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Shay VanVlymen

Women in training

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First off Id like to state that I served from 89-93 in the USAF and the only firearms training I received was qualifying with an M16....Ive got my National Defense ribbon and I don't think folks look "silly" for wanting to train for whatever personal reasons they might have. I was no GI Joe in the Military, so does it make me a Marine or Army "wannabee" for wanting to learn new things now?

Are people who compete in IDPA wannabees?

Are the cowboy shooters?(OK bad example :D)

I guess what I'm getting at is people do things for many different reasons, who are we to judge them?

We are all here at TGO cause of our love of firearms. Some of us have 2 guns, some 200, some are looking to get their first. All any of us can do is try and be a good member of the shooting community, and try and recruit as many non-shooters(both male and female) so we can ensure another 200+ years of freedom.

I tell ya what.....I wasn't really thinking about taking one of Yeager's classes, but after all of the heehaw on this post, it got me to thinkin, why the hell not do it 1 time just for the experience. Ill give you guys a report after I take the class.

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One thing about women that is going on is that they are single longer (either divorced or never married because of whatever reason, like school) that are on their own and want to protect themselves, they are educated, they are professionals, they are laborers they are actively in the workforce and feel that they need to take care of themselves, because no one else is there to do it.

They see these training classes and schools online, in forums or where ever and it is a bunch of guys and they think one thing, a bunch of men with super high testosterone levels, playing GI Joe, shooting and blowing up things. (Which I enjoy by the way!) I've even seen some pictures of guys in their full tactical gear, guns and flipping the bird to the camera. Don't get me wrong, I've got some pictures around with my middle finger in the air, but if you are promoting a class, group and/or school, this is not what a woman wants to see. This is a turn off.

Look at the workout facility businesses. For years, mostly men, would be at the gym working out. The gyms needed to find out why they didn't have women. What they found was a bunch of muscle bound, super high testosterone meat heads running around power lifting. Well, they had to market to women, get women instructors, have classes run by women, have dress codes were the average, normal woman would look ok and there even some work out facilities that are women only.

When I was looking to get back into handguns, I would go to a gun store and feel unwelcome because of the guys inside. If a woman were to walk in, the first thing you would expect to here are some cat calls, a whistle or two and some old guy coming up to her saying "hey little lady, the make up store is one door down" or something like that. Not that this would really happen in todays world, but I wouldn't be surprised.

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Excellent comparison db! That pretty much sums it up...

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I'm gonna weigh in on this one a bit. First, let's address the simple fact. More guys are into firearms and training than women. The military and police are made up of mainly men. Training schools, ranges, and gun shops are staffed by mainly men. I can't tell you how many times I have seen fellow employees at my range openly discuss the "right gun" for "my wife", right in front of said wife. Look bozo the gun is for her, not for you. She might want a revolver, she might want a 5" Kimber .45. Shut up and let her decide.

I am personally quite sick of Rambozos and Tacti-cool ass-hats thinking they know it all. Tell ya what genius, get your finger off the trigger of the gun you got pointed at my chest that you didn't bother to clear after I handed it to you, then we'll talk about the .38 for the little lady that can probably shoot better than you anyway.

When training starts becoming more geared toward both sexes more women will sign up. I have actually told men to go away while I talk with their wives and girlfriends at the range, because they just get in the way. Needless to say I have quite a few women sign up for our training.

Now as far as training such as Tactical Response, Blackwater, Valhalla, etc I think it serves a purpose, but the line can be blurred. I despise people who take military grade training, buy tactical gear and think they are the real "stuff". No, you're not you're a wannabe who was to scared to sign the dotted line. Exceptions to the rule? Of course, but the majority are trying to be something they aren't.

Now, people that take the training for what it is and don't buy into all the tactical crap are usually the folks I like. Sure they might show up in some 5.11 pants and a vest, but underneath they only have a Comp-Tac holster, a gun, and a few extra mags. Maybe a knife and a Surefire. Train with what you will carry. I think further training is fine, but don't come to me acting like you are combat hardened because you took Tactical Response's Fighting pistol course, then went back to your cubicle on Monday. Shed some blood, watch a few of your friends die, and come back home to listen to a bunch of liberals moan about the war, then maybe I'll turn a blind eye to your drop-leg holster and Blackhawk gear.

