it was illegal. I replied that since Kroger sold alcohol for off premise consumption that I could carry in there. He asked me if that was right and I told him that it was. He accepted it and replied that someone had told him otherwise, but then he continued and asked me not to come back into the store when I was armed. He told me that I was scaring the costumers and some of his employees. I said yes sir and that it is his store.-B. Teague

I would like to know sir, if your company is going to continue to discriminate against the prodigious and growing number of law abiding citizens that choose to carry firearms and take responsibility for their own protection and if so, why don't you have signs posted on the doors of your chattels (in accordance with TN LAW) so that those of us who abide by the law can find other venues to shop at.

Sincerely,

Elliott Fitchett

I wanted to end that email a little differently...I wanted to say ...if you're going to discriminate, why not put up signs so that law abiding citizens can be elsewhere when a criminal comes in to gently explain the difference between persuasion and force to your manager,employees and customers.

but I didn't...I

I also related that I intended to post this on a statewide forum for citizens like myself so that we wouldn't be forced to endure the indignity imposed on Mr. Teague by their store manager.

I'll post the reply when I get it.

[Guest jcoyle6]

+1

as far as I am concerned

[Guest Boomhower]

Sorry to sound like an a** here, but please no pointing fingers guys! Please keep your posts on the subject of the thread. This thread is about carrying in a Kroger in Bellevue, not someones proof of anything! Opinions of the thread subject only, please! Thanks

No pointing fingers at all. I'm just razzing Mike a little.....I'll let him speak for himself if he wishes to do so.

[DaveTN]

Don’t knock the open carry guys.

When the armed bad guys arrive on the scene the OC guys will get the attention they desperately seek giving the concealed carry guys extra time to take control of the situation.

[towerclimber37]

hmhmhm if you think that dave, you'd be late on the draw..I know a fella that can draw and fire 3 rounds in...oh about half a second..and hit what he aims at!

and he's gettin slow in his old age.

[DaveTN]

hmhmhm if you think that dave, you'd be late on the draw..I know a fella that can draw and fire 3 rounds in...oh about half a second..and hit what he aims at!

and he's gettin slow in his old age.

You know Jerry Miculek?

[molonlabetn]

...snip...I firmly believe here in Knoxville open carrying is going to result in a slam to the ground and some sort of criminal charge. No way would I OC. Heck you get arrested for wearing a holster openly here. Guns do not matter in it.

I've OCed nearly a half-dozen times in some VERY public places in Knoxville, including the mall, and in one instance walked right in front of one of Knoxville's finest, making eye contact (smile, nod, etc...). He didn't say anything, much less slam me into the ground. Now, there might be some loose cannons out there, but in TN, OC is not an arrestable offense... so they should be handled the same as would any law-enforcement with misconduct.

It's just as much your duty to know the law, and stand up for yourself by it, as it is the police officers'... and since it's our asses on the line, I'd suggest knowing what is reasonable and what is a breach of your rights, so that if one of us does get slammed into the ground, we don't think that we somehow deserved it and fail to correct the misapplication of force by the LEOs.

Stories about harassment while OCing tend to get a bit exaggerated... usually there's something else behind the story, if it goes down badly. Most LEOs are cognizant of the law, and do their best to abide by it.

[Marswolf]

I'll throw in my two cents here.

I think we need to be careful about open carry. I do it most of the time, but I'm dressed like someone who should be packing a gun. My wife, who is definitely not anti-gun, thinks that most people carrying guns are doing it from some misplaced redneck macho thing. Don't take that lightly. This is a lady who grew up hunting, was on the high school rifle team and has LE training. If this is her perception, how does Jill, average citizen, feel about seeing someone carrying a gun?

Tennessee's original carry permit was a concealed permit. This was changed to just being a carry permit (open carry allowed) because of harassment from a couple of police chiefs/sheriffs who would arrest you if there was even a hint of a gun showing.

