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Can someone explain why we're celebrating Nelson Mandella?


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He was a communist and an (at least indirect) terrorist. He also was the major reason apartheid was ended and democratic government instituted in South Africa.   Pick the parts of the man you love a

I don't remember reading where John Adams or Ben Franklin tied a tire around someone's neck and set it on fire.

Nuking your enemy is not an atrocity.   Triply so when that enemy attacked us without reason, without warning, and triply so given the horrors that japan visited upon the southern chinese population.

He was a communist and an (at least indirect) terrorist. He also was the major reason apartheid was ended and democratic government instituted in South Africa.

 

Pick the parts of the man you love and hate, I suppose.

 

- OS

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Nothing wrong with heads of state going to a funeral like this, but it may have broken protocol to lower the flag, due to his never being an American citizen.

A Sheriff in South Carolina agrees. I'm surprised
more didn't do what he did. Political correctness
must have been the culprit.
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By definition our founding fathers were terrorists too. Why do we celebrate them?

 

Really?

terrorism  â€‚  
 
ter·ror·ism   [ter-uh-riz-uhthinsp.pngthinsp.pngm]  
noun
1.
the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes.
2.
the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorization.
3.
a terroristic method of governing or of resisting a government.
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I don't watch tv but I assumed the hoopla was celebration that he died?   Because surely no american would be celebrating the "legacy" of a man who said things like these:

 

-- If there is a country that has committed unspeakable atrocities in the world, it is the United States of America. They don’t care for human beings

--“If you look at those matters, you will come to the conclusion that the attitude of the United States of America is a threat to world peace.”

 

-- “From its earliest days, the Cuban Revolution has also been a source of inspiration to all freedom-loving people. We admire the sacrifices of the Cuban people in maintaining their independence and sovereignty in the face of the vicious imperialist-orchestrated campaign to destroy the impressive gain made in the Cuban Revolution….Long live the Cuban Revolution. Long live comrade Fidel Castro.”

 

and many, many more hateful and evil statements. 

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     To an earlier point: Mandela as a terrorist.... We know who writes the history books... and it isn't the looser. Had the British defeated us in our battle for independence, some of our founding fathers would've been hung or shot for treason... and written in the history books as the equivalent of terrorists... I'm not sure we had that word back then. :)

   

     It has been a long time since we were a colony... and most of us have never been an indigenous people-group who lived under the brutal, inhumane rule of an invading and conquering people group. It seems that Native Americans would stand a better chance (than me) of understanding the predicament that Mandela and the ANC faced in his earlier years.

 

     Nothing excuses the taking of innocent lives. Nothing. Mandela seems to have known when to leave his own past behind... and as evidenced by the attitude and (political) attendance at his funeral, he was right on. "Smart" is not always righteous, but some folks make peace with picking the most intelligent option (relative to their goal) given them at any given time. Those individuals seem to understand and practice the fact that - despite what options appear to be on the table, you cannot choose options which are not truly available to you. I have to think Mandela knew and exhibited this principle well.

 

     As to our flag, it has been custom long before Obama to fly our nation's flag at half staff in memory of foreign dignitaries (Churchill, for example). I'm not saying I agree with it, but the custom is there. Though this may be the first such dignitary which was formerly labeled a terrorist.

 

I think our president was just glad to be able to speak to a crowd that would cheer him and let him feel like the old days of his campaign(s)... There is not too much of that around here these days.

 

And yes, Mandela was a Marxist.... Although how much he remained one in his later years is in doubt. Again... Smartest decisions at the time.

Edited by Peace
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Why are they celebrating him?  Simple.  What was once wrong, is now correct.  What had always been perceived as correct is now wrong.

 

Personally, I don't think Mandela ever changed his beliefs; he just became a little more polished.

