Why did no one fight back??

[chances R]

I don't know my reaction, I know I do think about similar situations and plans. Staying 'yellow' is step one. I think I have really made that decision already, otherwise there would be no use in carrying.

Edited July 23, 2012 by chances R

[Jonnin]

I don't think it would have mattered what caliber gun you had, the ammo or the fact that he was kitted up. I would bet any amount of money that the criminal would have broken contact and fled. Someone bent on murdering helpless people is not the type of person that has the balls to go toe to toe with someone capable of defending themselves.

You are not betting money, though. Its you life, and a would-be hero's grave if you bet wrong. This one wanted to live, so you could be right here. Many such shooters do not care if they live or die, and that would be a bad bet. Got about even odds that the shooter just picks you as the priority target, so at the least, you may save a few people for your efforts. "Here lies Jonnin, victim of the ban on armor penetrating rounds..."

[Guest db99wj]

The thing I have thought about regarding sensory overload is that, yep, you have a movie, dark, loud, lots of action, then add smoke, gun fire, and everyone running chaotically. How would you get a clear shot, it would be very hard to get a clear shot, unless you were right next to the shooter. My immediate goal would be to do what it takes for me and/or my family to get home. That might mean hitting the floor, under seats, crawling out, ready to shoot if confronted.

I also have thought about the whole body armor thing. This guy has never been shot, more than likely. He wasn't expecting to get shot during this, he is probably smart enough to know, no one would have, or at least the odds are against someone having a gun on them, due to the signs! He had the armor on due to the possibility an off duty cop was there or for afterwards. I would imagine, and I have never been shot, but if he would have received a round or two to the chest, it would have stunned him long enough for more action to stop him to take place. Maybe I'm wrong, and the body armor eliminates the impact of the bullet enough that you don't feel much, but maybe somebody here know???

Overall, not sure if a person carrying could have done much, but I would rather have a fighting chance than no chance at all like these people.

[TMF]

You are not betting money, though. Its you life, and a would-be hero's grave if you bet wrong. This one wanted to live, so you could be right here. Many such shooters do not care if they live or die, and that would be a bad bet. Got about even odds that the shooter just picks you as the priority target, so at the least, you may save a few people for your efforts. "Here lies Jonnin, victim of the ban on armor penetrating rounds..."

Ha, well I certainly don't have anything against someone being prepared. I carry a .45 even though I would be fine carrying something smaller. Nobody knows the future and no one can control it. I was merely commenting on the psychology of criminals and those that commit acts like this. Trust me, they are cowards. I do know this though, you ain't gonna find a carry pistol that eats anything that penetrates ballistic plates.

[Jonnin]

there are many levels of body armor. The cheap stuff, a 9mm will crack a rib or leave a nasty, painful bruise : it stops the penetration but the energy goes right on through. The better stuff has plates and layers and more which can reduce the impact. A 10mm or 44 or rifle etc is still going to hurt, but quality stuff would make those bearable while a cheap vest a 44 mag or better has a good chance of actually stopping the threat via pain or damage. So the answer is, it depends. But for once, I feel my 380 might be a little light.

[TMF]

I also have thought about the whole body armor thing. This guy has never been shot, more than likely. He wasn't expecting to get shot during this, he is probably smart enough to know, no one would have, or at least the odds are against someone having a gun on them, due to the signs! He had the armor on due to the possibility an off duty cop was there or for afterwards. I would imagine, and I have never been shot, but if he would have received a round or two to the chest, it would have stunned him long enough for more action to stop him to take place. Maybe I'm wrong, and the body armor eliminates the impact of the bullet enough that you don't feel much, but maybe somebody here know???

Overall, not sure if a person carrying could have done much, but I would rather have a fighting chance than no chance at all like these people.

