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Need Opinions - Affect on weapons by Dry Firing (trigger pull practice)


PAULSHOOT

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The main Question I have is:

Is it OK to dry fire weapons?? Thanks for any responses.

Mainly, I am considering a Taurus 9MM PT111 Millennium G2 version for reason I need Trigger Pull Practice.

See Photos of last time at range, best I have done with this gun, most before have been left and low and more scattered. That is 21 feet, 4 targets, 10 round each, taking time to aim.  Last set (small picture - not sure what happened with the camera or when I edited to dwonsize) is first target with holes repaired to shoot at it again.. Love those Splatter Burst Targets - E Bay get 25 shets for like $18 that include on each sheet (4 four inch, 1 three inch, and 2 two inch, plus a lot of dots to repair). 

Back to Dry Firing -- Personally, I don't like dry firing as I think it might affect the weapons performance or reliability. However, a book on Hand Gun Handling I have been reading suggests to gain Trigger Pull Accuracy -- do a lot of dry Firing. ??? 

Would like some opinions on affect on wear on the gun?

Would also like to know if putting an empty cartridge in the chamber would help reduce wear?

I do realize there are dry fire cartridges one can buy (some kind of spring in them to duplicate a real cartridge, anyone familiar with those? 

My gun story and lack of experience for what it is worth -- I am pretty new and inexperienced with guns. I have owned a 12 GA shotgun I bought when I was 16 (62 years ago and I still have it). I did some hunting with the 12 GA and plinking with cousin's 22 rifle when younger (teenage to late 20s).

I got interested in shooting in DEC of 2015 and this is the story since then.

Bought a 22 Pistol (Ruger SR22) - I Like and do pretty good with it (my opinion HA!).  

Bought a BB Pistol (CO2), a 10 pump BB Rifle, a Break Barrel Pellet rifle - I LIKE cause can shoot in basement range I set up. They are cheap to shoot and decent accuracy at 20 to 42 feet. BBs scatter (stay near or in a 4 inch target), better accuracy  with the break barrel pellet (can usually stay with in a 3 inch target, most within a couple inches).  

Bought a .22LR Remington Rifle - I LIKE and Ammo is not to pricey (getting 650 rounds of Federal at Dick's Sporting Goods for like $37.50 plus tax).  

Bought the 9MM Taurus PT111  Millennium G2 (about two months old and shot maybe 200 rounds thru it).

PROBLEM -- It has a hard trigger break over and the trigger engagement is way back toward the grip. HANCOCK 45 U-Tube complains about the trigger, but he hits everything he shoots at with rapid shooting and change of targets between shots. Amazing - check out his U-Tubes (100s of them - talks a little too much, but does a good job).  

I am getting better with the 9MM, but need a lot of practice (Trigger Pull I think is my main issue which is why I am on here asking about Dry Firing).

Ammo is too expensive as you all know, at least for me to allow a lot of practice.  I have been shooting some steel casing Max Tech at $7.99 plus tax for 50 rounds (most reasonable stuff I have seen) and brass casing Blazer Brass at $9.99 plus tax per round. All Bought at Floyd's Gun and Golf in Sevierville, TN

By the way all seem to work OK - I have been cleaning the steel casing with alcohol on a rag first (guy at Bass Pro told me that would help eliminate eject and failure to load problems). I did have one eject and two failure to loads on the first 20 rounds when the gun was new and I had not cleaned the steel casing.  Not sure I still need to clean -- may try some without cleaning. 

Anyway, Trigger Pull Practice and Gun Handling brought up the questions about Dry Firing.

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Edited by PAULSHOOT
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I'm not an expert, but will give you my opinion anyway. Will dry firing damage a gun? That entirely depends on the gun in question. My understanding is that in general you do not want to dry-fire rimfire guns. The reason is that the firing pin would impact hard steel, absent of a cartridge in the chamber, and cause damage to the tip of the firing pin (flattening) as well as the back of the chamber (peening). If you want to dry fire a rimfire, insert an empty cartridge so that the firing pin will hit softer brass.

