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Norris Watershed!


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Guest tngw1500se

Norris watershed is posted. BUT... They have a gun range and allow hunts on the property! I called them and was told if you pay for the range, you can bring unloaded guns into the watershed but you may not carry in the watershed. So much for joining the rifle range ever again!! I don't shop anywhere that's posted and if they don't allow people with carry permits to carry in the watershed then I don't pay them to join their riflerange. There's a free range up at exit 141 of 75 that is east of the interstate on Sundquest property. I'll go there. BS!

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Norris watershed is posted. BUT... They have a gun range and allow hunts on the property! I called them and was told if you pay for the range, you can bring unloaded guns into the watershed but you may not carry in the watershed. So much for joining the rifle range ever again!! I don't shop anywhere that's posted and if they don't allow people with carry permits to carry in the watershed then I don't pay them to join their riflerange. There's a free range up at exit 141 of 75 that is east of the interstate on Sundquest property. I'll go there. BS!

 

I have the feeling that legally, if it's posted, that it's actually illegal to load weapons at the range. I am unaware of the law allowing the owners, if they post, to allow some people to carry legally. Sounds like they want their cake and eat it too.

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I used to do a lot of dirt biking up there.  Seems like a place that I wouldn't want to be without a gun.  Who controls the land?  Is it the City of Norris or maybe TVA?  Is it designated as a park?  I think we need to find out who is responsible for it being posted, I have a feeling that this was an "executive order."

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Haven't been up there in about 9 months but obviously something new.

 

WHERE is it posted? Do you mean only the range itself or the whole watershed? What does the posting say?

 

- OS

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Haven't been up there in about 9 months but obviously something new.

WHERE is it posted? Do you mean only the range itself or the whole watershed? What does the posting say?

- OS


Can open land even be posted? Who owns it TVA? Wouldn't every possible entrance have to be posted?
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Owned by TVA (I think), managed by City of Norris - http://www.cityofnorris.com/id242.html

 

Nothing about firearms on their web page.

 

Note that they *do* require Hunter Safety Course regardless of age  for hunt.  Not sure how legal that is. http://www.cityofnorris.com/id178.html

 

Edit to correct - it was transferred to the city in several parcels.

Edited by R_Bert
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Guest tngw1500se

Haven't been up there in about 9 months but obviously something new.

 

WHERE is it posted? Do you mean only the range itself or the whole watershed? What does the posting say?

 

- OS

At the water tower at the begining of high point trail.

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Guest tngw1500se

I have the feeling that legally, if it's posted, that it's actually illegal to load weapons at the range. I am unaware of the law allowing the owners, if they post, to allow some people to carry legally. Sounds like they want their cake and eat it too.

can you bring an unloaded gun to a posted park? i don't think so.

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Guest tngw1500se

Haven't been up there in about 9 months but obviously something new.

 

WHERE is it posted? Do you mean only the range itself or the whole watershed? What does the posting say?

 

- OS

should have took a picture. It was a white sign at the bridge going over the creek at the water tower on the 441 side of high point trail. Turn on gravel road off 441 by mill. About a mile down the road here's a water tower. turn left there and there's a parking lot and a bridge going into the water shed. It's posted on the bridge. It says something about jail and max fines. Called city manager and he said it's been that way for years.

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should have took a picture. It was a white sign at the bridge going over the creek at the water tower on the 441 side of high point trail. Turn on gravel road off 441 by mill. About a mile down the road here's a water tower. turn left there and there's a parking lot and a bridge going into the water shed. It's posted on the bridge. It says something about jail and max fines. Called city manager and he said it's been that way for years.

 

Whatever ... apparently I've never been near that area when I go to the Norris Range via Upper Clear Creek Road?
 

At any rate, "been there for years" means nothing, as there is no more validity for any local firearms ordinances. Period.

 

The only way they can deny firearms is per the state parks statute 39-17-1311. Requires local resolution by city council to opt out of the state law,  and quite specific signage as per language and size at all entrances to the confines of the entire area wherein firearm possession is prohibited.

 

And of course the idea of operating a rifle range in the middle of an otherwise purported gun free area is legally absurd on the face of it for any number of reasons.

 

 

- OS

Edited by Oh Shoot
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didnt know they could opt out of state parks. thought it had to be a county or city park.

 

Norris Municipal Watershed is not state land, but part of the City of Norris. Yep, deer hunts inside city limits.

 

norris.jpg

 

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Norris,+TN/@36.2115556,-84.0561802,7262m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x885c45d238dbc8cb:0x34f743485f99fe0c

 

http://www.cityofnorris.com/id212.html

 

 

- OS

Edited by Oh Shoot
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I was up there today. Had never noticed those signs before. But every entrance to the water shed has them, even the one going to the range, sign is on the same post as the "Norris Munciple Watershed" hrs, permit required for big game hunts, firewood, etc.

Took a pic of one of them but can't post from my phone, I'll try to remember to post it Monday from the office.
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I was up there today. Had never noticed those signs before. But every entrance to the water shed has them, even the one going to the range, sign is on the same post as the "Norris Munciple Watershed" hrs, permit required for big game hunts, firewood, etc.

