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luvmyberetta

Where to Find 45 Super

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I'm looking for some 45 Super ammunition for when I'm in bear country and haven't found any local shops that sell it. Does anyone know of any stores in the Knoxville/ Campbell Co./ Fentress Co. area that sells it? I know I can order it online & I don't mind that, but I wanted to check on buying from a GS first. My LGS is too unreliable to even check on it. I asked my LGS about ordering some & they told me there was no such thing as 45 Super...WTF?!? Give me a shout if anyone has spotted any for sale in a GS. Thanks.

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I've heard of Super 38 but not 45. Do you mean 45 Winchester Magnum or .45acp +P???

I'm at a loss brother. :wacko:

What gun do you plan on using? That would help.

Edited by Caster

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Load 45 acp to super levels. You need to slowly work up to make sure the cases as well as the platform will hold the extra pressures.

Dimensionally they are identical. I have known people to trim 308 brass and use them because of the thicker webbing.

OP, you do know that a standard 1911 needs some upgrades to use Super ammunition? Forgive me if that upsets you but I have also read accounts of people shooting Super ammo in 45ACP guns. Some work and some were catastrophes.

I do know of a couple of factory 45 ACP guns that will fire Super just fine but I won't tell, at least not on a public forum.

Dolomite

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I've heard of Super 38 but not 45. Do you mean 45 Winchester Magnum or .45acp +P???

I'm at a loss brother. :wacko:

What gun do you plan on using? That would help.

45 Super falls right between those. It's actually a 45acp +P+, but has a much thicker case and higher pressure. You cannot use a standard 45acp case. They won't come close to handling the pressure without deforming or worse. I would never shoot 45 Super from a 1911 because the case isn't fully supported have been known to blow them apart. Like Dolomite said, a 1911 & most pistols for that matter won't handle it without modifications. I'm using a HK USP 45, which was designed to shoot 45 Super from the factory so no worrys there. I'm just having a hard time locating them in a store. Here's a link that tells more about the round... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_Super

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Okay.

Now see, I've heard of a .451 Detonics. Had you said it was based on that I wouldn't have been so confused.

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WTH Caster, you have heard of an absolute oddball like the. 451detonics but not the .45super? Its practically mainstream Lol

I doubt you will find much .45super on shelves, its mostly a reloaders cartridge.

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Ah .45 Super. A fantastic round. Starline will most likely be back-ordered until the end of time.

As for using .308 brass. It's completely plausible, however, it's a huge PITA. You basically have to cut and ream to size. Will definitely take a lot of patience with that one. That, and a lot of brass.

If you are willing to pay the man, Buffalo Bore always seems to have some:

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=15

Edited by SpicyMchaggis

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SpicyMchaggis, that's what I'll probably end up doing if I don't find it in a store soon. I don't reload and don't plan on shooting 1,000 rounds of it. I just wanted to pick up a few boxes to get a good feel for it & to keep some on hand. I've been looking at Buffalo Bore's 185 & 200 gr in 45 Super. Speer Gold Dot used to make it, but I think it's been discontinued. Buffalo Bore seems to be the ony brand making it right now.

Edited by luvmyberetta

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The only time I've ever shot a .45 Super was with BB 185JHP. It was a riot act. Shame it's so hard to get a hold of. I had a friend who had all of the "Super" calibers. .38 Super being one of my all time favorites.

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I guess I'm confused. Springfield Armory made a version of their longslide which had a barrel with 12 ports in it that was actually called a .45 Super. Ace Custom also built some specially modified Glock G-20 pistols and some 1911 pistols that they modified that were rated for .45 Super. I believe he told me those guns had special recoil springs and ported barrels. Are you sure H&K rated their .45 for .45 Super? The problem with doing something like that is the liability. There are no SAAMI specs for the .45 Super, so exactly how do you know for sure a load is safe? I bought some .45 Super Starline brass but after a little investigation, I decided I will simply use it for .45 +P loads. There is very little load data that I have been able to find for this cartridge. If I need a bear round I will use my customized Stainless Super Blackhawk with Bisley hammer, trigger & gripframe loaded with LBT design cast bullets weighing 325 grains. These loads will penetrate 12 inches of seasoned oak. The .45 Super can't hold a candle to that.

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I guess I'm confused. Springfield Armory made a version of their longslide which had a barrel with 12 ports in it that was actually called a .45 Super. Ace Custom also built some specially modified Glock G-20 pistols and some 1911 pistols that they modified that were rated for .45 Super. I believe he told me those guns had special recoil springs and ported barrels. Are you sure H&K rated their .45 for .45 Super?

