TresMon

Hi guys, I wrote some very technical in-depth hand loading articles. They are posted on another forum. I'm sure some of you guys here will appreciate them so I'm linking them up. Now for you hecklers: I'm not saying everyone should, wants or needs to split all the hairs I do in the articles. Just take it to whatever extreme your personally satisfied with. The hot link is to the first of a 5 section article, but they are all right there together... Hand loading for Long range 1: brass case prep - Sniper's Hide Forums

Greetings guys, Class went great @ Bass Pro last weekend. The word's out! I have requests to do the class for the Nashville guys here on the board, Birmingham, AL, N. Atlanta and VA. If anybody would like me to run the class.seminar in their location, just get together some guys and we'll hold it near you. E-mail me @ nativemant@yahoo.com for a info sheet.

Thanks guys. It was a pleasure to meet you all.

This is confusing. A three digit Savage model number means it's a long action. but a .223 is a short action round. Are you sure you don't have a model 10? Otherwise pull up EGW (Evolution Gun Works.) Look at their pickle scope rails. Weaver style rings works on them but you have far more slots to choose from. = Lots of mounting options. EGW Savage RB (Round Back) Picatinny Tactical Rail Scope Mount - $39.99 : Evolution Gun Works , World Class Precision Parts If you need help I do gun work and am by that way often for pick up. Tres

Thanks Quigley! Let's move further discussion here guys: http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/tactics-training/52875-after-class-comments-review-tresmons-long-range-class-seminar-bass-pro-2-6-11-a.html

I wanted to say thanks SO much to everyone who attended. You made it fun and asked GREAT questions. I hope you all learned and gained from our time. Thanks again, Tres

Try that at 950! : ] Glad you have had good success pard'ner! T

Class is tomorrow!

LOL Agreed.

Tres MonCeret. Hence = "tresmon"

Cute. I have a kestrel and "Shooter" for android as well which is very similar. Let your batts run dead or get a little water in your phone and it takes a dump on ya. Then where ya at? No to mention an EMP burst.....

and if none of that makes ANY sense to you, you need to be in my Long range shooting class @ Bass Pro Shop, Sevierville, TN This sunday @ 9am. I'm also going to try to have a class in nashville in the next 4 weeks. Stay tuned.

Let's ALL stop doing it wrong. (wind call verbage) - Sniper's Hide Forums

Two of those & a string makes a kid smile!

Class would be $115 pre-paid/pre-registered. ($130 day of at the door) It includes a 40 page student manual in a binder I have written, which costs me $100 to print for a typical class size. I'm quite busy with the student manual and need to get back to editing and finish printing the rest of it. But off the top of my head: Experience/training: I shot my first 1000 yard match @ age 12, at ORSA- Oak Ridge Sportsman's assoc. Seems like yesterday but it was over 20 years ago. Been shooting rifles off & on competitively ever since. Heck I have even shot 2 perfect scores @ 1000 yards with a 20" barreled AR-15 in .223. (With many witnesses) I have shot nearly every style of competitive venue out there that involves powder based weapons. I have competed in Archery as well, even a- believe it or not formal spear throwing compete twice. I have been competing in some format with a firearms since I was 7. I was in the NRA Junior competitive program as a kid. The last few years I have participated in "1000yd league" @ ORSA; We meet every monday evening during daylight savings time months and practice @ 1000yds weekly. I'm mostly into 1000 yard NRA F-Class and tactical matches right now. "F-class" is a form of bench rest shooting, but instead of being fired off a heavy cement bench, it's fired from the prone position off the ground, making it, (to me) the next best thing to a tactical match. Per "field" shooting or UKD (unknown distance): It used to be called "sniper matches" but that seems taboo now so it's called tactical matches or UKD. I of course hunt at long range. Not the longest shot, but my favorite was with a girlfirend. We were sitting under a cedar tree over looking a LONG field. She noticed a deer at the tree line on the other side, at the narrowest section of field. I told her to range it with the laser. She got several readings and we averaged it to 413 yds. I dialed the proper elevation, held .2 mils into the wind and squeezed off the round. The wee little AR barked. The deer jolted, ran 20 yards straight towards us and crashed, with not so much as another quiver. That shot was with a little .223 AR wearing but a 16" barrel, shooting (HOT!) fine tuned handloads with Sierra 65 grain Game King bullets.. I hit within 2" of where I was aiming with that little rifle. The girl firend kept looking at me, back to the deer, back to me- I was "da man" that day. ; ] Most of my training experience has been one on one teaching/coaching a shooter right there at the gun. So I have a lot of real world experience in teaching.