I've never been shot, but the folks I know that were hit in their ballistic plates with AK rounds were fine. One guy claimed he didn't even know he had been hit. Soft armor though, that's gonna hurt. Getting hit in that fancy kevlar helmet is gonna put him down. I'm fairly confident though, any rounds coming in his direction, no matter what they hit, are going to make him piss himself and likely give up or try to escape. That is the difference between someone fighting for their life and someone just trying to experience the thrill of killing defenseless people.

[Guest db99wj]

I've never been shot, but the folks I know that were hit in their ballistic plates with AK rounds were fine. One guy claimed he didn't even know he had been hit. Soft armor though, that's gonna hurt. Getting hit in that fancy kevlar helmet is gonna put him down. I'm fairly confident though, any rounds coming in his direction, no matter what they hit, are going to make him piss himself and likely give up or try to escape. That is the difference between someone fighting for their life and someone just trying to experience the thrill of killing defenseless people.

That's what I'm thinking, that he isn't expecting to be hit and if he would have been, it would at a minimum slowed/stopped the massacre and sent him possibly running or stunned long enough for other actions.

[TMF]

there are many levels of body armor. The cheap stuff, a 9mm will crack a rib or leave a nasty, painful bruise : it stops the penetration but the energy goes right on through. The better stuff has plates and layers and more which can reduce the impact. A 10mm or 44 or rifle etc is still going to hurt, but quality stuff would make those bearable while a cheap vest a 44 mag or better has a good chance of actually stopping the threat via pain or damage. So the answer is, it depends. But for once, I feel my 380 might be a little light.

From what I understand he was wearing body armor, not a vest. Based on the fact he had a groin protector and a neck protector (both made out of kevlar) I'm guessing he had military style body armor which is gonna have the soft armor along with the ballistic plates which don't go below 3A. That stuff is rated to stop 7.62 x 51 ball. Nowadays all the rage is those level 4 standalone plates that don't even need to be used in conjuction with soft armor, but are.

There is a good video online of a medic taking a 7.62 x 54R in the plate which caused him to fall over, to which he immediately got up, scanned and got behind cover. This happened back in '04 before all the nice armor started coming out, so he just had the old style IBA with SAPI plates. The shot was taken from no further than 150m away, so I'm thinking that a 7.62 x 54R has a lot of energy behind it at that distance. Perhaps there are pistol calibers that could replicate that sort of energy at 7-10m distances, but I'm not a ballistics guru and woudln't know how to calculate that. I do know that the standard carry calibers (9mm, .40, .45) won't come anywhere close and certainly won't have any penetration. I'm sure, though, if I had to empty a mag rapidly in the direction of someone wearing full kit, one of those rounds is going to hit something that makes him consider his mortality.

[Guest nysos]

I am surprised someone hasn't mentioned "fight or flight". Speaking for myself, when I am in a store (usually shopping with the lady and bored) my mind wonders and I think out escape plans for "what ifs". In the same situation in the theater, my first instinct would be "get out!". Many people didn't make it out and got pinned down as a result and tried to sneak out crawling behind chairs, etc. I think if I got pinned down my instinct would change from flight to fight. Seriously, in certain situations you might just have to consider yourself a dead man either way - and as others have said, go out guns blazing. I always have a pocket knife on me, in the few times I am not carrying. Given the close proximity of some of these people to him, I hope I would have tried to take a stab at him under the armpits, neck, etc., maybe go for a disarm/tackle. This is all assuming I was alive long enough to get a grasp on the situation, I hope that once I realized what was happening I would be able to make a decision pretty quickly. It is hard to say because I have never experienced nor hope to experience anything like what happened in that theater. It is just playing armchair quarterback, the Sunday after the game.