For centerfire guns, it all depends on the gun. CZ pistols, for example, are known to take damage from prolonged dry-firing. Absent of a round in the chamber, the firing pin will hit the firing pin retaining roll-pin, and the stock roll-pins will eventually break from that repeated impact. The solution is to use snap-caps, or to use "hardened" roll-pins (available from shops like Cajun Gun Works), or to use a rubber O-ring wedged in the back of the slide over the firing pin.

Other guns may be fine to dry fire, but I don't think it's a good idea to dry fire on an empty chamber in general. The firing pin was designed to hit the primer of a cartridge. If that cartridge is not there, the firing pin would fly into the chamber. To prevent that, every gun has some method of retaining that firing pin. That means, the hammer impact energy is not absorbed by the primer, but by the retaining mechanism (pins, solid metal walls, etc). While you can certainly dry-fire a lot of guns without parts breaking "immediately" or "soon", that impact energy may still be causing peening, dents, etc in the long run on parts that probably should not get this abuse. Also, the impact energy may cause the metal in the firing to fatigue early, which can lead to the firing pin breaking. Again, it all depends on the gun.

Mind you, occasional dry firing is not a problem. It's the hundreds of times of dry firing during practice that will cause all this wear.

All those questions and worries can be avoided by using snap-caps. There are two types, one with a soft rubber representing the primer, and one with a solid piece of brass that's spring loaded. I found that the rubber ones suck, because after prolonged dry firing, the firing pin will produce holes in the rubber, which means the firing pin will move farther and the snap-cap loses is ability to stop the firing "early", which then has the same effect as the snap-cap not being there at all. So, I'd avoid the rubber ones and use snap-caps with the spring-loaded brass plate. Those should hold up much longer.

Again, no gun ever breaks if you dry fire it occasionally (say, after unloading for storage, etc). It's the repeated stresses of dry firing hundreds of times as part of dry firing practices that causes all this premature wear and breakage.

Dry firing with snap-caps does serve a useful purpose. It lets you get familiar with the manual of arms, the ergonomics, the trigger pull, the grip/hold, and doing so lets you identify problems early. For example, if you shoot to the left at the range and wonder why, you might find out during dry firing when you notice that at point of trigger release, your hold inadvertently moves the muzzle to the left a tiny bit, likely because you don't have a good grip wit the support hand (for example, support hand thumb not touching the slide). Dry firing can be very useful, but when you do it, use snap-caps to ensure a long life of your firearm.

 

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2 hours ago, PAULSHOOT said:

The main Question I have is:

Is it OK to dry fire weapons?? Thanks for any responses.

No. It’s Okay to occasionally dry fire a handgun if you need to check out a trigger or something. But steadily dry firing is not good for it; unless it was designed to do that. (None I know of yet, but I’m sure it will come)

2 hours ago, PAULSHOOT said:


Back to Dry Firing -- Personally, I don't like dry firing as I think it might affect the weapons performance or reliability. However, a book on Hand Gun Handling I have been reading suggests to gain Trigger Pull Accuracy -- do a lot of dry Firing. ??? 

Would like some opinions on affect on wear on the gun?

The components of the trigger group are not designed to be slammed together; they are designed to impact a soft brass primer

You won’t have any problems…. Until you do. Probably a total failure you will not be able to recover from without repairs.

2 hours ago, PAULSHOOT said:


Would also like to know if putting an empty cartridge in the chamber would help reduce wear?

No, once the primer is dented it no longer absorbs the impact.

2 hours ago, PAULSHOOT said:


I do realize there are dry fire cartridges one can buy (some kind of spring in them to duplicate a real cartridge, anyone familiar with those? 

Yes, they are called snap caps. I have them in all the calibers I have and use them if I need to dry fire (usually working on a gun).

2 hours ago, PAULSHOOT said:


I am getting better with the 9MM, but need a lot of practice (Trigger Pull I think is my main issue which is why I am on here asking about Dry Firing).

Dry firing may or may not help you; it depends on what your problem is. If you are anticipating the gun firing; it won’t help as your brain is smart enough to know whether you are going to feel recoil or not.

Edited by DaveTN
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Go buy some known quality US made ammunition and try again. Steel cases ammunition is bottom of the barrel as far as quality goes.