I have written a 40 page textbook for the students of my class. I'm quite busy with it and need to get back to editing and finally printing it. But off the top of my head: Experience/training: I shot my first 1000 yard match @ age 12, at ORSA- Oak Ridge Sportsman's assoc. Seems like yesterday but it was over 20 years ago. Been shooting rifles off & on competitively ever since. Heck I have even shot 2 perfect scores @ 1000 yards with a 20" barreled AR-15 in .223. (With many witnesses) I have shot nearly every style of competitive venue out there that involves powder based weapons. I have competed in Archery as well, even a- believe it or not formal spear throwing compete twice. I have been competing in some format with a firearms since I was 7. I was in the NRA Junior competitive program as a kid. The last few years I have participated in "1000yd league" @ ORSA; We meet every monday evening during daylight savings time months and practice @ 1000yds weekly. I'm mostly into 1000 yard NRA F-Class and tactical matches right now. "F-class" is a form of bench rest shooting, but instead of being fired off a heavy cement bench, it's fired from the prone position off the ground, making it, (to me) the next best thing to a tactical match. Per "field" shooting or UKD (unknown distance): It used to be called "sniper matches" but that seems taboo now so it's called tactical matches or UKD. I of course hunt at long range. Not the longest shot, but my favorite was with a girlfirend. We were sitting under a cedar tree over looking a LONG field. She noticed a deer at the tree line on the other side, at the narrowest section of field. I told her to range it with the laser. She got several readings and we averaged it to 413 yds. I dialed the proper elevation, held .2 mils into the wind and squeezed off the round. The wee little AR barked. The deer jolted, ran 20 yards straight towards us and crashed, with not so much as another quiver. That shot was with a little AR wearing but a 16" barrel, shooting (HOT!) fine tuned handloads. I hit within 2" of where I was aiming with that little rifle. The girl firend kept looking at me, back to the deer, back to me- I was "da man" that day. ; ] Most of my training experience has been one on one teaching/coaching a shooter right there at the gun. So I have a lot of real world experience in teaching.

Okay squeaky wheel gets the earl. I'm looking for a meeting hall in the Nashville area currently for a class

Yeah same here. I kill to eat. I would not kill groceries just to predator hunt. However I read about wildlife biologist who killed a mated pair of coyotes and dug up their den. They discovered 14 fawn deer skulls in the den. 14 fawns dead from just two 'yotes. I will kill grocery killers to save on the grocery population. It's known far & wide that fawn deer & Turk Polts are some of the favorite yote foods. Just so happens to be the most popular hunted groceries that walk our woods.

By your own logic you present a skewed and just plain wrong statistical analysis. Do not PROPAGANDIZE impressionable readers here & elsewhere. Like BigJ said earlier more legally killed deer have been killed on this planet with a 30-30 rifle than any others, and per your logic & proposed 25cal minimum req. satisfy's moral obligation of "sufficient kill power." But from the same stats I assure you that more deer, thousands & thousands more deer have ran off, suffered & died and been unrecovered from larger than 25 cal arms than have from sub 25 cal arms. Your propaganda is like that that ployed against the motorcycle industry. The blanket statement is made: "Motorcycles kill more people than automobiles do." The sheeple that make up population that don't stop to think for themselves merely nod and trudge onwards following the furry well dingle'd rectum in front of them and go on hoping the population is headed in the right direction. However the people that think for themselves note that on the national Dept. of Trans yearly report that thousands and thousands more people die in automobiles than motorcycles each year. I hate propaganda.

Exactly. People who purchase ammo often pick the WORST bullet for the task. Example, doesn't a "V-MAX" sound so much better than an old dated "PSP" ? (pointed soft point) Yet a v-max is a good varmint bullet and poor deer bullet. A old PSP is a fine deer bullet. Shot placement is every hunters moral & ethical requirement and bullet SELECTION follows secondly, not cartridge selection. The collective minds of the ballisiticians @ Seirra bullets say 700 ft.lb. of energy is a good rule of thumb to ethically kill deer. A .223 has that at 300 yards at least. This whole plague of uneducated hunters buying ammo by no other means than ultra flashy Madison avenue marketing and getting the wrong bullet (as in the pointy part of the overall assembly of a loaded round of ammo) in the otherwise correct cartridge that fits their rifles chamber is the reason I wrote my article. http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/hunting/52531-good-humored-look-terminal-ballistics-bullet-selection.html

WHAT? Is that the admission line of the "I can't shoot Anonymus" program? As far as the deer I have taken with rifles I have never killed one with bigger than a .243 that I can remember. I'm 6 for 6 with my .223 AR-15. 6 single shots for 6 dead deer. The furthest a deer has ran was 20 yards and folded with no so much as another quiver, and that was when my AR was wearing but a 16" barrel (at the time) and the shot was made at 413 lazed yards before a divorced witness. As in we were to divorce a year later. No sir, what needs to be implemented is that to buy a hunting license you must qualify at the standard range of the weapon you intend to pursue game with as done overseas in various places.

