Students with Learning Disabilities and Schools not geared to deal with them

[Guest WyattEarp]

Obviously, I'm a bit older than the typical college student, but I've had a rather difficult life in the classroom for reasons, until recently, I was unaware of.

warning: this is a bit of a long read, but it might be of help to someone you know who is going through the same thing, so if you have a bit of patience, bear with me and read it.

The reason I am asking this question is below in this "book" of an explanation that I've written, so again bear with me here.

Synopsis

I moved to Tennessee in August of 2007, I got fed up with Kansas City, the people, the politics, the weather, the taxes, and overall I just wanted something different, so . Instead of a job, I wanted a career, but I had no skills that were marketable, so the goal was to move down here to be closer to family, get a fresh start, pay off debt, and then get into a university or community college and work towards a degree. I had trouble in jr. high and high school making good grades, but I never really understood why.

Disaster struck 2 weeks after I moved here, while working for a furniture company, I had a fall and broke a hip and arm. was on work comp for 9 months, but I ended up getting a settlement which wiped out my debts...every last dime. I had been in the Army, and was injured, so I applied for VA Vocal Rehab, was accepted to the program. I then applied to MTSU. I decided to bypass community college, set the bar high, and reach for the stars. Looking back, probably should have done community college for 2 or 3 semesters to get the gen ed's out of the way, but hindsight is 20/20.

I knew when I started the spring semester at MTSU Jan of 2009, that I was going to struggle. Homework and tests have never been my strong suits...lab times are where I excel, and as much as I hate them, I write a damn good research paper. I did poorly in high school, and average in elementary school and middle school. After I was accepted to MTSU, I registered with the office of Disabled Student Services since I had a multitude of physical and health issues that qualified me for assistance in my classes, and I wanted to take advantage of all my resources that were available to me. After meeting with the lady who runs the DSS office, I discussed my learning difficulties in my younger years, and told her I wanted to be tested for learning disabilities. She referred me to the Psychology Dept which has a bunch of students who are Grad Students who can test people for mental and learning disabilities under the supervision of some of the Professors who have their doctorate degree's in Psychology. So I met with one of the Grad Students, I was evaluated and given a battery of tests. The results were not surprising, I was diagnosed with ADHD, short term memory problems, and a mild case of anxiety (usually I get uncomfortable around crowds of people I don't know).

The reason I wasn't surprised to learn all of this is, when I was 9, my grandfather bought me a model airplane kit (the plastic kind you get at Hobby Lobby) for my birthday, along with glue and paint. I tried reading the instructions to put it together, but there were quite a few steps I didn't understand, because the parts didn't look like the picture. The model airplane ended up not coming out too well. I didn't do the landing gear as it was too complicated for me and some other details got overlooked. A few years later, I got an erector set and one of those electronic/electricity experiment kits they used to sell at Radio Shack. I had issues with steps and instructions for the experiments, it ended up getting sold at a garage sale because it was something I didn't understand.

As I began to realize these things, I began to realize there was something going in my brain that made me learn differently than other people, but I didn't know what it was or what to do about it, and really at the time there wasn't much medicine available to do anything about it. My mother always told me I was normal like the other kids, and that i was no different than anyone else. I think she did it so I wouldn't feel inadequate, and in doing so may have done more harm than good (but I hold no resentment, because she did the best she could at the time with what she knew). So all this time, I had things going on that I was unaware of.

Finding out all this was like finding a key that would unlock a treasure chest...well almost. Knowing what I knew, I began to seek out help from teachers, professors, tutors, to overcome my learning disabilities. I wanted to do better, to study better, to get my homework done on time without procrastination, to not put things off till the last minute. I took the freshman seminar, which talks about utilitizing study groups, how to better develop study skills, I got into study groups, but still my grades were mediocre. I would get a "B" here or there, a very very occassional "A", but mostly C's, and only 2 "D's". As a result my grade point average is slightly above a 2.2. Now I'm not failing, but I don't have much room for error. With only 25 credit hours till graduation, it's time to put up or shut up, learning disability or not.

After last semester, I knew something had to change, but I wasn't quite sure what to do about it. I had already exhausted every resource I had. Disabled Students Services was providing me with notetakers for my classes, ability to record the lectures, extended testing time in a reduced distraction environment.

One of the biggest problems I've faced, is when I am in a classroom and a teacher is lecturing, my brain checks out. It's off at Yankee Stadium, and I end up missing critical information. I can be staring right at him, desperately trying to listen to everything he's saying and I miss about 90% of it. I have never done good on any test, save one...ironically it was the Missouri Hunter Safety Education Course Test...I aced it...to date it's the only test I have ever aced, either it was really really easy, or I just got really really lucky. In addition to spacing out with lectures, I also before I got a notetaker and was taking my own notes, I was never writing down the pertinent information, I was always trying to write down EVERYTHING, and would miss the important stuff, or directions on assignments.

So finally, the straw broke the camel's back after last semester. I had set a goal to get all B's last semester. It didn't happen, I got 3 "C's" and had to drop a class because I was failing it, and instead took a withdraw. I went to my doctor at the VA, and explained to her what's been going on since I was about 10 or 11 years old, told her I had exhausted every resource at MTSU, researched and explored alternative options outside of MTSU and had done all the little things I could (reducing my distractions, setting times for study, studying with groups from my classes, flashcards, tape recorder, creating my own study guides) and that nothing was working. She suggest I try adderall.