Something else you may not realize is the bullets are actually made of steel and then copper washed. Steel bullets DO cause premature wear and if you shoot a lot it will eventually damage your barrel. How fast the damage occurs depends on how much you shoot as well as the quality of the firearm. 

I only shoot steel cased in guns designed to shoot steel case, like AKs, or guns with easily replaced barrels like ARs.  

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Snap caps well solve your concern issues. A little more expensive but great alternative is something like the Laserlyte targeting system. It sounds expensive up front but factor in the cost off a couple range trips/ammo/etc. and it pays for itself pretty quickly. P plus you can have range time in your Lazy Boy! [emoji1]

http://www.cabelas.com/product/laserlyte-trainer-target/1341943.uts?Ntk=AllProducts&searchPath=%2Fcatalog%2Fsearch.cmd%3FrecordsPerPage%3D18%26No%3D0%26N%3D0%26nl%3Dtrue%26Ntk%3DAllProducts%26Ntt%3Dlaserlyte&Ntt=laserlyte


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16 hours ago, Smith said:

Snap caps well solve your concern issues. A little more expensive but great alternative is something like the Laserlyte targeting system. It sounds expensive up front but factor in the cost off a couple range trips/ammo/etc. and it pays for itself pretty quickly. P plus you can have range time in your Lazy Boy! emoji1.png

http://www.cabelas.com/product/laserlyte-trainer-target/1341943.uts?Ntk=AllProducts&searchPath=%2Fcatalog%2Fsearch.cmd%3FrecordsPerPage%3D18%26No%3D0%26N%3D0%26nl%3Dtrue%26Ntk%3DAllProducts%26Ntt%3Dlaserlyte&Ntt=laserlyte

 

Do you have that and use it? Do you put a laser in your own gun or use one of their laser guns?

As many ND’s as there seem to be anymore; I bet some of the stories on repair quote requests they get are pretty amusing.  biggrin.gif

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Your owner's manual should address dry practice with your firearm.  In general dry practice (firing) should not be harmful to quality firearms.  Many of the top shooters and trainers do so daily equaling  thousands of pulls.  If worried, use snap caps.  Also make sure no live ammo is in the area, have a safe backstop or safe area, and avoid interruptions.  Have a specific routine where you follow those rules and be safe.

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2 hours ago, chances R said:

Your owner's manual should address dry practice with your firearm.  In general dry practice (firing) should not be harmful to quality firearms.  Many of the top shooters and trainers do so daily equaling  thousands of pulls.  If worried, use snap caps.  Also make sure no live ammo is in the area, have a safe backstop or safe area, and avoid interruptions.  Have a specific routine where you follow those rules and be safe.

 

The question was “Is it OK to dry fire weapons??” The fact that you want to do it doesn’t change the correct answer to the question. biggrin.gif

Edited by DaveTN
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1 hour ago, DaveTN said:

Is that what you teach in your classes? Just how many dry fire rounds do think the top shooters do? My guess would be close to none. And if they did how long do you think the top shooters keep a gun? My guess is not long; and they have several. That is what sponsors are for.

I really wish we could get to the point on TGO where a discussion could take place without someone making it personal and attacking someone else.  I'm just about to the point of assuming it won't happen on its own and that moderators are going to have to start getting more involved.

As for the question, you would be incorrect.  It doesn't take much reading through the blogs of top competitors to see that dry-fire practice is a big part of their regimen.

 

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DaveTN, yes it is indeed how I teach my class.  I didn't come up with this on my own.  I have had many classes/instructors, some of 'fame', that highly encourage dry practice on a daily basis and have pulled the trigger quite a bit myself.  I would bet many of the best competition shooters in the state do so as well, but I haven't surveyed them. Which has more wear on the gun simply doing a dry pull on the gun 1000 times, or shooting it 1000 times with 30,000 cup of pressure with each pull?  There may be some wear&tear with both, but it is an excellent technique supported by many excellent instructors.  If one chooses not to do so, or if your owner's manual says don't.....then don't.    

'From Smith & Wesson FAQ

Can I dry fire my S&W handgun?

Q: Can I dry fire my Smith & Wesson?

A: Yes, except for the .22 caliber pistols which includes models 22A, 22S, 422, 2206, 2214, 2213 and 41. 