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Oh, he absolutely remained a marxist.   As a leader, with wealth and some power (less in his old age, but still when he spoke, people listened), and as a member of the elite, why would he change?  Marxist leaders are wealthy and powerful, and in the history of the world, I doubt you can count on both hands the number of very wealthy, very powerful dictators who gave it all up to build a free state.   He gets a TINY bit of credit for trying to build a stable country after apartheid (failed, but I do think he tried),  and for not having all the white folks murdered.   That isnt much, but its something.  Way to not be a murderer, good job, I guess?

Edited by Jonnin
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   I'm not for him or against him, so I have no reason to argue a point.  History seems to show that he did some awful things for good reason.  He then did some great things for good reason.  Does that make the awful things right?  Most likely not.  Does that simple historical knowledge alone determine whether a man was good or evil?  Certainly not.  We are far removed from making such judgements - but informed enough to conjecture and try to make sense of it.

 

     I will let you know why I brought up his "leaving marxism".  People who have experienced life much closer to him (than me - or as far as I know - any of us) seem to think he left it behind.  One such person - who did not know Mandela, rather - devoted his professional life to studying, tracking, and "knowing" communism across the globe mentioned the exact same thing.   (BTW: (According to said "guru" - only 5 communist countries left,... and the conquering "expansionism" efforts of communism are long gone... ex.  Where China is moving into Africa, they are bringing Market trade... but not their culture.. and certainly not communism.  Of course, this particular person did not say a word about socialism.  :)  )

 

     Is all of this a sweet, cleansed remembering of Mandela? sure... still, I can find history behind the pretty news snippets, and I would be hesitant to say: "(Having not known him,) I cannot think of a good reason why he would leave Marxism behind, so he (therefore) could not have changed."  

 

     He is being celebrated because he is the face/voice/personality/intellect that represents many who sacrificed to liberate an oppressed people-group.  He sacrificed more than most  - less then many, but he did sacrifice; he did lead, and he did liberate.  (What has evolved in that environment since that time is not entirely his doing - nor is it entirely any one person's doing.  Maybe it could be much better... he certainly could've led in a way which would have made it much worse.)

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Really?
terrorism  









ter·ror·ism [ter-uh-riz-uhthinsp.pngthinsp.pngm]


noun
1.
the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes.

2.
the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorization.

3.
a terroristic method of governing or of resisting a government.


Yes, exactly.
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The situation is indeed a complex one, but I still fail to see why the west is so enamored by Nelson Madela. He had absolutely zero impact on any aspect of world events aside from South Africa and yet he is hailed as a world leader who made great strides for all of society. While there are many issues in South Africa and very very few of them are good the only thing he did was bring chaos and destabilize and entire region of Africa while bringing nothing positive outside of ending apartheid. In fact the turmoil and ethnic cleansings that are going on all around South Africa and in South Africa itself are a direct result of a well intentioned Marxist ideologue. 

 

While I truly believe Mandela was genuine in his intentions and his motives, South Africa is a prime example of what a well intentioned bleeding heart gets you - Chaos and bloodshed on historic levels.

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Always remember this:   Everyone is a mixture of good and bad traits and pasts... I'm no Nelson Mandela fan; because of several things...

 

First, Mandela was, at the minimum, a socialist... I dont like 'em... period; but that's just me.... Secondly, Mandela has blood on his hands, no matter what people say... His actions incited bloodshead on both sides (...black and white...)... His wife, Winnie, was in fact the head of a shadow hit group that wantonly murdered opposition apparatchiks on both sides of the color spectrum...Mandela had to know about that...

 

Mandela's positive traits are notable as well; but the in no way (...in my opinion...) rise to the negative ones... Nelson Mandela had the bearing and the self control of a great man...That, alone, made his a giant to many; but those traits in no way can be used to ignore the darker ones and the carnage and destruction that it brought to south africa...

 

Take the time to read Newt Gingrich's statement concerning Mandela... Nelson Mandela was, in fact, unjustly imprisoned and persecuted and he endured that persecution, heinous as it was, with great dignity... Those actions won him the respect of many in the western world... He was seen by both black south africans and the rest of the western world as the "George Washington" of south africa.... The apartheid government was seen as being worse than satan himself....