I was hesitant because I've never been a big believer in using medicine to solve your problems, and I think if you want something bad enough you can find a way to overcome it without medicine, but in my case, I want to finish school really badly, and I'm so close, but I've done everything in my power to be a better student, make better grades and learn, but my brain just can't process the information as a person without these learning disabilities can. So I agreed. In June I was started off with 5 mg, in July it went to 10 mg, in August it was 15 mg, and now I'm at 20 mg.

Amazingly, it is working. I have seen a big difference in my ability to focus, get the information I need, my homework has been getting done ON TIME or ahead of time. I just took a test in my digital animation class last Friday, studied hard for it and I got an 86. That's the first test I've taken at MTSU that I got above a 79% on. I was ecstatic. I came back down to Earth on Tuesday, when I got the test back in my Marketing Class (which also brings me to the point of this thread). I had studied hard for the test, read all the chapters, and even re-read some parts I struggled with, still I got a 70% on the test, and I was pretty disappointed. I discussed it with the teacher, and she said I was still doing better than 34 of the 70 students in the class, because 34 students got a grade of D or F on the first test. The other 36 (to include myself, got a C or better). She said I should be pretty happy I did as well as I did, and I almost retorted that I would never ever be happy with mediocrity, but I bit my tongue. She is aware of my ADHD, my short term memory, and with how her grading scale in the class is composed, 80% of our total grade is based off of test scores. 60% for the 5 tests we have, 20% for our final, and 20% for our Marketing Project we have to do before the end of the semester. So I asked if there were any additional projects I could do to replace my lowest test score with, she said no. I asked if she could print off the questions I missed on the tests, so I would have a study guide, she said no. basically she refuses to make any accomodations of any sorts and she keeps citing the same thing over and over. "It wouldn't be fair to the other 69 students in the class to give you special accomodations, and not give them any".

And this is where I completely disagree. If a person has documented learning disabilities, where they don't learn in the same way as other students without the learning disabilities, then how can anyone reasonably expect that student to ever be more than mediocre at anything he or she does? Why should I have to accept mediocrity because a teacher refuses to do what she's paid to do...and that's to teach to all students, to help them learn.

Through my time at MTSU I have found I am a visual learner, I learn better by seeing a demonstration and repetition. It's incredibly difficult for me to read 3 chapters in a book on a subject and then go take a test on it and do anything better than average because of the short term memory, as I don't have enough time to commit what I read to memory. With 3 to 4 chapters assigned to read per week, it's virtually impossible for me, plus throw in 3 other classes to that mix.

You can't give take a group of 10 people, 9 which can see, and 1 which is blind, and give them all a driving test or any other visual test, and expect the blind man to be able to pass the same test, it's impossible.

So my question to you and I'm sorry I wrote a novel to get to this point, but I felt if the reader got the WHOLE STORY, he or she might have a better understanding of the questions below, so he/she could give an informed answer.

Questions:

1.) Should students with learning disabilities be held to the same academic standards as students without learning disabilities?

2.) Should students with learning disabilities be held to the same learning and standardized testing procedures as the student's without learning disabilities?

3.) Is it discriminatory for a school that expects students with learning disabilities to be able to do the same work, in the same manner as student's without learning disabilities?

4.) Do you think schools (elementary, jr. high/middle school, high school's and colleges/universities) are adequately prepared to deal with students with learning disabilities?

5.) Is is discriminatory that schools have not taken a different approach to how they educate disabled students?

I think anyone who wants to and has a personal desire to go to college should have the right to do so (and in this country, anyone does). I recognize that college is not for everyone, it's hard, it's challenging, and that some people just aren't college material.

That's not it at all in my case, I want this...I want it so badly, I've been willing to do anything in my power and means (honestly of course) to accomplish my goal and I've exhibited that. I won't stop until I get the diploma, even if it delays my graduation and I have to retake a few courses to get better grades to boost the GPA up. I won't give up.

But after researching all I have on my learning disabilities, going to the lengths I have to be proactive and HELP myself, I still get frustrated that I run into stone walls with teachers and school policies that simply do not understand what a student with a learning disability is going through and refuses to make any accommodations of any kind, or give perhaps a different set of assignments in lieu of testing, because she says it wouldn't be fair to the other students. These schools and teachers don't know what to do when it comes to students with learning disabilities, and somehow there has got to be some change with how our school systems teach kids, while providing the same opportunities to students with physical, mental and learning disabilities.

My GPA is not a result of laziness, or not turning in homework or assignments, or not putting in an effort, or staying up too late drinking beer and partying or simply because I'm stupid and don't apply myself. It's a result of my test scores in all of my classes, which my test scores have all been pretty consistent the past 2 1/2 years.

Study's continue to find that standardized testing is not a quality way of finding out a student's knowledge or to measure what they have learned, and by contrast, foreign students are doing drastically better in classrooms overseas as opposed to American students. Yet our schools and education system continue to take the same approach, doing the same thing over and over, while the bright minds of our future continue to slip away.

http://www.homelandstupidity.us/2006/07/10/standardized-tests-an-american-obsession/

I'd like to hear some other thoughts on what I've written and the points I've brought up. Discuss.