.22 caliber revolvers such as models 17, 43, 63, 317 and 617 also should not be dry fired.

Q: Why can't I dry fire my .22 pistol or revolver?

A: Dry firing a S&W .22 pistol or revolver will cause damage to the firing pin.

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26 minutes ago, TGO David said:

I really wish we could get to the point on TGO where a discussion could take place without someone making it personal and attacking someone else.  I'm just about to the point of assuming it won't happen on its own and that moderators are going to have to start getting more involved.

As for the question, you would be incorrect.  It doesn't take much reading through the blogs of top competitors to see that dry-fire practice is a big part of their regimen.

 

I didn’t mean it to be a personal attack; sorry it came off that way. I edited the post.

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I don't know about the experts, and rightly don't care.  But in most boot camps they practice dry-firing quite a few times, and the same rifles get used over (mine had no bluing) and over without the use of snap caps. As for me, I figure it won't hurt any so I use them, I use snap caps and dummy rounds as part of my practice, I mix them with my live rounds at the range too, to practice clearing malfunctions.

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Thanks for all your inputs. 

I think I will go with the opinion that it is not a good idea to do a lot (occasional is OK) of Dry Firing because you wear down the stoppage parts when no cartridge is present. I like OBIWAN's explanation in that regard.

For now, I rule out a lot of Dry Fire practice with the 9MM until I get some snap caps. 

I will look back in the TAURUS manual and maybe contact TAURUS for info. I don't think the manual addresses that issue, but I will check.  

I don't feel as much need to practice Dry Firing with the.22 RUGER rim fire pistol. 

Apparently, there is some opinion variations about the damage to weapons caused by dry firing with center fire weapons (damage to the stopping mechanism when no cartridge is present - some say OK and others say NOT OK), seems agreement that damage will result with rim fire weapons (as one reply explained due to the pin hitting steel vs brass).

I had hoped a spent cartridge might do the job  for the center fire, but can see as one reply put it that the center fire cartridge has been dented and would allow the pin to go further than normal.

Might be able to reinstall a rim fire cartridge (like my .22 Ruger) at a different position and then be hitting brass (kind of a slow routine). I have a little less issue with the .22 Ruger as it's trigger is not as hard to pull. Not that I am an expert marksman with it, but I can do with less practice and live Ammo is not as expensive as the 9MM. 

PS: Interesting comment about the steel casing bullets having a copper coated steel slug and producing wear on the barrel. I did not know the slug was steel.  

PSS: Accuracy - There is a target picture in the book I have been reading that discusses area of bullet impact and causes for the in accuracy. RH shooter hitting left and low  (between 6 & 9)  can be caused by trigger jerk. I think that is my main issue.  However, the last shots at 21 feet (target pictures I put in first post)  show more to left than low. They say can be caused by having trigger to near end of finger and not on the pad of finger (between tip and first joint).  Anyway, I am sure I have trigger pull issues and the hard trigger on the PT111 Millennium G2 makes it worse. Probably, anticipating recoil issues as well.

I am just having fun trying to improve. The  deal is it's a slow learning process when you start late in life ( 77 yr old) shooting pistols :-(.  

Edited by PAULSHOOT
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Just wanted to pass on some more controversy :-). U-Tube videos regarding Dry Firing (affect on gun is as here - different opinions). Also a couple good videos on how to practice and what to practice  (one is real good and includes some tactical ideas). I will include the links - more than needed, I did filter a bit and try to put the best ones first.  If interested, you can click them just go to u-Tube and search on Dry Firing. 

FIRST -- I did take one reply advice and look in the manuals for my pistols (DUH).  I had read manuals (every word) when I bought the guns, but every word did not remain in my brain.  GROAN

RUGER SR22 (rim fire of course) says OK to Dry Fire. Guess he designed for it.

Taurus TP111 Millennium G2 (my main interest for Dry Firing) says on page 7 "Dry Firing is bad for this firearm whether the hammer is block is engaged or not). Sad, I am not sure what they mean by Hammer Block (my dumb)? However, pretty sure they mean don't Dry Fire.