Killin Science and bullet selection for the layman. A fun but educational look at terminal ballistic science. by “TresMonâ€( ‘net name) Tres Monceret “â€Out of curiosity,*how can a game warden tell if a deer was shot with*a muzzleloader or a rifle?â€â€ Well besides the obvious anybody would know- the entry wound size & shape- it's forensics. *A low velocity big bullet is more of a mauler internally; it's just kind brute force mashing its way through the meat. *A high velocity rifle bullet kills more actually by hydraulics than hemorrhage (blood loss/circulatory damage.) Most modern hunter knows that "energy kills" that is energy is the biggest baddest killer. *They just don't know how to explain it. * All animals are mostly water. So think of this. Imagine hanging a water proof full sized punching bag up outside thats full of 3 day old mash taters. You know the ones that have increased their Viscosity some. *Now shoot a scalpel through it.* What did we observe? *The bag did not move/swing much. It was not a dramatic looking event. *We have a hole through both sides of our bag that is leaking pretty fast. And if we were to dissect the bag and Mash Taters we would see merely slits through the wound "CHANNEL". But the "hole" or wound channel is tight. Meaning from the elasticity of the M.Taters "meat" the channel drew back up on itself, not 100% but mostly. There's your broad head,spear & Atlatl killed deer. (Yes spearing is STILL legal and actually STILL done in a few states. A few of my hard core wilderness survival friends do it.) This is *death by hemorrhage alone, or bleeding out, internally & a little externally. Sure the deer experienced some energy, but no more than a major league batter getting beamed in the shoulder by a fast pitch. Not enough to kill or long term injure. So now let's move to big bore pistols & muzzle loaders.*So we shoot our hanging tater bag with a .357mag, .41 magnum .44 Magnum Etc. or a Front Stuffer. * Now we have energy doing some amount more of the killing than hemorrhage. And we have not just a wound channel now but also wound cavity.*What did we observe? The front of the bag was displaced or caved in a good bit from the energy. The whole bag is swinging some back and forth. *We have a small hole all the way through our bag that did not seal back up. This is our wound channel. But the front side of the hole or entry side is where our channel is larger than bullet diameter *and it slowly tapers down as we move deeper through the channel. *This is the PERMANENT wound cavity. To explain Temporary & Permanent wound channel I need to explain the hydraulic effect of a bullet. The hydraulic effect of a bullet hitting the watery meat and core of a animal: Newton's law says "reckin for every tough lick thar's a equal & *opposite nuther tough lick." *So we observed in our Front Stuffer shot on the bag the surface of the bag was displaced. Thats energy from the bullet being dispersed into our target. So lets say we were shooting a .451" *45 cal. slug. *If we shot a basically 1/2" piece of metal at the tater sack how come the displacement on the surface was so much larger in diameter than the slug? Energy! Energy does amazing things. Enter the temporary wound cavity. *When a moderate to very high energy round enters our taters (meat/flesh) the energy damages and destroys tissue far larger than the bullet diameter. Initially energy from the bullet "blows" a quite large cavity or space in the tissue. *But it does not stay this size of a space. The immediate size of the empty space or cavity is called the Temporary cavity. From the amazing engineering God designed into flesh- due to the elasticity of the flesh it will attempt to shrink back down and come back together. So this big hole or cavity we blew into the near side of our tater sack will immediately begin to shrink. And again we learned this is temporary cavity. But we transferred such a large amount of energy into the flesh that we destroyed much of it. Due to this though it will shrink back down a good bit, it will not shrink all the way back down to the actual bullet diameter hole the bullet drilled into the meat. This is called the PERMANENT wound cavity. *Here's a pretty good example of a temporary, permanent wound cavity and wound channel: [i'm referring to wound "channel" as the small bullet diameter hole that goes beyond the cavities.] So why does the permanent cavity exist far larger than the actual diameter of the bullet that created it? Why does the Temp. Cavity not shrink all the way to the physical bullet diameter that passed through? Well we already said because the immediate tissue was destroyed but lets take a closer look. We'll recap for a second. We shot a scalpel through our 100 lb. Mashed Tater filled punching bag. We ended up with a snug little leaking hole. This will kill the tater bag, but slower and it certainly will not be dramatic. We shot our bag with a front stuffer. *Cool. For a split second we caved in the front of the bag. The whole bag is swinging. More Cool. Now we got a *little bitty "junior sized" foot ball shaped hole in the near side of the bag/taters and a 1/2" hole all the way through. Way cool. Now let's shoot our tater bag deer simulator with an American favorite: the .270 Winchester. *If we could see the hit in slow motion we would see the waves of energy rippling the surface of the bag. It literally look's like the concentric rings coming from a stone dropped in still water. We significantly displaced the surface of our tater sack. It's swinging pretty good overall. *We go examine and see we have a full sized+ football shape "wound cavity" in the near side of tater sack and a bullet diameter hole the rest of the way through. *[cavity dimensions and "football size" references are not literal, nor dimensionally accurate nor have I ever shot “mashed taters.†They are merely used to illustrate to the readers mind familiar mediums and sizing/shapes, while conveying whats happening on/in target accurately overall. It's hard to draw a series of pictures in a readers mind, but in doing so with these familiar shapes/references I feel I have transferred the actual science and ongoings to the reader accurately.] So what is happening in that instant the bullet transfers energy into the medium? That's the hydraulics we were talking about. Essentially a violent water column radiating out from the bullet entry point.