[Jonnin]

It sounds like you have done well with what you have to work with. As far as I know, if you can prove you have a disability, the school MUST accomodate you (if a public school). Period. The teacher can be over-ridden on this. As one example, one of my peers in school was in a wheelchair and as she and I were often in the same classes, I just came to expect that the room for the class would be wrong every semester... and it usually was, the room moved to accomodate her. Others took tests as you did, privately with extra time or whatever. This is required by the ADA and because public schools take tax money, they must accomodate the students. So that one teacher is wrong and if you made a case for it, you would likely win, but it could lead to aggravations later on (she may take it personally). If you can pass the class without making a stink, that may be better for you -- schools are much like politics and teachers can really mess up a student who they dislike, and that dislike could just be "professer X said he was trouble/stupid/petty/etc". For your questions: 1) Yes, 100% is 100%, to give a student an A+ grade for a 75% grade is to take away from the disabled students who EARN the 100%, and it takes away from the normal students, the grade must stand as it is earned so the degree is respected and for many reasons. 2) I am ok with special accomodations up to a point. Extra time, private room, oral exam instead of written, all those things that are often done are good things to happen. 3) No. The degree is the credibility of the school. Imagine if you were earning your MD to be a brain surgeon... and they let you pass because of your issues and you kill 10 patients, is that OK because you are disabled? Or if you are an engineer and the bridge you make collapses because of it? You MUST be held to the standard because that degree gets you a job, and those who hire you expect you to be able to do the work, and if you cannot, that reflects poorly on the school AND all the other students who have that degree from that school! It is simply not ok to let someone who is disabled have a pass. To put it another way, I am fairly smart and certainly not disabled, but there are things I cannot do, and other things I cannot do *well*. Just because I can program a computer or do complex math does not qualify me to be a lawyer, for example --- my memory is poor and I would not do well in law where memory is critical to success. Should I be given a passing grade at harvard and the bar exam anyway, because it would be a nice thing to do for me? 4) Probably not. A lot of LD problems are treated as behavior problems and the students sent to a special ed class to get them out of the way, rather than to help them. The poor sap with a 20 IQ who can barely find the toilet alone is lumped in with the "hyper" guy who has trouble concentrating or whatever. Its not very well set up. 5) I do not like the whole discrimination topic. It is over-used, people are all the time claiming discrimination when none is to be found. Schools can do better with their special needs students, for sure, and many colleges do a decent job because they know if they do not help out the student will stop paying tuition and stuff. Discrimination is not based off what the schools have not done, it is based off what they WILL NOT do. If the school denies you a reasonable request (say, a seperate room to take a test and more time) that is being unwilling to help which is discrimination. If they are willing to work with you but deny an unreasonable request (say you demand 24 hours to do your test as a take-home effort) that is not discrimination. It really comes down to specific schools and instances --- there is no answer without specific things to talk about.

[Guest nicemac]

RE:"Questions:

1.) Should students with learning disabilities be held to the same academic standards as students without learning disabilities?

Yes.

2.) Should students with learning disabilities be held to the same learning and standardized testing procedures as the student's without learning disabilities?

Yes. And No. Should a blind student receive the test in Braille or verbally? Yes, Should a visual learner get the test in pictures or video? No.

3.) Is it discriminatory for a school that expects students with learning disabilities to be able to do the same work, in the same manner as student's without learning disabilities?

No.

4.) Do you think schools (elementary, jr. high/middle school, high school's and colleges/universities) are adequately prepared to deal with students with learning disabilities?

I do not believe they are adequately prepared to teach students period, disabled or not.

5.) Is is discriminatory that schools have not taken a different approach to how they educate disabled students?

No.

I think anyone who wants to and has a personal desire to go to college should have the right to do so (and in this country, anyone does). I recognize that college is not for everyone, it's hard, it's challenging, and that some people just aren't college material."

First, I admire your hard work, your motivation and your transparency to the people on this board.

I disagree that anyone has a right to a college education. I agree that everyone should have the opportunity to go to college (and in this country they do) if they can qualify. But there is no right to a college education in this country.

A college diploma is supposed to be a testimony to your ability to work in a certain field. Employers depend on that testimony to determine your degree of readiness to handle a job. If every student was taught, tested and evaluated using a different scale, what would a college degree mean?

Most jobs do not require a college degree. (The medical field is an exception) Oh, most employers want a degree in your hand before they will hire you, but an internship, apprenticeship or similar experience works [better] in most cases.

The idea that everyone should go to college is a bad one, and it is reinforced every day by the media. For a lot of jobs, it is a four year waste of time and money.