Absolutely! When you hear people talk about H&K's being heavy duty, they're not exagerating. The HK USP 45, HK45, & the Springfield you mentioned were designed to handle 45 Super right out of the box. Other pistols can be modified to shoot it, but can't do it right out of the box. Unlike other manufacturers, H&K states there's no limit to the amount of +P the USP 45 can shoot & it can handle 45 Super without the need for extra porting. H&K almost overbuilds their pistols right from the factory, but that's part of why thy're so expensive. The USP has a dual recoil spring system that was designed specifically to shoot hot +P ammo. 45 Super will increase wear on parts, but it can take thousands of rounds before springs need replacing. Shooting 45acp through the USP 45 feels like a strong 9mm thanks to the recoil design.

Edited by luvmyberetta

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The .45 Super can't hold a candle to that.

What kind of energy does it have? Most 44 Magnums top out at around +/- 1200lbft. I only bring that up because .45 Super runs at about +/- 700lbft and is relatively screaming at 1200fps. Not exactly a scientific comparison, but the 45S is no slouch. Not exactly my first choice, but not a bad one.

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Absolutely! When you hear people talk about H&K's being heavy duty, they're not exagerating. The HK USP 45, HK45, & the Springfield you mentioned were designed to handle 45 Super right out of the box. Other pistols can be modified to shoot it, but can't do it right out of the box. Unlike other manufacturers, H&K states there's no limit to the amount of +P the USP 45 can shoot & it can handle 45 Super without the need for extra porting. The USP has a dual recoil spring system that was designed specifically to shoot hot +P ammo. 45 Super will increase wear on parts, but it can take thousands of rounds before springs need replacing. Shooting 45acp through the USP 45 feels like a strong 9mm thanks to the recoil design.

It's not that cut and dry. The USP is capable of shooting 45 Super, but isn't recommended. While it may be able to withstand the increased chamber pressure, you will undoubtedly maul brass and wear the throat. There are a handful of guns that were capable of shooting 45 Super, notably, the SW 4506 and Ruger 345. Both, in my opinion, are trash cans. But damn beefy ones. In reality, it's never recommended to put ammunition through a gun it isn't chambered for.

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I don't know as I haven't shot it through a chrono. I have loaded it with AA #9. The recoil is hard on wrists and elbows. This round isn't far below .454 Cassull. Then again I have loaded in .45 colt cases in the past using .45 caliber 325 grain LBT designed bullets in a Colt Anaconda in .45 long colt. Those rounds would punch a hole in a steel fence post that looked like they had been done with a punch press.

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Comparing it to a .454 Cassull is a bit optimistic, You're probably about 500lbft of energy below that. My 300gr XTP's came out at 1680fps delivering an absolutely lethal 1830lbft. The hottest 44 Magnums I've ever loaded came in at about 1300fps and 1200lbft with a 300gr flat nose. There is a relatively large divide from 44M to 454C. A more apt comparison would be to the .480 Ruger in terms of energy. That's not a dig on your 44M in any way. When we get into discussions about power levels like these, it really becomes a "I can shoot through two trees, Oh yeah? I can shoot through THREE trees!" type of deal. Which, is fun sometimes.

Edited by SpicyMchaggis

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You are forgetting something. A properly hardened cast bullet can be pushed harder than a jacketed one without raising chamber pressures as it has less friction passing down the barrel. About 15 years ago I had many conversations with John Linebaugh and Ross Seifried about these heavy loads. I have some load data I got from Linebaugh that I won't share that is safe in .45 long colt brass in certain guns. It is safe in a stock Ruger Bisley. John carefully built up loads of increasing strength and had them tested in a pressure barrel. He then literally fastened a single action Ruger in a way that allowed him to fire it while standing behind a shield and pulling a cord. He kept firing heavier and heavier loads to learn the strength of the gun. He finally cracked a cylinder at around 50,000 p.s.i. Now let's stop and consider the fact that when John builds a custom bisley for a customer, he replaces the stock 6 shot cylinder with an oversize 5 shot cylinder. Using .45 long colt brass from Federal or cut down .454 Cassull brass some very stout loads can be fired in a stock Ruger. This is best done on the bisley frame not the blackhawk frame. It is very easy to achieve 1,400 f.p.s. with Federal .45 long colt brass and 325 grain LBT bullets that have been properly hardened in a Colt Anaconda or Ruger Bisley. You can then also download using Keith semi-wadcutter bullets for plinking in these guns. I really wish I had kept that Anaconda. I actually traded it on a Raging Bull that I didn't keep long. It was simply too big. The Anaconda was just the right size and very strongly built.