Businesses don't want customers scaring away other customers. I imagine most companies wouldn't care if you conceal carry but really don't want you flashing a gun in their stores.

If open carry gets to be a problem, as they see it, I suspect we will see legislation proposed to restrict our "right" to open carry.

[The Rabbi]

I'll throw in my two cents here.

If open carry gets to be a problem, as they see it, I suspect we will see legislation proposed to restrict our "right" to open carry.

Bingo! We have a winner.

All it will take is for some scuffle or some misunderstanding and the whole OC thing will be in jeopardy and we will be back in TX.

[molonlabetn]

If gun ownership gets to be a problem, as they see it, it is just as likely for them to enact legislation to restrict our 'right' to own guns...

Not a good reason to avoid gun ownership, and likewise not a good reason to put down doing so openly.

Acceptance of legitimate gun ownership/carry is not a matter of degree, either we have that right, or we don't. I agree that we should promote doing so responsibly... but responsibility cannot be legislated.

[The Rabbi]

A very specious comparison that doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

[molonlabetn]

A very specious comparison that doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Please explain?

It's a very similar argument as saying that, although we have a right to 'free speech', it is not illegal or irresponsible to do so in public, regardless of how it makes other people 'feel'.

Do you not recognize that there is an element who wishes to take away the right to gun ownership altogether, not just carry or open-carry?

[Guest Hyaloid]

I'll throw in my two cents here.

I think we need to be careful about open carry. I do it most of the time, but I'm dressed like someone who should be packing a gun. My wife, who is definitely not anti-gun, thinks that most people carrying guns are doing it from some misplaced redneck macho thing. Don't take that lightly. This is a lady who grew up hunting, was on the high school rifle team and has LE training. If this is her perception, how does Jill, average citizen, feel about seeing someone carrying a gun?

Tennessee's original carry permit was a concealed permit. This was changed to just being a carry permit (open carry allowed) because of harassment from a couple of police chiefs/sheriffs who would arrest you if there was even a hint of a gun showing.

Businesses don't want customers scaring away other customers. I imagine most companies wouldn't care if you conceal carry but really don't want you flashing a gun in their stores.

If open carry gets to be a problem, as they see it, I suspect we will see legislation proposed to restrict our "right" to open carry.

Marswolf,

You know I respect your opinion greatly. However, exercising our rights should not be precluded upon how we look ("I'm dressed like someone who should be packing a gun") or on other's perception of us when we DO decide to lawfully exercise our rights (your wife assuming I am a "macho redneck"... which couldn't be further from the truth).

The former hints at "it's ok for me, but not for you" elitism, which I can fairly certainly say you don't hold as an opinion, but it's just how it comes across TO ME. I have no doubt that appearance affects how people view OC, and have said as much in other threads. However, I don't feel that because someone doesn't LOOK like they should have a gun, is grounds for them to be harrassed or to not exercise their rights for fear of that harrassment.

In your estimation, would your wife feel that way if she saw doctors, lawyers, grocery clerks, and other everyday normal people OCing a firearm just going about their daily activities? I think that perception would change rapidly, but I don't know your wife .

I wasn't here when TN's permit was concealed only. But, it seems to me that the legislators saw fit to allow OC following some abuses of power... serves them right, let them sleep in the bed they made. They could have legislated for the accidental exposure of a carry weapon, but they didn't. It is what it is, not what it was.

Anyhow, I don't OC everyday or all of the time. But, I do OC frequently when the situation dictates.

I do think there is a valid point that the legislature can easily UNDO the changes they have made, and make OC illegal. But, they can legislate all sorts of things that I have a right to do, and fear of impending legislative changes shouldn't intimidate me into NOT practicing the rights I have.

[Marswolf]

Hyaloid, I don't disagree with you in principle. If respected community leaders would OC, it might open up the door to more people doing it without concern. But that is not going to happen.