[Guest Broomhead]

I'll answer your questions at the end. First, though, let me just say that I know how you feel and where you are coming from. I was diagnosed with Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD, ADHD without the hyperactivity) and Hypersomnia around 2007ish, well into my adult years. My dad and oldest brother (a Dr of Osteopathy (D.O.)) both have ADD as well, both were diagnosed in their adult years. After talking with them about "symptoms", i.e. numerous unfinished projects, feeling like I was always channel surfing on 30 different TVs, trouble keeping up with conversations, and after having a "Eureka!" moment, I went and talked to my Dr. and explained everything to him. He agreed that it sounded like ADD and agreed to having me try a newish medicine that acted like a CNS stimulant, but without the physiological side-effects (jitters/shakes, rapid heartbeat, high BP). I have only needed one dosage increase since then.

In school, since 1st or 2nd grade, I always had issues with paying attention, concentrating, and comprehending what I read. In middle and high schools things were easier, at least if it was something I was interested in. In high school I learned how 'cheat' on reading comprehension tests (read the questions then scan the article for the answer). I also figured out how to offset the ADD a little by utilizing my almost photographic memory; I excelled at visual learning. In Math, Science, or anything other subject that could be readily demonstrated visually, I could basically just sit at my desk and either doodle/draw or just watch and I'd "absorb" the information. All the other classes I took, i.e. English, History, Health, were hell; I never got above a C and usually got Ds. I excelled at tests in the "visual" subjects because I could easily and readily recall the info needed. However, the other subjects' tests were pretty bad. Even today, when I forget to take my meds, I can't concentrate or think clearly, have trouble learning through reading, etc. So, in a way, I know where you're coming from.

"1.) Should students with learning disabilities be held to the same academic standards as students without learning disabilities?"

Yes, as stated earlier, an A is an A. Its those academic standards that make the degree/career.

"2.) Should students with learning disabilities be held to the same learning and standardized testing procedures as the student's without learning disabilities?"

Yes/No. Standardized testing is a joke, it will never reveal the desired results because everybody learns and recalls information differently. I had a friend that was very, very, smart, however, he panicked and had anxiety attacks when he took tests and usually barely passed them. As far as allowing students to have reasonable accommodations in testing, note-taking, etc., I agree.

"3.) Is it discriminatory for a school that expects students with learning disabilities to be able to do the same work, in the same manner as student's without learning disabilities?"

No. Its not discrimination to expect students to all learn the same material and do the same work. Again, reasonable accommodations are perfectly fine when it comes to learning the information to begin with. Older students (high school and up) need to figure out how they learn best and do everything absolutely possible to utilize that knowledge.

"4.) Do you think schools (elementary, jr. high/middle school, high school's and colleges/universities) are adequately prepared to deal with students with learning disabilities?"

No. I don't think anyone is adequately prepared to do that, not even the parents of the students. They too must learn how their child absorbs information the best and do what they can to ensure their child learns that way, even if it means that they go over all of the material again in a manner that the child can comprehend.

"5.) Is is discriminatory that schools have not taken a different approach to how they educate disabled students?"

No. Schools do the best that they can with the standards, rules, resources, information, and staff that they are provided. Not every teacher is cut out for the job, just like anyone in any other career.

I know you probably haven't heard what you wanted to hear, unfortunately, this is the world we live in now. 20-30 years ago, you would have been labelled a problem child/student and most teachers/professors would go out of their way to get you out of their class.

Food for thought...What do they call the person who graduated at the bottom of their class in Med School?

Doctor...

[Guest WyattEarp]

It sounds like you have done well with what you have to work with. As far as I know, if you can prove you have a disability, the school MUST accomodate you (if a public school). Period. The teacher can be over-ridden on this.

I'm doing the best I can, and trying to do better.

She is in accordance with the school policy and ADA. I am afforded the quiet testing environment, and extended exam times and notetaker, and I do utilitize that. however, I don't believe it's enough, and here's why.

My father, can look at manual, a set of instructions, or a diagram of something, put it together and make it work with relative ease. He can listen to someone lecture, take down the appropriate notes, remain focused while that person is speaking, and then he can go implement what he just learned and display it without further assistance other than a set of instructions/manual.

I do not possess that ability. My brain operates differently. If someone demonstrates the parts and how they connect and function (by assembly, video demonstration tutorial and if I get hands on practice then I can do it.). I recognize and remember things by physical visual association. If I tried to do the same task my dad did, it would take me a lot longer to do the same task.

As one example, one of my peers in school was in a wheelchair and as she and I were often in the same classes, I just came to expect that the room for the class would be wrong every semester... and it usually was, the room moved to accomodate her. Others took tests as you did, privately with extra time or whatever.

This is required by the ADA and because public schools take tax money, they must accomodate the students. So that one teacher is wrong and if you made a case for it, you would likely win, but it could lead to aggravations later on (she may take it personally). If you can pass the class without making a stink, that may be better for you -- schools are much like politics and teachers can really mess up a student who they dislike, and that dislike could just be "professer X said he was trouble/stupid/petty/etc".

correct, but I don't believe any student should ever have to be content with just doing enough to get by. that smells of mediocrity, and it's not fair to the student at all. some are ok with it, but for those wanting to excel and be the best that they can be, it's frustrating. if it was just this one class out of all of the classes I've taken, i probably would be ok with it, but there's been several classes like this because of my L.D.'s.

For your questions: 1) Yes, 100% is 100%, to give a student an A+ grade for a 75% grade is to take away from the disabled students who EARN the 100%, and it takes away from the normal students, the grade must stand as it is earned so the degree is respected and for many reasons.