NOTE on Taurus - Part of the dis-assembly requires a trigger pull (when the slide is about 1/8 inch back in step 2). That is not specified in the book, but when I could not get mine disassembled and called TAURUS,  they said "Pull the Trigger" as part of step 2 which is with the slide back 1/8 inch (+/-). I did and it was easy to disassemble.

SO, I GUESS I will need Snap Caps.

The TIPTON Snap Caps are highly recommended as they have a substantial brass end for ejects, a primer pin hit area that is loaded with a spring inside the red 'plastic' cartridge. One thing I saw on U-Tube shows pitting on where the pin strikes the Tipton Snap Cap (guy said after 100s of rounds) and the rim on the brass does wear from ejects, but not as bad as some others (aluminum, etc.)   Around $15 for 5 of TIPTON 9MM on E-Bay with FREE Shipping.

Some other Snap Caps got bad reviews for leaving particles (aluminum and brass ones), and the ones with centers of silicon some thought became to pitted in center.There was one set that had 10 rounds for like $10 on E-Bay that looked like real cartridges, but had space whee primer would be. So, I don't see how that would help save wear on the gun. Would be nice to have 10 in magazine to cycle thru or mix with real rounds to practice misfires clearing.  

I don't know, but have decided on the TIPTON. Might call TAURUS and see what they have to say. No mention of Snap Caps in manual.   

BAD THING to me is -- to get the Taurus TP111 to Single Action mode, you have to rack the slide (done auto when you actually fire a live round or rack the slide to load the first round). Otherwise, you would have to rack the slide manually to get to single action mode (like with a mis-fire which would be the  case with a Snap Cap in Chamber). It automatically  goes to Double Action on a misfire when the slide does not rack.  So, can load 5 Snap Caps in magazine and have to rack after every trigger pull (to get single action), plus results in a lot of wear on the  brass rim from ejects. GROAN.  

U-Tube Links (probably, most of you have seen 'em anyway). I should filter thru them ( I did put what I thought are a couple better ones first). Anyway, get more opinion (not necessarily expert opinions) this way. All these different view sort of leave me confused.

Affect on gun and procedures for safety issues.
 
Good I Think (opinion) on his method for practice (tactical a bit)
 
Procedures James Yeager - Not the best (opinion), but somewhat interesting (3 parts to it). 
 
Gunsmith View Rifle Mostly (and some pistol at end)
 
Some Can and Some Cannot Dry Fire -- a fast presentation, almost too fast (opinion)
Discusse Myth of Dry Firing - another view I guess.
 

 

 
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Unless you're extremely wealthy or have access to unlimited amounts of someone else's ammo, you aren't going to get good at shooting, particularly handgun shooting, without dry fire practice.

Dryfiring most rimfire guns without a snap-cap/dummy rounds is a no-go. 

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Gotta agree with DaveTN...

A while ago someone likened it to swinging a hammer... pretty easy when you're hammering a nail... whether you hit the nail or your thumb (which of course I have NEVER done) is irrelevant... that act of hammering (the firing pin) when it connects with the nail (primer) is easy... 

Now swing that hammer at nothing at and try to stop it where the nail should be...... it get's a little harder... there isn't anything stopping it where the hammer (pin) wants to stop..   basically isn't that what dry firing is?

That instructor probably made it an overly simple analogy... but I am blonde and I have earned it and am likely a part of the reason why there are so many blonde jokes... but the analogy worked for me (and a few others)... 

 

Is dry firing OK?  Dang.. that goes down with the forever debates including Ginger or Mary Ann, Red or White, Dark or Milk, Yankees, Red Sox or Everyone Else, Amsoil vs. Synthetic vs. Dino oil....   Some things there will always be differences of opinion... so as long as this debate goes on... that means there isn't a definitive RIGHT answer... so why take a risk of weakening the firing mechanism of something that one day may be called upon to save the life of you or your family?  So snap caps for me... 

 

Oh, and Mary Ann over Ginger, Dark over Milk and Red over White.. .  (so I must be a smart blonde! :doh:)

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23 hours ago, PAULSHOOT said:

Thanks for all your inputs. 

I think I will go with the opinion that it is not a good idea to do a lot (occasional is OK) of Dry Firing because you wear down the stoppage parts when no cartridge is present. I like OBIWAN's explanation in that regard.

