CMMG...Why, oh, why did I listen to Outpost Armory?

[E4 No More]

Years ago I bought a CMMG AR-15 from Outpost Armory. When I got to the range I had to drift the rear sight all the way to the left stop to get the danged thing to hit paper at 100 yards. Inspection of the weapon yielded no clues as to why it was this way. The front sight post looked to be un-canted and the barrel straight. I called Outpost Armory and got the "You'll have to contact CMMG about it" response. I ended up taking it in the butt to trade it in on a Sig DMR.

 

Fast forward to just before last Christmas. I went to Outpost Armory looking for a 9mm carbine. I looked at a Beretta Storm and the Taurus. Neither of them really blew my skirt up because they seemed weakly made, so the "manager" who was helping me suggested the 9mm  AR-15 platform. He showed me the 9mm that they had in stock, and when I saw that it was a CMMG I told him of my last experience with CMMG. The dude gave me the "I'm shocked" response, and how CMMG has excellent weapons in his experience, and how I must have gotten the one-off rifle. I thought that keeping the same platform of which I was totally familiar was the smart thing to do, so in a moment of stupidity I listened to the dude and decided to give CMMG another try.

 

This morning, time, money, schedule, weather, and memory came together so that I could finally take the 9mm out to shoot it for the first time I happily loaded up my magazine with some HST ammo, stepped up to the firing line, chambered a round, raised the rifle into my shoulder, pulled the trigger and heard "click"! I thought "IDIOT! You short stroked the charging handle! So I cycled the bolt which ejected a round. Hum, I must have had a bad round, so I went through the process again just to hear another "Click!"

 

I looked at both primers to find absolutely no evidence of a firing pin strike at all. I removed the bolt and depressed the firing pin with the flat edge of a key to find the firing pin nowhere near the back side of the bolt face. You'd think that for $1,000 CMMG would sell a rifle that actually worked. Well, "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me." There will not be a third time!

 

I guess that first thing on Monday morning I'll hear about how I'll need to spend the money to send the rifle to CMMG and wait for them to fix it. :(

[RobertNashville]

I've never had a CMMG product; do they have a good reputation or are these kind of problems something they are known for???

[rugerla1]

Dang! That really, really sucks! I haven't heard anything really bad about CMMG but haven't really looked either. I would dang sure let them know about both experiences, which I'm sure you will too. I hope they take care of you.

 

Oh, and they are open tomorrow (Outpost).

Edited July 6, 2014 by rugerla1

[Reservoir Dog]

I've never had a CMMG product; do they have a good reputation or are these kind of problems something they are known for???

 

CMMG makes a good product.  I have never heard an unusually high number of complaints about them.

 

I wonder if the firing pin is out of spec?  :shrug:

[orientalexpress]

So you waited 8 months to notify someone with a problem?

[E4 No More]

So you waited 8 months to notify someone with a problem?

No, I just tried to shoot it today.

[Luke E.]

 I would take it back to Outpost in person and explain the situation and pull the bolt and demonstrate the malfunction. I have had good luck with the reloading staff as well as some of the "gun guys" but I am 0 for 5 with good experiences over the phone down there (when someone answers). It's also a lot easier to push someone off on the manufacturer over the phone and no one wants to try that move in front of others that are trying to decide whether or not to buy a firearm from them. I would suggest talking with Dan (pretty sure that's his name) in the gun dept. as he seems like quite the no nonsense kind of guy and also seems to truly give a sh!t about the Outpost name. I've been around a handful of CMMG rifles and never had an issue but it sounds like you and I have about the same kind of luck. Good luck getting it all straightened out.

Edited July 6, 2014 by Luke E.

[hipower]

Contrary to what some may think, I don't see it to be uncommon for a purchased firearm to sit in a safe that long before being fired.

Maybe not the smartest thing for us to do, but it happens for often than many will, or would like to admit.

And yes...I have done it as well.

Thankfully the worst incident I've had has been with a Chiappa Beretta clone in 22. Put it away, then took it out and found it to be a piece of excrement. Edited July 6, 2014 by hipower

[mikegideon]

At least it's confined to the bolt carrier group, and is gonna be a real easy fix.

[Luke E.]

Contrary to what some may think, I don't see it to be uncommon for a purchased firearm to sit in a safe that long before being fired.

Maybe not the smartest thing for us to do, but it happens for often than many will, or would like to admit.

And yes...I have done it as well.