I completely agree with this, and I hope what I said didn't lead to you believe that was what I was saying.

This happened to me in my digital animation class last semester. The book for the class was methodically written in chronological order of operations, but it was not redundant. For a normal student with no LD's, it is not an issue.

For me, it is an issue because of my short term memory. The steps that are taught in Chapter 1, in regards to menu's, hotkeys, and certain functions are not repeated in the 2nd chapter. To compensate, I had to go on youtube and get video demonstration tutorials to fill in the gaps, so my brain could process the information and associate what I'm doing visually. To someone not affected by short term memory, they never realize it, and if you tried to explain it to them, they think you're crazy because they don't understand (which is what happened last semester when I tried to explain to my professor, lol...he just didn't understand the problem I was having).

2) I am ok with special accomodations up to a point. Extra time, private room, oral exam instead of written, all those things that are often done are good things to happen.

3) No. The degree is the credibility of the school. Imagine if you were earning your MD to be a brain surgeon... and they let you pass because of your issues and you kill 10 patients, is that OK because you are disabled? Or if you are an engineer and the bridge you make collapses because of it? You MUST be held to the standard because that degree gets you a job, and those who hire you expect you to be able to do the work, and if you cannot, that reflects poorly on the school AND all the other students who have that degree from that school! It is simply not ok to let someone who is disabled have a pass. To put it another way, I am fairly smart and certainly not disabled, but there are things I cannot do, and other things I cannot do *well*. Just because I can program a computer or do complex math does not qualify me to be a lawyer, for example --- my memory is poor and I would not do well in law where memory is critical to success. Should I be given a passing grade at harvard and the bar exam anyway, because it would be a nice thing to do for me?

I don't want a "pass" on anything, and I don't believe any school should ever given any a pass in any class if the student hasn't earned it.

I want to earn it just like anyone else, but should I have to accept and be content with a mediocre grade based on the fact that my brain processes and absorbs information differently than other students, because there aren't ample and reasonable teaching alternatives available to students with learning disabilities? This is where I believe that schools and teachers aren't doing enough, and in part why i believe it's discriminatory.

I'm merely requesting an alternative way of learning the same material as everyone else. A visual/physical/hands on way to learn what is being taught and then demonstrate that ability, instead of testing. Is that not reasonable?

4) Probably not. A lot of LD problems are treated as behavior problems and the students sent to a special ed class to get them out of the way, rather than to help them. The poor sap with a 20 IQ who can barely find the toilet alone is lumped in with the "hyper" guy who has trouble concentrating or whatever. Its not very well set up.

agreed.

5) I do not like the whole discrimination topic. It is over-used, people are all the time claiming discrimination when none is to be found. Schools can do better with their special needs students, for sure, and many colleges do a decent job because they know if they do not help out the student will stop paying tuition and stuff. Discrimination is not based off what the schools have not done, it is based off what they WILL NOT do. If the school denies you a reasonable request (say, a seperate room to take a test and more time) that is being unwilling to help which is discrimination. If they are willing to work with you but deny an unreasonable request (say you demand 24 hours to do your test as a take-home effort) that is not discrimination. It really comes down to specific schools and instances --- there is no answer without specific things to talk about.

good points all of them.

2.) Should students with learning disabilities be held to the same learning and standardized testing procedures as the student's without learning disabilities?

Yes. And No. Should a blind student receive the test in Braille or verbally? Yes, Should a visual learner get the test in pictures or video? No.

care to elaborate on the 2nd part of your answer? I'd like to see where you're coming from on that one.

I think anyone who wants to and has a personal desire to go to college should have the right to do so (and in this country, anyone does). I recognize that college is not for everyone, it's hard, it's challenging, and that some people just aren't college material."

First, I admire your hard work, your motivation and your transparency to the people on this board.

I disagree that anyone has a right to a college education. I agree that everyone should have the opportunity to go to college (and in this country they do) if they can qualify. But there is no right to a college education in this country.

Thanks, it's definitely been a journey, and a good one at that. Lot's of different experiences, mistakes made, lessons learned, good things, opportunities, learned about myself a lot and how to overcome the obstacles in my way, and I have no regrets. It's something I wanted to do for myself and I'm glad I made the decision I did.

I probably should have worded the comment about everyone having the right to go to college a little bit differently. What I should have said is " every student should have the opportunity to be able to go to college if he or she chooses and they qualify."

A college diploma is supposed to be a testimony to your ability to work in a certain field. Employers depend on that testimony to determine your degree of readiness to handle a job. If every student was taught, tested and evaluated using a different scale, what would a college degree mean?

The idea that everyone should go to college is a bad one, and it is reinforced every day by the media. For a lot of jobs, it is a four year waste of time and money.

but what does it say when using the same baseline method for everyone results in foreign students being well ahead of American students in the classroom? We know not everyone is the same. No one thinks the same, learns the same way, or applies critical thinking the same way.

US students halt academic 'free-fall,' but still lag in global testing - CSMonitor.com

obviously that same standard actually ISN'T working as it should be. I don't understand why we continue to use it. we have the ability to recognize students who learn one way and those who learn a different way. why not send students that learn better with a certain method to schools that teach that way, and send the other students to the schools that teach the other way?