Let me ask you a simple question. If you see someone who is dressed like a street gang banger and you see he has a pistol, are you going to assume he has a permit and is legal with it? That's how a lot of soccer moms feel about us wandering through Wal-Mart with a gun on our side.

I'm fond of saying that we have to deal with the situation as it is rather than as it should be. Right now, the reality is that OC does frighten a lot of people and if we have enough of that, the legislature will change the policy so we can not freely OC. It's just a matter of how long before they do it. I think that's a step backward and I don't want to see that happen.

[The Rabbi]

Please explain?

It's a very similar argument as saying that, although we have a right to 'free speech', it is not illegal or irresponsible to do so in public, regardless of how it makes other people 'feel'.

Do you not recognize that there is an element who wishes to take away the right to gun ownership altogether, not just carry or open-carry?

Well, yeah. Actually it is.

Try going into North Nashville dressed in a white sheet and handing out Klan literature and see where "right to free speech" will get you. It is called hate speech and is not protected.

Back to your comparison: There are 250,000+ permit holders in a state of 7M people. That's 250k voters. The legislature will not easily revoke the program in its entirety.

But the number of people who OC is miniscule. And the number of people who care about it at all is tiny.

I personally don't care about. The only reason I would support it at all is to avoid the abuse mentioned in an earlier post. If there were some other way to guarantee that wouldnt happen (and there isn't) I wouldn't care at all about allowing OC.

You are trying to run a "slippery slope" argument and it won't work.

[molonlabetn]

Well, yeah. Actually it is.

Try going into North Nashville dressed in a white sheet and handing out Klan literature and see where "right to free speech" will get you. It is called hate speech and is not protected.

Back to your comparison: There are 250,000+ permit holders in a state of 7M people. That's 250k voters. The legislature will not easily revoke the program in its entirety.

But the number of people who OC is miniscule. And the number of people who care about it at all is tiny.

I personally don't care about. The only reason I would support it at all is to avoid the abuse mentioned in an earlier post. If there were some other way to guarantee that wouldnt happen (and there isn't) I wouldn't care at all about allowing OC.

You are trying to run a "slippery slope" argument and it won't work.

And comparing OC to the KKK will?

Okay, well lets bring it closer to home for you... Public demonstration of some religions which are in the minority, makes some people 'uncomfortable'. Is that a good reason to single a particular religion out and prohibit their public observance?

OC is certainly not a religion, but it is a small portion of the whole issue of gun-rights... just like Judaism, Hinduism, etc are all individual religions which are (supposedly) uniformly protected from government interference.

Pick your Amendment, but the prohibition against interference is clear... Nitpicking about how some individuals choose to exercise their rights, if they are different than yours, is less than constructive. I would hope that gun-owners could stand together on this.

[molonlabetn]

...snip...Frankly, I cannot help but wonder if at some base level the people who advocate open carry are just looking for a fight with the establishment. And by that I mean looking to change the way things are through belligerence rather than diplomacy. I'd rather spend my time and energy trying to change laws than by jousting with windmills. Really, what good does it do to piss off the manager at Kroger and give him a sour opinion of gun owners when all he'll do in turn is vote down pro-gun laws the next time the polls are open?

A local church has this slogan on their billboard this week: What we find often depends on what we go looking for.

It's worth considering.

Contesting the 'establishment' is only irresponsible if the status-quo of the establishment is acceptable. It is not.

Diplomacy is desired, all I want is to be able to abide by the law without harassment. Indeed, responsibility and positive influence are the most important parts of exercising any right... but I have no responsibility to pander to ignorant bias.

[Guest Hyaloid]

Would I feel comfortable with a "gang banger" type OCing on his or her hip? Actually, believe it or not, I would. At least I KNOW they have a gun. The Libertarian in me says, if he isn't bothering me, he can do what he wants with no attention from me. The daddy in me says, "watch his with caution, but no need to confront". But, to be fair, I'd do that with any person, especially man, I don't know who may have the immediate ability to do harm to me or my family.