Thankfully the worst incident I've had has been with a Chiappa Beretta clone in 22. Put it away, then took it out and found it to be a piece of excrement.

 

 I try to fire 20rds rifle or 50rds pistol through any new firearm within the first couple of weeks for this very reason. It helps that I can walk out the back door and fire into a dirt bank enough to function test or run a couple miles around the road to one of my buddies farms to get a bit more in depth. If I didn't have those places at my disposal then I would most definitely be in the same boat because it seems like I either get tons of range time, range opportunities or I get zero range time and anytime I get something new i'm sure you can guess which end of the spare time spectrum i'm usually in.

[orientalexpress]

Contrary to what some may think, I don't see it to be uncommon for a purchased firearm to sit in a safe that long before being fired.

Maybe not the smartest thing for us to do, but it happens for often than many will, or would like to admit.

And yes...I have done it as well.

Thankfully the worst incident I've had has been with a Chiappa Beretta clone in 22. Put it away, then took it out and found it to be a piece of excrement.

That's your prerogative but I think it's stupid for you to wait 8+ months to shoot something and expect the store to take of something that far down the road. Maybe I'm in the minority but despite what we're all taught to think the customer is not always right.

[rugerla1]

If there was a problem from the factory 8 months later, they should still be liable for fixing it, whether it was brand new or used after 8 months they still put out a faulty product.

[Luke E.]

That's your prerogative but I think it's stupid for you to wait 8+ months to shoot something and expect the store to take of something that far down the road. Maybe I'm in the minority but despite what we're all taught to think the customer is not always right.

 

 You're not married are you?  :rofl: I ask this for 2 reasons, 1 is that once married, things don't always go exactly as you would wish nor do they happen within the choice timeline that you would choose if your own wants and desires were the only ones to take into consideration.2 is that, and I know everyone has heard this before, weeks go by incredibly fast once you've hit that milestone. I'm sure others will agree but months go by like weeks, it literally seems like Christmas was just 4-5 weeks back.

[orientalexpress]

You're not married are you? :rofl: I ask this for 2 reasons, 1 is that once married, things don't always go exactly as you would wish nor do they happen within the choice timeline that you would choose if your own wants and desires were the only ones to take into consideration.2 is that, and I know everyone has heard this before, weeks go by incredibly fast once you've hit that milestone. I'm sure others will agree but months go by like weeks, it literally seems like Christmas was just 4-5 weeks back.

No I'm not married but I think it's ridiculous to be pissed off about something 8+ months after the fact.

Where's the personal responsibility? That's what's wrong with this country today. Ok so you had a bad experience with Outpost and then you had a bad experience with CMMG. Apparently they both offered you something that made you come back. Get whatever it is fixed and move on. It's neither one of their faults you waited so long to find out it was defective. It's been 8+ months what's another month.

Also I'm going to speak from the other side of the counter. You wouldn't believe how many people that either trade in guns that are broken that get over in gun shops. Or that try to return them because their wife found out, or it wasn't what they wanted and then blame it on a "defect". So forgive me for being slightly jaded to the situation.

By the way did the OP make the person aware that the cmmg had an issue when he traded it? Because if he didn't that's a douche move as well as hypocritical.

[Luke E.]

No I'm not married but I think it's ridiculous to be pissed off about something 8+ months after the fact.

Where's the personal responsibility? That's what's wrong with this country today. Ok so you had a bad experience with Outpost and then you had a bad experience with CMMG. Apparently they both offered you something that made you come back. Get whatever it is fixed and move on. It's neither one of their faults you waited so long to find out it was defective. It's been 8+ months what's another month.

Also I'm going to speak from the other side of the counter. You wouldn't believe how many people that either trade in guns that are broken that get over in gun shops. Or that try to return them because their wife found out, or it wasn't what they wanted and then blame it on a "defect". So forgive me for being slightly jaded to the situation.

By the way did the OP make the person aware that the cmmg had an issue when he traded it? Because if he didn't that's a douche move as well as hypocritical.

 

 I wasn't aware that making sure to fire a rifle within a certain amount of time was a matter of personal responsibility much less a personal responsibility that takes priority over work, family, etc.. Most of the men and women on TGO LOVE to shoot and spend time at the range or field so i'm going to go out on a limb and assume that leaving the rifle marinating in the safe for 8 months wouldn't have been his move of choice if more important responsibilities hadn't gotten in the way. 