Just because one student learns visually and through repetition and hands on experience doesn't make him or her any less intelligent or incapable of completing the taks, than the person who can read and take verbal lectures, notes and instructions and implement them. If the end result is the same, but the method is just different, then I guess don't see the big deal in making an accomodation?

I agree with your final sentence, and certainly hope I didn't come off that way that I think along those lines. Every person should do what is best for themselves in terms of work or education, and I know many who are successful with self-owned businesses that never attended college, and I know those that went and got degree's, and aren't working in the field they studied, and are making $12 an hour doing something entirely different that makes them happy. to each his own.

But I just wonder how many people who didn't do good in high school and haven't discovered they have a learning disability are out there, that want to go to school and get a college education, but are afraid to because they don't know what the problem is, they don't know what to do about it, and they don't how to overcome it, they are afraid of failure, or think something is wrong with them.

After what I've learned the past few years at MTSU, both in the classroom and about myself, I don't believe there's anything any person CAN'T do, if they truly set their minds to, find that motivation, that drive and they want it bad enough. I didn't always use to think that way. when I was younger, I thought college would be too much for me, and i was right at that moment in time, had I gone to college at 18-21 years old, I would have flunked out, because I didn't have the drive and motivation, it would have been wasted money and time, but I recognized that, and so I didn't.

[LagerHead]

That's not it at all in my case, I want this...I want it so badly, I've been willing to do anything in my power and means (honestly of course) to accomplish my goal and I've exhibited that. I won't stop until I get the diploma, even if it delays my graduation and I have to retake a few courses to get better grades to boost the GPA up. I won't give up.

This right here is what you should be focusing on. The rest is just the stuff you have to go through to reach this goal. Whether or not the accommodations being made for you is a matter of opinion, and on this subject only yours counts. If they can't or won't do more, then I would suggest you decide which is more important: grades or the diploma. In other words, don't climb the hill if you ain't willing to die on it.

I think you know the answer already and it sucks that you have to bust your ass to learn the same things that others may not have trouble with. But it's your lot in life. I'm ugly and bald. Nothing either of us can do about it except do the best with what we have.

[Guest nicemac]

RE:"care to elaborate on the 2nd part of your answer? I'd like to see where you're coming from on that one."

Some people learn visually, some learn by hearing and some by doing. I don't believe that each student should get a test that caters to his style of learning. That's all.

[Guest WyattEarp]

I'll answer your questions at the end. First, though, let me just say that I know how you feel and where you are coming from. I was diagnosed with Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD, ADHD without the hyperactivity) and Hypersomnia around 2007ish, well into my adult years. My dad and oldest brother (a Dr of Osteopathy (D.O.)) both have ADD as well, both were diagnosed in their adult years. After talking with them about "symptoms", i.e. numerous unfinished projects, feeling like I was always channel surfing on 30 different TVs, trouble keeping up with conversations, and after having a "Eureka!" moment, I went and talked to my Dr. and explained everything to him. He agreed that it sounded like ADD and agreed to having me try a newish medicine that acted like a CNS stimulant, but without the physiological side-effects (jitters/shakes, rapid heartbeat, high BP). I have only needed one dosage increase since then.

In school, since 1st or 2nd grade, I always had issues with paying attention, concentrating, and comprehending what I read. In middle and high schools things were easier, at least if it was something I was interested in. In high school I learned how 'cheat' on reading comprehension tests (read the questions then scan the article for the answer). I also figured out how to offset the ADD a little by utilizing my almost photographic memory; I excelled at visual learning. In Math, Science, or anything other subject that could be readily demonstrated visually, I could basically just sit at my desk and either doodle/draw or just watch and I'd "absorb" the information. All the other classes I took, i.e. English, History, Health, were hell; I never got above a C and usually got Ds. I excelled at tests in the "visual" subjects because I could easily and readily recall the info needed. However, the other subjects' tests were pretty bad. Even today, when I forget to take my meds, I can't concentrate or think clearly, have trouble learning through reading, etc. So, in a way, I know where you're coming from.

"1.) Should students with learning disabilities be held to the same academic standards as students without learning disabilities?"

Yes, as stated earlier, an A is an A. Its those academic standards that make the degree/career.

"2.) Should students with learning disabilities be held to the same learning and standardized testing procedures as the student's without learning disabilities?"

Yes/No. Standardized testing is a joke, it will never reveal the desired results because everybody learns and recalls information differently. I had a friend that was very, very, smart, however, he panicked and had anxiety attacks when he took tests and usually barely passed them. As far as allowing students to have reasonable accommodations in testing, note-taking, etc., I agree.

"3.) Is it discriminatory for a school that expects students with learning disabilities to be able to do the same work, in the same manner as student's without learning disabilities?"

No. Its not discrimination to expect students to all learn the same material and do the same work. Again, reasonable accommodations are perfectly fine when it comes to learning the information to begin with. Older students (high school and up) need to figure out how they learn best and do everything absolutely possible to utilize that knowledge.

"4.) Do you think schools (elementary, jr. high/middle school, high school's and colleges/universities) are adequately prepared to deal with students with learning disabilities?"