 

As heinous as the aparthied "status quo" was in South Africa; it kept the country relatively prosperous and on a pretty even keel... Mandela's presidency and the "black majority rule" has brought nothing to South Africa except a downward economic spiral and lawlessness... The poor blacks that worked the diamond and gold mines are still poor and oppressed... Those who run the diamond and gold mines are still fabulously rich...

 

The sad news is that there is rampant lawlessness and political corruption in South Africa that simply wasnt there with white minority rule... The citizens, both old (...white...) and new (...black...) have traded the rule of law for corruption and murder on a vast scale... There is no escaping it...

 

Take the time to do a google search and you will learn that 30 or so striking black miners where shot dead by black South African policemen in a strike confrontation a few months ago...Their working conditions and lot in life is no better, some thirty years later, than they were under the white apartheid government...The difference is simply the color of their oppressors in government are now black....  Look a bit farther and you will learn that the white Afrikaaners and british landowners (...farmers...) are being systematically murdered in the most heinous ways by roving bands of black thugs "settling scores"; and their property is being confiscated by the present government... The women are being raped and dismembered and the men (...mostly old...) are being killed in the most heinous of ways... Not one of these murders has been solved; and many folks in all parts of the world believe that these "roving bands of murders", in fact, have the tacit approval of the government in this "ethnic cleansing" of south africa...

 

Nelson Mandela; that grandfatherly old Cheshire Cat smiling "Father of South Africa" is, in fact, responsible for this carnage and murder... That simply cant be denied... Having said all that; he has some other accomplices... They are the overbearing busybodies who ran the governments of the United States, Britain, and some lesser luminaries on the european continent... I well remember when we here in the united states obsessed with the rest of the world in pressuring the south african government into this "black rule" thing... The results were predictable and were foretold... As heinous as the apartied thing was in south africa; what they have now is just as bad; if not worse...

 

It's bad because those who were 'liberated" had no notion of liberty and responsibility in government... They were simply unequipped to govern themselves... They, in fact, proved the "white man's burden" thing that the british used to talk about... They were cursed with an army of political opportunists and demagogues that have made things worse for everyone in south africa; no matter whether white or black...

 

Nelson Mandela, along with the busybodies of the western world are directly responsible for this dismantling of a very prosperous country... I simply dont know whether the oppression of apartheid is any different from this new misery of the black working class and murder of the white minority in south africa.... The affluent, nosy, smartest guy in the room, sanctimonious, busybodies of the west have to bow down to the greatness and honor Nelson Mandela; they made him ... They have to to continue the myth that somehow they advanced freedom for the people of south africa; when the plain truth is that they have done just the opposite...

 

Ill grant that Nelson Mandela may have started his notable, world changing adventure with the best and purest of intentions... They simply didnt turn out well for anyone...

 

Ill end this little essay with a sobering observation... What happened (...and is happening...) in south africa is seen by some of this administration's operatives as a perfectly acceptable solution to "white rule" in this very country...

It is my belief that this fact is the very reason for the notable absence of prosecution of black on white crime in of the bluer areas of this country... Thankfully the population ratios here are considerably different from south africa...

 

Elections mean things; if ya like the south african model, vote for more Barak Obamas; if ya dont like it; vote for someone else....

 

rememberin leroy

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Guest RebelCowboySnB

-- If there is a country that has committed unspeakable atrocities in the world, it is the United States of America. They don’t care for human beings

--“If you look at those matters, you will come to the conclusion that the attitude of the United States of America is a threat to world peace.”

Dont care for the man but I agree with him on this. We are the only country to ever nuke a city.. 2 actually. An to this day we are dropping bombs on people with drones cause someone we dont like might be in the group.. But at the same time screaming about our rights being violated cause someone might fly that same drone over our house. Cause apparently natural rights given by god were only given to people in the USA.

 

We are a nation that thinks we are better than everyone else an we have became a nation forever in search of our next war.

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