 Another thing is that the OP has not mentioned Outpost nor CMMG giving him a problem about whether it's been 1 day, 8 months or 2yrs since he bought it so i'm thinking his frustration is stemming from being pushed off on the manufacturer on the first rifle and/or having an issue with the 2nd rifle. Who knows, he may carry it in there Monday and Outpost tell him that they'd be happy to get it taken care or for him. 

 I can certainly imagine that there are a great number of cases of "buyers remorse" and "my wife wasn't quite as receptive to a new gun as I thought she'd be" and that sucks for the shop and the salesman that may have be paid on commission but a xx day return policy would fix anything like that from happening outside of that time frame. The difference here is that the OP wasn't trying to "return" or "trade" the first CMMG rifle that had sight issues, he just wanted it looked at and fixed and felt whomever he spoke with at Outpost should have had someone look at it rather than brushing him off and telling him that he'd have to send it to CMMG himself. He didn't trade the rifle until after attempting to have the problem remedied. I have seen what you speak of first hand though, A friend of mine had that happen from time to time when he had his FFL and there were a couple of times, after some questioning, the buyer let something slip that made it very evident that he had gone home and found it cheaper on Buds or some other online wholesaler and decided that he would return it claiming it was defective and then turn around and order the gun online to save $30 or 40 bucks. One guy was so dumb that 3 days after returning the "defective" pistol (which my buddy offered to replace with another out of the case) he came in to get FFL info faxed over to have the very same pistol transferred at my buddy's shop.. Needless to say, this guy was the kind of douche you are talking about and he was refused service.

 Also, the OP stated that he "took it in the butt to trade it in on a SIG" which tells me that he either indeed told the shop that he traded it to that something was wrong or he wouldn't have had to "take it in the butt" (hypothetically I HOPE), or he traded it for the Sig at Outpost which they would have known of the issue since that's the reason he brought it in.

 I certainly am not and will never argue that FACT that there ARE tons of rotten A'holes that will try to manipulate the system to their benefit even if it's wrong, unethical and a show or poor character but i'm inclined to argue against life being busy and not having time to make it to the range in a timely manner makes the OP one of the aforementioned "rotten A'holes"

[jughead]

have 2 used rifles in my safe now working on 2 years and i havent fired them. how ever bought where is as is. will get around to it one of these days.

[HvBikeWlTravel]

No I'm not married but I think it's ridiculous to be pissed off about something 8+ months after the fact.

Where's the personal responsibility? That's what's wrong with this country today. Ok so you had a bad experience with Outpost and then you had a bad experience with CMMG. Apparently they both offered you something that made you come back. Get whatever it is fixed and move on. It's neither one of their faults you waited so long to find out it was defective. It's been 8+ months what's another month.

Also I'm going to speak from the other side of the counter. You wouldn't believe how many people that either trade in guns that are broken that get over in gun shops. Or that try to return them because their wife found out, or it wasn't what they wanted and then blame it on a "defect". So forgive me for being slightly jaded to the situation.

By the way did the OP make the person aware that the cmmg had an issue when he traded it? Because if he didn't that's a douche move as well as hypocritical.

Now let me get this straight; you wouldn't be pissed-off if a firearm you bought didn't function?  Must be "oriental discipline".

Edited July 6, 2014 by HvBikeWlTravel

[Hozzie]

Now let me get this straight; you wouldn't be pissed-off if a firearm you bought didn't function?  Must be "oriental discipline".

 

I don't think he is saying he wouldn't be pissed.  He is simply saying that it's hard to hold the retailer responsible and asking a lot to expect them to just take it back.  I actually think all of you are taking the extreme position on both sides.  I don't think the OP was doing much more than venting his frustration.  There are two different issues in his OP.  The first was the AR-15 issue when he had to trade and the second was finding out he had an issue with the 9mm after 8 months.  No mention of how long between when he bought the first one and when he took it back.

 

So, with all of that said, I think both of you are correct on some of each point.  Here is my simple view on what I would expect.

 

For the first issue based on what is presented, I would have at least expected Outpost to offer to send the rifle back to CMMG and try to assist the OP with getting it fixed.  I don't expect them to take it in return as every gun shop you see (for the most part) has a policy of any warranty issues need to go through the manufacturer.  On the other hand, most dealers I know will send it to the manufacturer for you as part of their customer service.  If they didn't offer this, then that is a negative on the dealer for me.  Now, if they did offer and the only option the OP wanted was a complete refund, then that is asking a bit much unless maybe it was within 30 day of original purchase (trying to be generous).  Even then, it would depend on the condition of the rifle if I was the dealer.