* From scalpel to bullet "energy wand": So the scalpel made no real cavities at all. Our high velocity rifle round made a serious temporary and permanent *wound cavity. So let me illustrate what this hydraulic water column does. Back to our hanging 100lb. mashed tater filled punching bag. This time we hang our tater sack in the bay of the high pressure car wash. We again are armed with our .270 Win but let's dump out our taters and fill our bag with well cooked green peas. These green peas represent cells. The individual cells tissue is made of. *When we introduce energy into tissue from a blow the water contained goes the equal & opposite direction,*vilonetly! Think of if we dropped $1.50 into the slot to activate the high pressure sprayer of the car wash. We stick the wand down into the peas and pull the trigger. What happens? The water pressure basically makes the immediate peas seemingly vanish, the closest mangle and the furthest effected by the water burst and leak. Thats a good verbal picture of what is happening to tissue when massive amounts of energy are transferred from a bullet to flesh due to hydraulic energy forces, and it's quite understandable that as amazing as bodies are- some tissue, i.e. the permanent wound cavity does not recover. So thus is the ways we actually kill targets. So what do we do wit this information? We wish we our military could shoot terrorists with expanding hunting type bullets! We can use our new found knowledge of energy transfer from bullets to mash taters to better select the weight and style of bullet we shoot. Bullet selection all depends the on the average size, weight and range of the mash tater sack we are hunting. You see there are three schools of thought with hunters. The first is the antiquated and Neanderthal thought: "make the biggest "hole" [wound CHANNEL] you can -all the way through the animal to produce maximum amount of (blood) leakage." And the second sounds so clean, sterile & harmless on the printed page: -Transfer all the energy.- Sounds ho-hum,boring.(But it’s incredibly devastating & violent!!!) The third school got high in the bathroom and don’t care. 
They just like to hunt. Think of this. A bullet moves because energy has been imparted to and into it. Once it leaves the bore pressure is relieved from the firing system and the bullet got what it gets and is now leaking energy slowly to the really low viscosity water we shoot through called air. If *you ever have a conversation with a bullet it will refer to same as drag.*If it runs out of energy it would stop forward motion in place, spent. (If there were no gravity.) *There! You get it! *Wait, you look uncertain. I'll give it to you: you want the bullet to stop. IN the target. Why? Transfer. Energy transfer. 100% wicked violent energy transfer. *You see if your bullet regardless of caliber, diameter, weight or speed passes through the target and travels beyond, it did not give you it's all. Any energy *the bullet had to travel beyond our tater sack was wasted, we could have dumped that left over energy into the mashed taters as well for even more/bigger car wash wand effect!! So there it is- with a high velocity high energy round we want a complete energy dump into our wild free range 12 tined Tater Sac we so carefully stalked. Thats why there are so many bullets to choose from for a given caliber. Enter bullet (a.) design & (b.) weight... Real world example. I know a well meaning green horn who was new to shooting, new to rifles and new to hunting. He went on a coyote sized furry predatorial tater sack hunt with a friend and was hooked. So he decides he needs a good rifle, camo and a few calls. *Talking about his new love on the job a co-worker offered to sell him a like new ultra- light weight 300 Win Mag complete with scope, for a incredibly low price. "Because it will kick yur teeth out the guy said." So our young green horn figured 1. "He could take it" and two all that power would for sure blast a dog sized fur covered flea infested mange pocked Mashed Tater Sack into the next Siriometer or so. He took the rifle. So Mr. G. Horn went and bought some 300WM ammo, on sale. *Winchester 180 grain Power Point factory loads. A real world MOOSE load. (He did not do the math I'm sure, I'll do it for him: 3500 ft. lbs. of car wash wand effect at the muzzle.) Looking at the big shiney menacing ammo I'm sure Mr. Horn was sure it would blast the doggish creature for at least a siriometer!! So after a while he calls me. “Man this thing really-REALLY kicks!†I chuckled having been there done that in my youth. I threaded his barrel and installed a nice muzzle break. He was really happy with the recoil reduction and off he went. Soon enough he made his first “I got one!†phone call to a buddy. But he was quick to tell me the critter just limped about 20 paces and died. No siriometer. I chuckled having been there and done that in my youth and explained bullet selection. You see had if Mr. Horn had hand loaded him some little bitty 110 grain Sierra hollow points at a anemic (for the Win Mag with this bullet) 3200 fps, he would have opened up that critter like a book displaying it’s most every deep and inner thing, literally. True the little bullet would had a good bit less energy: 3200 lbs. But it would given Mr. G. Horn it’s all! The little bullet would have disintegrated in the critter for a 100% energy dump, where as the Moose bullet that was actually used likely zipped right through with no “upset†commonly called expansion or mushrooming on behalf of the bullet in the 35 lb. target. After all that load was designed to hold together, burrow deep and energy dump in a dangerous big boned hardy built massive Tater Sac weighing upwards of 1700 pounds for the Alaskan-Yukon variety. Speaking of bullet upset, their is fascinating engineering that goes into bullet design. You see that dumb piece of metal we call “bullet†has no intelligence nor on board computer but must juggle the depth-of-penetration/ energy dump act to perform it’s best. And to compound this complexity it must do it anywhere in an extreme velocity spread. If we shoot our massive moose tater sack and the bullet disintegrates on the shoulder muscle we have wounded him, he’ll run off and we may have lost him and wasted the meat & and if he succumbs to the wound the life. If it zips through him without hitting a vital organ we again have wounded him and likely lost and wasted him. Enter bullet engineering. A bullet upsets and begins to expand. This ever increasing blunt frontal diameter increase increases the difficulty for the bullet to penetrate. This rate of expansion must be carefully controlled through inherent design to allow the bullet to expand slow enough so it can burrow 1. deep enough to get past the near side muscle and into the vital organs but 2. fast enough to not completely pass through the animal thereby wasting energy. That would be a feat of engineering if the bullet hit the mash tater sac at the same speed every time. But it’s always impacting at differing speeds. If we engage our 1700 pound marsh wading mashed tater sac at 220 yards the bullet will impact at far greater velocity than it will if fired from a long range hunter engaging our swamp tater at 1106 yards. Either way, the bullet must not under or over expand to penetrate sufficiently and energy dump. And amazingly they get It right most of the time! In conclusion bigger is not always better in regards to quick, clean ethical kills wether the subject of discussion be “which cartridge†or “which bullet.†Regards, “TresMon†[size:8pt]This article took considerable time & effort. It is presented here for free. Enjoy! However if anyone feels motivated to express appreciation a donation can be sent to the paypal account nativemant@yahoo.com. Thanks! Tres[/size]