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Sss tactical, I agree with your post.

Shay let me try this one more time, because I think my comments from my earlier post were not as clear as I would have liked them to be. How about this, you guys are in bussiness for two reasons I assume one being to make money and two being to improve your students abilities. So if you want to get women envolved in your programs design a marketing plan that will peek there interest. Talk to womens groups, whatever. I'm not a genius but hey if you want a certain segment of your population to come to the party than you have to show them somthing that will make them want to come.

Once again I meant no disrespect to you or your school or your students, I was mearly giving you an honest opinion as to why women do not train or choose to train

Jackdog

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Ya, us poor lowly civilians have no right do anything we might enjoy if it means ticking off a combat-hardened veteran.

I'm not at all what you would call a gung-ho, jarhead wannabe(What is this, high school all over?), but I could see some of the tactical training being fun.

Some of us are not blessed with great eyesight or knees that have indestructible ACLs....things that may disqualify us from official service.

Am I scared? Of what, death?

No,

Do I want to die?

NO.

Death is inevitable and I know that I'm covered when that times comes.

I belive in destiny, but everyone also has a choice. Some would say that they don't carry 'cause 'When it's my time, it's my time' and I agree BUT, you also have the choice of stepping off a 100-story building or not.

I may not be combat-hardened, but I've seen it. My father was in Veitnam FFS and he was a damned fine soldier, but he wasn't prejudiced.

Hmmmm....

Maybe we should do away with those Petty Driving Experience whatever(Not a nascar fan, BTW)

Oh and don't take French if you've never been to France.

Scuba diving?!!....you're not a SEAL, GTFO!!!

"This is our stuff and we are not sharing!!!" :D

~Archi

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I think you misunderstand me Archimedes. I'm not talking about people who have other options than the military or simply choose to serve in another way. The people I dislike are the people who think because they buy tactical gear and take tactical training this somehow certifies them as "combat hardened".

Training is great and I advise anyone who carries a gun seek professional training on some level. Training can also be alot of fun! Good training should be fun at times.

My point is there are those who take training and know who they are and who they were and don't try to be something they aren't. To change the quote just a bit, "The tactical boots don't make the man." :D

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SSSTactical, that's what I was trying to say. :D

No one is saying civilians shouldn't take training classes. Just check out the school thoroughly. There is nothing wrong with taking military-type training classes for fun or camaraderie. It you want to go blow a few hundred bucks and burn some powder, why not? It would probably help on your team paintball sports and it's better than lots of other pastimes.

Just don't come out of a class and try to tell me your are tacti-cool and will be just as good as any soldier or Marine at holding off the hordes of ATF agents trying to take your guns.

Imagination is wonderful. But the guys in uniform know that when they train, it's training they may actually use.

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going back to the original question, I think db hit the bullseye.

Great post DB thanks for conveying my thoughts with your clarity

Jackdog

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Agreed.

-Len

going back to the original question, I think db hit the bullseye.

Great post DB thanks for conveying my thoughts with your clarity

Jackdog

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Wow, what a can of worms that was opened with a good question!:cool:

Marswwolf touched on the point that women may be looking for "women only" classes. Our school has noticed a dramatic rise in women showing up in not only our Basic Pistol and Carry Permit classes but our defensive handgunning classes as well. It seems that everytime there is a high profile crime resulting in an innocent's death we have more women sign up for classes. As a result my wife who is also an instructor is in the process of developing "women only" classes for the women out there in our market that do not want to "compete" with their husbands or boyfriends or other males in a mixed class.

Currently in our standard mixed classes, whenever I have husband/wife, boyfriend/girlfriend, father/daughter or even brother & sister pairs in classes the first thing I do is split them up. The men don't feel a need to posture or display and the women aren't distracted by their male partner's extemporaneous and often poor coaching. In fact, particularly in basic classes I find that the women typically out score their male partners on both written tests and practical shooting and qualifying exercises (this seems to work best for any partnership that comes into class. The scores prove it). Why? IMHO it's generally because the women didn't learn their shooting skills from Kelly's Heroes, Full Metal Jacket, Miami Vice or Law and Order as the men did. They are learning it for the first time from me. In other words, they come into class with no preconceived notions as to what is right and wrong as far as technique is concerned. Their minds are open and they are ready to learn. I don't have to try to get them to un-learn anything.