For now, I rule out a lot of Dry Fire practice with the 9MM until I get some snap caps. 

I will look back in the TAURUS manual and maybe contact TAURUS for info. I don't think the manual addresses that issue, but I will check.  

I don't feel as much need to practice Dry Firing with the.22 RUGER rim fire pistol. 

Apparently, there is some opinion variations about the damage to weapons caused by dry firing with center fire weapons (damage to the stopping mechanism when no cartridge is present - some say OK and others say NOT OK), seems agreement that damage will result with rim fire weapons (as one reply explained due to the pin hitting steel vs brass).

I had hoped a spent cartridge might do the job  for the center fire, but can see as one reply put it that the center fire cartridge has been dented and would allow the pin to go further than normal.

Might be able to reinstall a rim fire cartridge (like my .22 Ruger) at a different position and then be hitting brass (kind of a slow routine). I have a little less issue with the .22 Ruger as it's trigger is not as hard to pull. Not that I am an expert marksman with it, but I can do with less practice and live Ammo is not as expensive as the 9MM. 

PS: Interesting comment about the steel casing bullets having a copper coated steel slug and producing wear on the barrel. I did not know the slug was steel.  

PSS: Accuracy - There is a target picture in the book I have been reading that discusses area of bullet impact and causes for the in accuracy. RH shooter hitting left and low  (between 6 & 9)  can be caused by trigger jerk. I think that is my main issue.  However, the last shots at 21 feet (target pictures I put in first post)  show more to left than low. They say can be caused by having trigger to near end of finger and not on the pad of finger (between tip and first joint).  Anyway, I am sure I have trigger pull issues and the hard trigger on the PT111 Millennium G2 makes it worse. Probably, anticipating recoil issues as well.

I am just having fun trying to improve. The  deal is it's a slow learning process when you start late in life ( 77 yr old) shooting pistols :-(.  

 I posted a pic of that on another thread, these are available to download but you can shoot at any target with a bull and use this as reference;

 

 

 

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Chat'ed with a rep on Taurus Web Site.

Dry Firing the TP111  9MM is not recommended unless Snap Caps are used.  

They recommended TIPTON or A ZOOM.

From reviews and a U-Tube Post, I decided on TIPTON. Ordered on E-Bay $14.40 for 5 rounds.

Hate that gonna have to rack slide after each trigger pull to stay Single Action. This gun goes to Double Action (automatically) if a misfire happens  (which would be like a Snap Cap in use - misfire). 

Thanks for all the information -  eventually I got to a decision. 

 

 

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Now I get a clean screen to post final reply. :-)

I also bought 5 Traditions Snap Caps at Dick's Sporting Goods as I was waiting for the TIPTONs from E - Bay. Because I had a $10 reward card and nothing else I wanted, I bought 5 more Snap Caps. Around $8 with tax. I figured I would have 10 to put in magazine. 

By the way -- the Traditions look EXACTLY like the TIPTONs.  

Not to good with 10 in magazine I found trying to cycle by hand racking does not work well for me (seems I have trouble racking with enough force to get a good reject and load of the next round -- get a lot of jams).

So, I mostly have been practicing Double Action Trigger Pull on the same Snap Cap (Taurus designed to go to Double Action with a misfire), or have found can point the gun down and rack back to a stay back position (empty mag) and then make sure the same Snap Cap is in the chamber and practice a Single Action Trigger Pull.

Guess, I did not need 10 Snap Caps unless they wear out fast. 

 

 

 

 

 

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Dry fire is absolutely fine for a centerfire handgun. You don't need to spend money on snap caps, save it for ammo. It will help you shoot better, just be sure you are using a proper grip. If you aren't sure about how to grip a pistol properly let me know and I'll send you some articles. Don't just stop with trigger control, there are lots of dry fire drills that will help with draws, magazine changes, target transitions, shooting on the move, shooting from awkward positions like cover over prone and other fun things.

 

I have over 60,000 rounds through this gun and 10 times as many trigger pulls in dry fire. I think I finally broke my trigger return spring around 20,000 rounds which would have been 220,000ish trigger pulls. I feel very certain you will have no issues with your firearm due to dry fire.

IMG_0324 (1).jpg

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