 

On the second issue, only shooting it after 8 months, then I am on the side that it is on the buyer.  At that point I think the only thing the dealer is obligated to do is again offer to send it to the manufacturer for you, even if you have to pay for it.  FFL's typically get very good rates, so the cost shouldn't be a big deterrent.  Expecting a dealer to take back a gun after 8 months is ludicrous in my view.  To be fair, the OP never said he was expecting them to take it back, I think he was just frustrated with it not working and it doesn't help the Outpost employee recommended it.

 

As with anything, I think the issue comes down to something pretty simple.  We all hope that someone can empathize with our issue.  Some dealers are good at it and will try to do what they can to help even if it isn't really their issue.  These are the ones we like.  Then there are those who act like they couldn't give two craps and it only creates a bigger issue when we get pissed, but in the end there is very little we can do about it other than tell others of our experience.  Then there is a third which is just a douchebag buyer.  I actually think this is more rare, but it certainly happens.  In that case, even if the dealers were going to try and help, the buyer sets their own fate.  I am with the dealers on these situations.

 

 

Edited July 6, 2014 by Hozzie

[Luke E.]

I don't think he is saying he wouldn't be pissed. He is simply saying that it's hard to hold the retailer responsible and asking a lot to expect them to just take it back. I actually think all of you are taking the extreme position on both sides. I don't think the OP was doing much more than venting his frustration. There are two different issues in his OP. The first was the AR-15 issue when he had to trade and the second was finding out he had an issue with the 9mm after 8 months. No mention of how long between when he bought the first one and when he took it back.

So, with all of that said, I think both of you are correct on some of each point. Here is my simple view on what I would expect.

For the first issue based on what is presented, I would have at least expected Outpost to offer to send the rifle back to CMMG and try to assist the OP with getting it fixed. I don't expect them to take it in return as every gun shop you see (for the most part) has a policy of any warranty issues need to go through the manufacturer. On the other hand, most dealers I know will send it to the manufacturer for you as part of their customer service. If they didn't offer this, then that is a negative on the dealer for me. Now, if they did offer and the only option the OP wanted was a complete refund, then that is asking a bit much unless maybe it was within 30 day of original purchase (trying to be generous). Even then, it would depend on the condition of the rifle if I was the dealer.

On the second issue, only shooting it after 8 months, then I am on the side that it is on the buyer. At that point I think the only thing the dealer is obligated to do is again offer to send it to the manufacturer for you, even if you have to pay for it. FFL's typically get very good rates, so the cost shouldn't be a big deterrent. Expecting a dealer to take back a gun after 8 months is ludicrous in my view. To be fair, the OP never said he was expecting them to take it back, I think he was just frustrated with it not working and it doesn't help the Outpost employee recommended it.

As with anything, I think the issue comes down to something pretty simple. We all hope that someone can empathize with our issue. Some dealers are good at it and will try to do what they can to help even if it isn't really their issue. These are the ones we like. Then there are those who act like they couldn't give two craps and it only creates a bigger issue when we get pissed, but in the end there is very little we can do about it other than tell others of our experience. Then there is a third which is just a douchebag buyer. I actually think this is more rare, but it certainly happens. In that case, even if the dealers were going to try and help, the buyer sets their own fate. I am with the dealers on these situations.

That is pretty much exactly what I was saying in my last post.

[Dave Shooter]

Years ago I bought a CMMG AR-15 from Outpost Armory. When I got to the range I had to drift the rear sight all the way to the left stop to get the danged thing to hit paper at 100 yards. Inspection of the weapon yielded no clues as to why it was this way. The front sight post looked to be un-canted and the barrel straight. I called Outpost Armory and got the "You'll have to contact CMMG about it" response. I ended up taking it in the butt to trade it in on a Sig DMR.

 

Fast forward to just before last Christmas. I went to Outpost Armory looking for a 9mm carbine. I looked at a Beretta Storm and the Taurus. Neither of them really blew my skirt up because they seemed weakly made, so the "manager" who was helping me suggested the 9mm  AR-15 platform. He showed me the 9mm that they had in stock, and when I saw that it was a CMMG I told him of my last experience with CMMG. The dude gave me the "I'm shocked" response, and how CMMG has excellent weapons in his experience, and how I must have gotten the one-off rifle. I thought that keeping the same platform of which I was totally familiar was the smart thing to do, so in a moment of stupidity I listened to the dude and decided to give CMMG another try.