Women have rightfully determined that they don't need to wait on a man to defend them and we feel that by offering "women only" classes we can best entice and best serve the women in our community who would otherwise forgo firearms training and therefore not have the option of safely, efficiently and effectively employing a firearm in their defense.

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I agree with and have had similar experiences as Phantom6. 9 times out of 10, the top score in the class (both written exam and practical shooting) will be a woman. We also offer women-only classes, but have generally seen more women enroll in the co-ed classes. The increased interest women have shown in self defense education is is good for the industry, for society, and for the shooting sports in general for so many reasons. We should do all we can to encourage this trend.

A good thread.

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Speaking of women in training, Barrett's Long Range Basics course was recently offered to women only and will be on TV tonight. Marswolf, they are not all military, so you may be a little upset if you watch it, but here is the link: http://www.shootinggallerytv.com/

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Speaking of women in training, Barrett's Long Range Basics course was recently offered to women only and will be on TV tonight. Marswolf, they are not all military, so you may be a little upset if you watch it, but here is the link: http://www.shootinggallerytv.com/

Heh heh. It doesn't upset me to see non-military folks (men or women) shoot whatever guns they like, military or "civilian" arms. I'm all for it. I just don't want them to leave the range thinking they are magically the equivalent of 3rd Special Ops. :cool:

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Heh heh. It doesn't upset me to see non-military folks (men or women) shoot whatever guns they like, military or "civilian" arms. I'm all for it. I just don't want them to leave the range thinking they are magically the equivalent of 3rd Special Ops. :D

Hmm...:D Does that mean you don't want me to go the range with my face all painted and shooting from the tops of trees like I see the Special Ops guys do it in the movies? I don't want to make anyone feel uncomfortable.

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Appearance is not an indication of effectiveness or proficiency, unless the sole purpose is merely to have a certain appearance.

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Hmm...:D Does that mean you don't want me to go the range with my face all painted and shooting from the tops of trees like I see the Special Ops guys do it in the movies? I don't want to make anyone feel uncomfortable.

If you can pull it off...go for it. :D

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I am currently serving in the Navy and have 'ZERO' combat or even marksmanship training from the Navy. I can fix an F-18, but the the Navy doesn't deem it necessary for me to know how to fight. The only recourse I have is civillian training.

Personally, I am looking to Tactical Response to fulfill some of that training. As for women and training, I really can't offer an educated opinion. My wife is on the same page as I am regarding training.

Jason

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Personally, I am looking to Tactical Response to fulfill some of that training. As for women and training, I really can't offer an educated opinion. My wife is on the same page as I am regarding training.

Jason

I'm in the same boat. My wife likes to train and practice.

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I am currently serving in the Navy and have 'ZERO' combat or even marksmanship training from the Navy. I can fix an F-18, but the the Navy doesn't deem it necessary for me to know how to fight.

Jason

That happens to Air Force people to a degree too. Really bad for them in some situations. There have been some nasty surprises on some "safe" air bases.

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What are you trying to say, Mars?

Actually, since all AF members are on mobility stand by, you would think they would require more time on the range and in training scenario's for them. I guess that is what training facilities are for though.

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I guess that is what training facilities are for though.

:D:D

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Speaking of women and Barretts, one of my clients is a woman owned company called White Horse Research and Development that uses a Barrett .50 cal in it's XCS-50 product demonstrations for a revolutionary ballistic security product the company markets. Check out the video at http://www.whitehorserd.com/products.htm . Scroll down to the XCS-50 for the Barrett shots. In other shoots we have put 14 rounds of .50 cal. armor piercing incendiary projectiles into a 7 inch target with no degradation of the material, no penetration and no debris being blown out the back.

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I particularly like the porn film music in the background. :up:

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Pretty impressive material, what is the weight per square ft.

I really need to shoot a Barrett.

Jackdog

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