Took a pic of one of them but can't post from my phone, I'll try to remember to post it Monday from the office.

 

Obviously something new since I was up there last, 7 or 8 months ago. But can tell ya, they'll probably need to be compliant with posting standards in 39-17-1311 to be enforced. Will wait to see your pix for opinion on that.

 

As always, (and same with 39-17-1359) this is not to say you couldn't be arrested/convicted locally, but I'd posit an appeal would overturn it, if one has deep enough pockets to go through the process.

 

Still waiting on inevitable test case for the "compliant posting" thang. Seems odd Kwik never jumped into these.

 

- OS

Edited by Oh Shoot
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One interesting point....while renewing my range permit last summer ('13) I asked the officer taking care do me if there was any problem carrying into the PD? I pointed out that previous years I disarmed before entering the station and reholstered before leaving. I felt it was safer just to leave everything situated. He agreed completely and said no issues carrying inside. Maybe things have changed.?.?
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IMG_0894.jpg

 

Well, can't tell size of sign exactly, but does look like they're pretty well compliant with 39-17-1311.

 

Not sure exactly how this squares with having a firing range in the middle of the place, though. I suppose since the whole statute is based on not "going armed" while doing it, unloaded guns in vehicle would not be a violation. And I guess the "sport shooting" part of being at the range itself is also an out for the "going armed" part.

 

Or something.

 

One interesting point....while renewing my range permit last summer ('13) I asked the officer taking care do me if there was any problem carrying into the PD? I pointed out that previous years I disarmed before entering the station and reholstered before leaving. I felt it was safer just to leave everything situated. He agreed completely and said no issues carrying inside. Maybe things have changed.?.?

 

Well, the PD is not in the watershed and of course not a park covered under 1311.  They'd have to post a 1359 sign like anyone else to prevent carry in the PD.

 

- OS

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I was unaware that there was anything in state law pertaining to carrying, "on or in Norris Public Recreational Property", as stated by the sign.  Further, are the penalties for carrying past a sign on public property different from carrying in a posted business (fine of $500 and not a criminal issue) or is the sign wrong on that?

 

To me, it seems quite ludicrous to attempt to post a large, wooded plot of land.  It seems like yet another unenforceable rule/law.  I didn't see any metal detectors in the background of that picture nor did I see any law enforcement personnel checking people who are entering the area.  Not that I would encourage anyone to violate a strongly worded sign but I would point out that state law seems to be clear that if one were to forget to assume disarmed victim status upon entering the area and subsequently had to use the firearm they forgot they had then any charges stemming from rules prohibiting having the firearm are supposed to be null and void.

 

Personally, I think it should be illegal to post public property, especially public lands (as opposed to buildings) and any local lawmakers attempting to do so should be the ones to incur a fine (and not a fine that the city would pay but, rather, a fine they would have to pay as individuals.)

Edited by JAB
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I was unaware that there was anything in state law pertaining to carrying, "on or in Norris Public Recreational Property", as stated by the sign.  Further, are the penalties for carrying past a sign on public property different from carrying in a posted business (fine of $500 and not a criminal issue) or is the sign wrong on that?

 

 

It's not "public property" that makes diff, but "public parks, playgrounds, civic centers and other public recreational buildings and grounds".

 

And yes, it is indeed a Class A Misdemeanor, as opposed to the 1359 penalty of Class B 'meanor with fine only.

 

Actual verbiage called for is:

 

"MISDEMEANOR. STATE LAW PRESCRIBES A MAXIMUM PENALTY OF ELEVEN (11) MONTHS AND TWENTY-NINE (29) DAYS AND A FINE NOT TO EXCEED TWO THOUSAND FIVE HUNDRED DOLLARS ($2,500) FOR CARRYING WEAPONS ON OR IN PUBLIC RECREATIONAL PROPERTY."

 

Size is mandated as "at least six inches (6'') high and fourteen inches (14'') wide".

 

Methinks on the unlikely chance you were tried on this one, has a lot better chance of standing up than a 1359 violation where sign said "No Guns", though I still opine that either might stand, even with appeal process.

 

- OS

Edited by Oh Shoot
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The Norris Watershed is part of  the City of Norris.

 

So, what's the problem again?

 

So if it's not part of the TVA then state law at least allows a permit holder to conceal their firearm in their vehicle. A city can't override state law.

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So if it's not part of the TVA then state law at least allows a permit holder to conceal their firearm in their vehicle. A city can't override state law.

 

The "possession for anyone in private vehicle" change does not exempt the prohibition on such in parks, school property, or posted parking lots. It is an exception for 39-17-1307 only, not the other three statutes, 1309, 1311, or 1359.

 

A carry permit allows you to pack heat in vehicle in parking lots in those places.  Even with a carry permit you would technically be guilty of violation of parks statute with a loaded gun until you got to a parking lot!

 

- OS

Edited by Oh Shoot
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