 

This morning, time, money, schedule, weather, and memory came together so that I could finally take the 9mm out to shoot it for the first time I happily loaded up my magazine with some HST ammo, stepped up to the firing line, chambered a round, raised the rifle into my shoulder, pulled the trigger and heard "click"! I thought "IDIOT! You short stroked the charging handle! So I cycled the bolt which ejected a round. Hum, I must have had a bad round, so I went through the process again just to hear another "Click!"

 

I looked at both primers to find absolutely no evidence of a firing pin strike at all. I removed the bolt and depressed the firing pin with the flat edge of a key to find the firing pin nowhere near the back side of the bolt face. You'd think that for $1,000 CMMG would sell a rifle that actually worked. Well, "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me." There will not be a third time!

 

I guess that first thing on Monday morning I'll hear about how I'll need to spend the money to send the rifle to CMMG and wait for them to fix it. :(

I wonder if you got a Shot Show gun?  Intentionally set up so it couldn't fire and slipped into inventory somehow...

[BigK]

The only difference between that gun sitting in the OP's safe for 8 months and it hanging on a wall at Outpost Armory is that in his safe it was handled less and likely kept cleaner/exposed to less moisture. Yet, most stores and manufacturers have nothing but "time since purchase" to measure their perceived liablity. As a member of the "$hi+ comes up that takes precedent over going to the range" club, I can see it happen. However, knowing about the clock running from the day I purchase, I've always made time to test a new gun within 2 weeks of purchase. If nothing else, the fear of losing money will motivate me enough to make it a priority. But, that's just me. I'm lucky to have grown kids, a wife that's glad to get me out of the house, and few other responsibilities. Bottom line is that if Outpost had that gun in inventory for a year before it sold, the clock wouldn't start ticking. A consumer should be able to have the confidence in a purchase that extends past first-use, whether that first-use is the day after purchase or a year later. Edited July 6, 2014 by BigK

[hipower]

That's your prerogative but I think it's stupid for you to wait 8+ months to shoot something and expect the store to take of something that far down the road. Maybe I'm in the minority but despite what we're all taught to think the customer is not always right.

Rebuttall. Did I say I expected the manufacturer to take care of it? I did not in my post. Your comment is the rude and inflammatory.

Now, do I expect to have the problem resolved by the manufacturer? Yes I do, to the extent of the warranty.

[cannoncocker]

I have 3 CMMG AR rifles.  Not top shelf, but accurate and 100% reliable.   My pre-sale questions were directed to tech support and promptly answered via telephone.  Call them and discuss your problem. From what you have described the worst that may happen is you will have to send the bolt back.

 

From CMMG's website:

 

CMMG Lifetime Quality Guarantee
CMMG, Inc. will guarantee its products against defects in material or workmanship.  CMMG, Inc. will repair, replace or substitute part(s) (at CMMG, Inc. discretion) at no charge to the customer if a defect of material or workmanship is found. All service work must be carried out by CMMG, Inc.

[DaveTN]

I don’t know why anyone is arguing about 8 months; it shouldn’t be an issue other than I doubt the dealer will take it back. But the dealer should ship it back for you or CMMG should send you a prepaid shipping label. Like Mike said it’s probably the BCG and they will probably just put another one in.

Then you can wait another 8 months to see if that fixed it. I know how it goes though I sent a Shield back to S&W. I was concerned how long it would take; it ended up only being a 16 day turnaround time, but sat here for months before I shot it again.

Now I get to deal with the Remington 700 recall.

[orientalexpress]

Rebuttall. Did I say I expected the manufacturer to take care of it? I did not in my post. Your comment is the rude and inflammatory.

Now, do I expect to have the problem resolved by the manufacturer? Yes I do, to the extent of the warranty.

Just to be clear I wasn't speaking directly at your post in regards to returning, repairing, etc.

I stand by my comment that I think it's foolish to not at least test fire a firearm. As well as the subsequent comment(s) that for some reason gun owners have some kind of sense of entitlement. I've worked retail for 15 years from shoe stores, cell phones, to general merchandise, to firearms. Firearms customers are some of the worst in regards to a sense of entitlement. Especially in the internet age where people can shop amazon, budsgunshop, eBay, and people expect you to bend over backwards to try to accommodate them.