OS referenced a church where people bum rushed a shooter. The public as a whole doesn't always stand up for themselves, they sit back watch and be quiet. They look around to see what other people are doing and go along with the crowd. If one person stood up and went after him, it is likely that if someone was noticed trying to confront the attacker that others would have assisted. That is just how crowds work sometimes. There are videos of (I forget who did it), where they would have 2 actors (a guy and a gal) in a park along a well traveled path for jogging/walking. They played the parts of bad boyfriend/helpless girlfriend arguing and he fakes some slaps on her. People consistently would stand by and watch, until someone had the balls to step up and say something - then everybody would be right behind him helping, or trying to help the girl get away - etc. This was played out over and over, same scenario, same spot, different people. It was almost always the same result.

[Jonnin]

A 44 mag out of a 3 inch barrel has about 1/2 the energy of a 223 out of an AR, very roughly. No handgun comes close to a rifle. In a rifle, the 44 has MORE energy than a 223, but no one is going to have their lever gun on their back in public

[TMF]

A 44 mag out of a 3 inch barrel has about 1/2 the energy of a 223 out of an AR, very roughly. No handgun comes close to a rifle. In a rifle, the 44 has MORE energy than a 223, but no one is going to have their lever gun on their back in public

I don't know about you, but when the apocolypse happens in December I'll finally be able to carry my lever action just like that.... already got the rifle scabard and everything. Gonna be just like Kevin Costner I am.

[Links2k]

That's mares leg that I asked about in another thread is starting to seem like a good idea after all. Especially in the winter time. I have always been concerned about this sort of thing happening in theaters (not a mass murder,but a mass robbery). I never attend movies without a weapon, spare mags and a sure fire light. I figure in he event of emergencies a good 120 lumen light may be needed as much as a weapon.

Anyone who has attended the Collierville theater during a storm knows that the odds are good that the power will go out in the middle of the movie. I have used that light twice to lead people out to the lobby.

[pcrc11]

Think about all the media coverage you have ever seen of actual combat. Those guys are usually wearing some kind of body armor have at least a semi auto firearm and are highly trained, Most of the time they are crouching and hiding behind some kind of cover and they are expecting to be shot at. They usually dont charge head on into the line of fire. My guess is by the time most of the people processed what was going on in that theatre it was most likely already over.

[TrickyNicky]

Think about all the media coverage you have ever seen of actual combat. Those guys are usually wearing some kind of body armor have at least a semi auto firearm and are highly trained, Most of the time they are crouching and hiding behind some kind of cover and they are expecting to be shot at. They usually dont charge head on into the line of fire. My guess is by the time most of the people processed what was going on in that theatre it was most likely already over.

To tell the truth I may have thought it was a publicity gimmick done in bad taste or some kind of flash mob prank at first. It wouldn't have been until SHTF that I may have done anything at all except maybe some mental preparation.

Anyway, kind if hard to be prepared for something like this, the guy did most everything right to reach the ends he desired. Between the body armor, smoke/OC, venue selection it would be hard to be ready. Maybe if your a battle hardened, battle ready Marine you might be ready to deal with something like this but that's not the average movie goer. That's not even the average movie goer packing heat.

In reaponce to those saying he would have most likely fled at the first sighn of opposition, I don't know. Seems he was not a dummy though he was defective, he probably knew what he was buying when he selected his armor. If your fine with dying in a pile of hot brass fine, I agree I'll take that over being shot in the back killed while running away but in all likely hood you'd just be making yourself a priority target.

In a way that maybe fine, maybe while the gunmans engaging you a mother can safely see her daughter out of the line of fire, or someone else can tackle him to the ground. It all depends on how you feel about your own mortality at that time and also that of those around you.

Probably not a whole lot of fathers willing to draw fire with their kids around them.

[Sam1]

Amazing how well those postings work.

They just need a new law that requires the signs to be bright orange. Obviously the shooter would not have entered the premises if there was a more visible sign because he didn't want to break the law or anything.

[Guest RevScottie]

I think one of the things contributing to no one rushing the shooter was it took a while for folks to realize that this wasn't simply a publicity stunt or part of the show. People in the theater are likely dressed in costume so it's going to take a while to sort things out in your mind and realize it is actually a threat.