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Just want to say welcome to the board David Nowlin.

Obviously you have a lot of knowledge to share as well.

I will jump back in on this thread later with my input on the topic.

Dolomite

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Good input, but keep in mind this is a SD pistol, not a hunting pistol so it's not going to have the same performance as a .44, .454, etc... I used to have a Super Redhawk .44 Mag. w/9.5" barrel, but traded it because it was fun, but not practical for me. The USP 45 is. It has a 4.4" barrel and holds 12 rounds, which is pretty good for a .45 IMO. I can carry it daily if wanted and it has the ability to shoot the 45 Super for when I'm in black bear country. The Buffalo Bore 45 Super is available in JHP, flat nose FMJ, & hard cast. Since the only bears around are black bears & not grizzly's the flat nose FMJ will probably be efficient enough to get good penetration although I'd rather avoid a bear attack to begin with. Buffalo Bore has a 185 gr round that has a velocity of around 1,300 fps and 700ft lbs of force which isn't bad especially when you consider the pistol can hold 12 rounds of it. They also have 200 & 230 gr round with 1,200 & 1,100 fps and 620-640 ft lbs...

That brings me to another question. Would it be ideal to go with a 185 gr with higher velocity rated at more ft lbs of force or a slower moving 230 gr round? Here's what Buffalo Bore has available in the 45 Super... http://www.buffalobore.com/ammo/.45-super-15-1.html Thanks guys.

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You are forgetting something. A properly hardened cast bullet can be pushed harder than a jacketed one without raising chamber pressures as it has less friction passing down the barrel.

Ah hard cast bullets. Effectively acts like a rocket powered dart. I have seen a few frame-splitters over the years.

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When casting using wheel weights only I drop them in water to harden them. They come out at 28-30 brinnel. Copper generally runs 35 sp my cast bullets are really close to jacketed.

Dolomite

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sportsman's warehouse carries buffalo bore and often in a randomized mix of strange calibers alongside the mainstream stuff. I will look next time I am over there. A bit of a drive for you, though, unless you guys have one as well (probably not?).

Making brass is something I think every reloader should do once. After which you appreciate what you can get free or easily a heck of a lot more. If you end up going that route, a plumber's tube cutter and a case trimmer will get you there. I doubt you *have* to ream the inside of the case down, you can probably force the bullets in and if it shaves them slightly, so be it. You could probably go from a bag of 308 to a box of 50 rounds in one good day's work, and if you recover the brass, it should last you quite a few uses.

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sportsman's warehouse carries buffalo bore and often in a randomized mix of strange calibers alongside the mainstream stuff. I will look next time I am over there. A bit of a drive for you, though, unless you guys have one as well (probably not?).

Making brass is something I think every reloader should do once. After which you appreciate what you can get free or easily a heck of a lot more. If you end up going that route, a plumber's tube cutter and a case trimmer will get you there. I doubt you *have* to ream the inside of the case down, you can probably force the bullets in and if it shaves them slightly, so be it. You could probably go from a bag of 308 to a box of 50 rounds in one good day's work, and if you recover the brass, it should last you quite a few uses.

If the bullet gets shaved then accuracy will be affected, most likely negatively. And the case mouth should be belled anyways to prevent shaving. And for those of you who really crimp your cast bullets that can affect accuracy because it swages the bullet some as it passes the crimp at the mouth.

And when making 45 brass from 308 Winchester brass you do need to ream it because of the extra wall thickness of the rifle round. Otherwise you will either squish the bullet or the casing of the loaded bullet will be too big to chamber.

Dolomite

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If the bullet gets shaved then accuracy will be affected, most likely negatively. And the case mouth should be belled anyways to prevent shaving. And for those of you who really crimp your cast bullets that can affect accuracy because it swages the bullet some as it passes the crimp at the mouth.

And when making 45 brass from 308 Winchester brass you do need to ream it because of the extra wall thickness of the rifle round. Otherwise you will either squish the bullet or the casing of the loaded bullet will be too big to chamber.

Dolomite

I was going for, squish the bullet, let the accuracy be knocked around a little, and it would still make a few rounds of acceptable short range anti-bear ammo. I agree with your assessment though -- the ammo without reaming is at best going to be substandard quality.

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