No. I don't think anyone is adequately prepared to do that, not even the parents of the students. They too must learn how their child absorbs information the best and do what they can to ensure their child learns that way, even if it means that they go over all of the material again in a manner that the child can comprehend.

"5.) Is is discriminatory that schools have not taken a different approach to how they educate disabled students?"

No. Schools do the best that they can with the standards, rules, resources, information, and staff that they are provided. Not every teacher is cut out for the job, just like anyone in any other career.

I know you probably haven't heard what you wanted to hear, unfortunately, this is the world we live in now. 20-30 years ago, you would have been labelled a problem child/student and most teachers/professors would go out of their way to get you out of their class.

Food for thought...What do they call the person who graduated at the bottom of their class in Med School?

Doctor...

i appreciate your honesty, and it's not about hearing what I want to hear, I just wanted some other perspectives so I could try to see this from a different point of view. It's always easier to look through your own eyes, and say oh that's the way it should be, but when you get the other perspectives, then it gives you the ability to evaluate the problem as a whole and objectively.

so in part, while it may not be discriminatory and I wasn't sure if it was or not, it kind of seems that way to me, i think we can all agree that schools don't do enough as a whole to help EVERYONE learn in a way that is productive for them to reach their full potential, and that they just try to do the best they can. No system is ever perfect, nor will it ever be. but this has made for a good conversation and I've learned a few things already.

nothing is ever handed out or free, if you want it, you have to go get it, and sometimes it may be harder for you than it is for others, and you have do things you really don't want to in order to bridge the gaps, but that's just part of life. I've come this far, I shall finish the journey. for the most part, the really hard stuff is over, most of the stuff I'm learning now, is fun stuff that's mainly hands on. This marketing class is one of my final principles classes (if not the last), so I won't be having too many more classes where there is a lot of testing and reading chapters, most of my classwork left over the next 3 semesters are project based, teamwork skill building, and meeting deadlines, and I can handle that. Lot's of video editing classes, video production, web design, interactive media content design and placement,

The only thing that really bothers me, is thinking about if there had been alternative teaching methods available, how well COULD I have done when I started on this journey. But as they say, hindsight is always 20/20. At least I know what the problem is and how to overcome it. I just hope I pass this class, because I don't care to take it over lol.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Congrats working so hard! It will be rewarded.

Motivation, drive, work ethic can be learned/taught to some extent. However, perhaps motivation may be an individual talent similar to intelligence, memory, or physical ability?

If a person is a slow learner but a hard worker, it is often interpreted that the person is "moral and virtuous" for deciding to be a hard worker. On the other hand a fast-learning lazy person is often interpreted as "morally weak" for deciding to be lazy. That may be true. OTOH some people may have as little control over motivation, as they have over ease of learning or physical strength?

Hard workers have the advantage in the real world. A few people can get by on natural talent alone, but naturally talented lazy folk are severely disadvantaged compared to hard workers. Of course the worst off are the lazy ones with few talents. If you keep up the hard work and dedication then you will succeed!

I suppose schools should be adaptable to the characteristics of the students. OTOH, either in school or after graduation, the student's job is to find a niche where he is most likely to excel. A person with better reasoning and poorer memory might tend to do better in physics (where one must deal with numerous concepts) wheras a person with better memory and poorer reasoning might tend to do better in biology (where one must remember numerous names and details). Neither fellow is better or worse. Just different talents which match different subject matter.

Some language-intensive majors have very poor mechanical or mathematical abilities and could never be an engineer. OTOH some excellent engineers and architects are almost functionally illiterate.

As long as you can gut it out and graduate, after your first few years the GPA won't matter. Your actual work performance will be the only thing that matters. Tis important to find a career and position which matches your talents. Companies are perhaps more "accomodating" today toward people with various disabilities, but if the company needs somebody to fit a round hole then a square peg won't do. They would rather hire a round peg than go to a lot of trouble helping a square peg get the job done. However there are other companies/positions where a square peg is required and round pegs need not apply.

A fellow told me about a big aircraft company who hired a bright quadraplegic engineer, to prove the company's PC dedication to the disabled. Many special accomodations had to be made to allow the quadraplegic to do the job and eventually they had to hire him an assistant who did most of the actual work. Just to prove that the company is friendly to the disabled.

Dunno how many companies are willing or financially able to bend over backwards just to prove a point. In many fields the learning required after graduation is more intensive than the learning required to get the degree. Many newly-graduated engineers are a useless drag on the payroll for years until they learn enough to finally deserve the salary. You need to find a career that best matches your method of learning because there will be constant learning to do.

I have bad memory and have had to find niches where excellent memory is not required.

Edited September 28, 2011 by Lester Weevils

[bluedog]

(Bias warning: I'm a special education teacher.)

I understand what you're saying, but you've got your terminology a little mixed up. There are 13 federal categories of disabilities. One is Specific Learning Disability (which it sounds like you do not have.) Students with ADHD that significantly affects their ability to do well in school typically qualify for special education under the Other Health Impaired (OHI) category, not SLD.

Questions:

1.) Should students with learning disabilities be held to the same academic standards as students without learning disabilities?