That is me personally. Would I have a problem with a LEO asking myself or the gang banger for a permit? Well, on a philosophical level, yes... but practically, no! I'd be as polite and easy going as I can be and offer up my ID. should I have to do that? IMHO, nope, but I am not there to rock the boat, contrary to the opinion of many fellow gun owners.

I will concede that there is a portion of OCing that is likely activist in nature, whether we want there to be or not. It is for this reason that many times I DON'T OC, because I don't feel like being a spokesperson or martyr for the 2nd A. For example, if I am going to the grocery store with my 2 year old, I will probably CC. She is not old enough to understand, god forbid, if I DID run into the overaggressive LEO and was forced to undergo a detention or arrest.

I will say that I strongly disagree with strongarm tactics emplyed by SOME of the more activist minded OCers. I keep everything polite, professional, and matter of fact. Letters to managers and such should NEVER contain profanity or implied threats. I think, just as we tell posted properties when we CC, that telling them your side of the story and the fact that they have lost your business can be worthwhile, but do it in a relatively neutral (diplomatic ) tone.

In short, too late for that I know, I just want to be left alone when I am commiting no crime, and not perpetrating any harm upon my fellow man. If I pull my firearm and start waving it about and threatening people, by all means put me down, until then just leave me alone!

I don't understand the logic of not exercising rights, any rights, for the fear of losing them. I can understnd apprehension of a negative encounter with the public and/or LEOs, but to me the fact that there are motivating factors to make us feel apprehensive is the problem, not the fact that we want to wear a firearm out in the open.

IRT Rabbi:

In my small hometown in Florida, there were numerous KKK "membership/information" drives. They were on public streets, a stones throw away from the county courthouse. The 1st A, much like the 2nd, applies to everyone, even if John Q. Public doesn't like how you exercise it. I can see the anaolgy, but I will say that I hope you don't hold your fellow firearm lovers in the same regard as you do the KKK.

[saintsfanbrian]

The only speech not protected is that which incites a riot. I can stand around all day singing white pride songs in the middle of downtown Memphis as long as I fill out the proper paperwork and get the right permits, there ain't a dang thing anyone can do about it. That is the way it should be. Screaming "FIRE" in a crowded theater is only done for mischievous reasons and is illegal.

Carrying my glock with the handle sticking out of my waist band in an IWB holster is not illegal and I have done it a time or two. I will continue to as long as the summer remains as hot as it is.

[DaveTN]

Having a carry permit and carrying whether it be open or concealed is not a right in the state of Tennessee. It is a privilege given you by your state legislators and if it becomes a problem; they will deal with it.

[Guest Hyaloid]

Having a carry permit and carrying whether it be open or concealed is not a right in the state of Tennessee. It is a privilege given you by your state legislators and if it becomes a problem; they will deal with it.

Rights don't spring forth from legislature. They exist whether or not they are recognized or practiced.

*see quote*

[The Rabbi]

Having a carry permit and carrying whether it be open or concealed is not a right in the state of Tennessee. It is a privilege given you by your state legislators and if it becomes a problem; they will deal with it.

The state certainly sees it that way, despite the Tn constitution. You are sadly right.

[The Rabbi]

Rights don't spring forth from legislature. They exist whether or not they are recognized or practiced.

*see quote*

I've had this argument before.

Rights are enacted and the result of positive activity. There is no such thing as a "natural right". No one has ever proved the existence of one, where it comes from, or what they consist of.

I know the Founders believed in them (or said they did anyway). That doesn't make it so.

You cannot point to any meaningful difference between a right that isn't enforced and one that doesn't exist.

[molonlabetn]

If there is no such thing as a human right, a right to life for example, then why are genocide, plague, slavery and famine such tragedies?

People created in the image of God don't all have an equal claim to existence? It certainly cannot be proven that we don't.