Yep all classroom instruction. Class room & live fire courses run AT LEAST $200 per day, and you generally have to sign up for at least 2 days, more often three days= $600 skins, plus travel, plus several hundred rounds of match grade centerfire ammo. There are long range schools out there that do this. Rilfesonly.com Gunsite, Thunderanch etc. It approaches the $1000 dollar mark with incredible speed. That's not my deal. My deal is for the blue collar guy like me who will never be able to afford those institutions to have the same education & instruction at an affordable cost. Anybody can practice what they have been taught at their local shooting spot once they have been clearly educated on exactly how to proceed. I'm the blue collar working man's advocate...

Okay guys. Sounds good to me. I'll start looking for a location. The Bass Pro conference room in Nashville will likely be booked up, but I will check. Any body in that area that knows were we can find a suitable meeting hall, conference room etc with enough room for us and a dry erase board, etc. let me know and I'll inquire. Maybe we can have the class in March...

Hey guys in my former post announcing My LR class @ bass pro a few of you Nashville guys seemed to express strong interest in my having the class in middle TN. I spoke to this later in the thread but you guys disappeared on me! I figured you guys stopped reading that thread so I put this one up. I am checking to get a preliminary headcount to see if it's worth my while to get the logistics sorted out for having the class in/near Nashville. If I were to make it a go who'd like to be onboard? Thanks, Tres