Yes. By definition, students with Specific Learning Disabilities (SLD) have average abilities (IQ scores) but have deficits in one or more performance areas (reading, writing, math). It is often necessary to accommodate these needs by presenting the material in a different manner that allows the student to learn and display what they've learned. ADHD is not a learning disability, but yes, same academic standards. They take the same TCAP as the other kids.

2.) Should students with learning disabilities be held to the same learning and standardized testing procedures as the student's without learning disabilities?

Procedures, testing format, time limits, environment? NO. Students who have a reading disability should not be expected to read a science or math test. Students who qualify for special education can have various testing accommodations by law such as extended time, read aloud, scribe, braille, small group or alone...

3.) Is it discriminatory for a school that expects students with learning disabilities to be able to do the same work, in the same manner as student's without learning disabilities?

Same content, no. Same manner, yes. A common accommodation for students with ADHD is to shorten assignments (think quality work over quantity of work), provide extra time, or modify the type of assignment as long as the same content is being measured.

4.) Do you think schools (elementary, jr. high/middle school, high school's and colleges/universities) are adequately prepared to deal with students with learning disabilities?

Oh, buddy, how times have changed since you and I were in school. If a K-12 student is struggling we test the heck outta them and have team meetings until we're blue in the face. Then if they do qualify for special education they have an Individualized Education Plan written for them. If they don't, they still have some sort of support team that makes sure classroom teachers are doing what they can in the classroom to make the student as successful as possible.

5.) Is is discriminatory that schools have not taken a different approach to how they educate disabled students?

They have, all thanks to IDEA law. Unfortunately, that doesn't follow you to college and only applies to students in public schools through age 21. After that, you're covered by ADA section 504.

I wanted you to be aware of these resources. There's a well-known and well-regarded advocacy website called Wrightslaw.com Here are some articles you might be interested in:

College - Continuing and Higher Education - Wrightslaw.com

Section 504 - Accommodations for College Students by Dr. Mike Brown - Wrightslaw

Help! My son with LD graduates. Who will write his 504 when he loses his IEP?

Must Colleges Waive Course Requirements for Students with Disabilities? Should We File a Section 504 Complaint?- Wrightslaw

[bluedog]

And great job advocating for yourself, not being afraid to ask for help, and not being ashamed. We're all gifted in something, and we're all disabled in something!

[Warbird]

Congrats to you for your effort. we are all created equal only in liberty, not in ability. Knowing what you know now about your abilities, strengths and weaknesses, you should do a great deal of self examination in regards to what you are studying and what you plan to do for a career. Major in something that will cater to your strengths and look for a career that again will cater to your strengths. Way too often I see college grads who look for a career that they think will pay them a lot of money down the road, but that in reality is not something that caters to their natural skill set.

In a sense I made the same mistake myself. I was determined to be a pilot or an aerospace engineer. I studied aeronautics and suffered through the intense mathematics the entire time. My father, who flew in the navy, always found math easy. I wasn't geared that way. In the end I added a second major of political philosophy. I am a naturally gifted writer, with extremely good logic and reason skills. I also have a photographic memory and found my other studies more enjoyable and far easier, primarily because I played up to my skill set. I also found I was very good at developing relationships, building trust in people and could apply my understanding of complex issues and convey them in easy to understand terms.

Needless to say I never worked as an engineer, though I did know the material, I would never have been happy. I did fly for a while, but decided I didn't want to do it for a living. I can't say my studies never helped as I did work as a lobbyist for the aerospace industry for a time, but ended up lobbying for other things and writing policy books.

[Guest pfries]

First off wonderful job in doing what you are doing, and in accomplishing it so well.

Secondly one of my five children has been diagnosed with ADHD; he is 10 years of age.

I too was against the medications but it became necessary as he got further along inschool.

Although it has helped things are not perfect and he struggles but if you spend any amount of time with him you realize how intelligent he is. He is probably the brightest of all my kids with his baby brother yet to be determined as he is only three.

Questions:

1.) Should students with learning disabilities be held to the same academic standards as students without learning disabilities?

Yes for the reasons already stated, I tell my son that he should be happier than most as he has to work at it so much harder. I also remind him that when school is done he will not receive breaks throughout the rest of life so it is good preparation for what is to come.

2.) Should students with learning disabilities be held to the same learning and standardized testing procedures as the student's without learning disabilities?

Yes with certain reasonable accommodations.

3.) Is it discriminatory for a school that expects students with learning disabilities to be able to do the same work, in the same manner as student's without learning disabilities?

I do not think it is discriminatory although I realize it can feel almost cruel at times.

The bar cannot be lowered unless you want an honorary degree.

4.) Do you think schools (elementary, jr. high/middle school, high school's andcolleges/universities) are adequately prepared to deal with students withlearning disabilities?

No I do not feel that most of the staff in most of the schools are appropriately trained and or educated to deal with pupils that have needs beyond that of the average student.

5.) Is it discriminatory that schools have not taken a different approach tohow they educate disabled students?

I would not say discriminatory, I do feel especially within much of the public system that they fall very short of what I would call reasonable expectations.

Keep plugging at it I have no doubts in my mind after having read many well thought out and put together posts and arguments from you that you will succeed in your endeavor.

Pat