OngoingFreedom

Gallatin council discussed opt out, unanimously decides to "do nothing." Guns in parks affirmed!

First time travelling with a firearm on an airline. When I first got my Glock 23 earlier this year I also purchased a small, key-locked safe that would have a small footprint in my suitcase and meets the TSA’s requirements: hard-sided, locked, not easily pried open. It came with a cable to anchor it, which I thought was thoughtful, and the case was able to accommodate the pistol and an extra magazine. Unfortunately the case stunk of mothballs so I removed the foam inserts and left them to air out over several days. This helped but the smell never completely went away. I discovered that if I placed the pistol and the magazines “just so” I could squeeze two magazines into it. I then gave myself a brief scare when I couldn’t unlock it. After a bit of tapping, some hitting and very measured, forceful rotation of the key I managed to unlock it and swore I’d never try two magazines in there like that again. The time came to try the process out, as I was leaving Nashville and heading to Orlando to attend annual airplane training. Before the flight I studied TSA’s website about firearms and ammunition. At first I thought I’d just put both loaded magazines into the safe. This is allowed by the TSA. I decided not to: 1) because I didn’t want a repeat of the earlier issue, 2) I carry 13+1 (fully loaded magazine plus one round in the chamber) so where is that extra round supposed to go, and 3) although only implied on the TSA’s website I read on various airline websites that they want primers protected. I took out a loaded magazine and looked at the back of the top cartridge and thought “that is one exposed primer:” Loaded magazines can be placed in holsters if they are secure. I use a Smart Carry Holster that doesn’t really secure the spare magazine when it isn’t on your body, plus it doesn’t hold two magazines, so that was out. I thought about buying some magazine holsters and looked also at what Cabela’s et al had to offer but wound up saving the box from some practice rounds and put the ammo into that. After emptying the Glock I decided to put one empty magazine back in the well of the gun and stored the extra magazine with it in the safe. I have read about some horror stories that some have had their guns stolen in the bags so I used the cable tether that came with the safe and secured the safe to the back of the suitcase: I wrapped it around one of the square tubes that house the suitcase handle extensions: Then I loaded my suitcase with clothes and toiletries with the safe connected to the tether but laying outside and put it in last, which was a good thing as it would be inspected later. I stuffed the ammo box securely between some clothes. Since this was my first time I also decided to carry the cable lock that comes with new Glocks as added insurance in case I got hassled: I didn’t install it in the gun but just left it loose in the suitcase. Also as a precaution I printed the TSA firearm policy as well as Southwest’s firearms and ammunition policy and stuffed those in as well. Feeling prepared I headed to the airport. I arrived 1 ½ hours early to mitigate any issues that might arise. I walked up to the “full-service” counter after a very short wait (passenger traffic was light) and told the agent I was declaring an unloaded firearm. She asked if this was the first time I’ve ever done this (was it that obvious?!) and I said it was. She produced a small white card with red lettering “Southwest Airlines Firearms Declaration Tag”. I saved the one from the return trip: She explained I should fill out as much as I could and she would fill in the rest. PNR# means “Passenger Name Record” and they want you to put your confirmation number there. MCO and BNA are the airport codes. I filled it all in after asking what PNR was and skimmed the back side before signing. I missed one thing on the declaration but it didn’t turn out to be a problem. As I was re-reading it later I was concerned to see that I had declared “1. The firearm(s) chambers are free of ammunition and the magazine clip has been removed (when applicable).” The first part was true but not the second! When I returned to Nashville at the end of my trip I made sure to not place the empty magazine back in the well. The reason I missed that tidbit is because neither the TSA’s nor Southwest’s policies on their websites mentioned anything about this. It was only on the card, so I guess this was a Southwest thing. She then asked me to open the safe. I expected her to want to inspect the gun to make sure it was unloaded but she sounded a little anxious when I touched it and said “No, that’s okay” and placed the declaration card in the safe, which I then closed and locked. I asked her for some extra cards so I could show up for the return trip prepared and spend less time. She then pointed me to the TSA baggage x-ray and I told the officer there I had an empty firearm in my baggage and would wait on the bag’s inspection (which the TSA website recommended I do). The officer put my bag at the head of the line while I waited nearby in case they wanted to inspect the safe. If I didn’t I ran the risk of having the bag being denied and not making the trip! Sure enough the officer on the other end of the machine had me hand the first officer my key so they could peek inside the case. I was unable to see what they were doing (I was still at the front of the machine) and by the time I thought to go observe their search they were done and were zipping everything up, handing me back my keys and told me everything was fine. After that everything went normally. From entering the baggage check line to clearing security with my carryon computer briefcase took about 20 minutes. In Orlando I waited until getting to my hotel to rearm myself. I placed the safe in the car with the cable strung through one of the LATCH anchors in the back in case I had to disarm going into a building that prohibited legal carry but that never became necessary. On the return trip from Orlando the check in went a little differently. The baggage agent wanted to see everything, including opening the ammunition box (even asking if it was the original packaging) and seeing the empty chamber of the pistol. Fortunately I had left the empty mag out of the pistol and had placed one in the case, one loose in the suitcase with that cable lock I didn’t need. This agent wasn’t nervous at all watching me handle the gun. After she was satisfied with the inspection she place the signed declaration card on top of the safe (not inside this time) and hopped over the baggage counter with my suitcase. She asked me to follow her and rolled the suitcase to an unused x-ray machine with two bored-looking TSA officers next to it. Apparently it was there for travelers like me. I thanked her as she returned to her counter while the officer sent it through the machine. After it exited he asked for my keys and also inspected the inside of the safe. The only thing he wanted to do was to press down on the foam around the weapon. He closed and relocked the safe and handed me back the keys, then took a probe with a white circular patch on it and rubbed it all over my suitcase. He removed the patch, placed it in another machine, determined there was nothing suspicious about the whole thing (like drugs, explosives), zipped up the suitcase and told me everything was fine. I went on my way. Once again from that point everything went normally. I’ll probably continue to travel with the extra cable lock just in case I encounter a really unconvinced agent but I’m sure I’ll never need it. --EDIT-- I just remembered that when returning to Nashville the TSA officer, after finishing his inspection, placed a small, circular sticker on the destination/claim tag of the suitcase. Unfortunately I didn't save the bag tag when I got to Nashville.

Gallatin City Council is meeting Tuesday, August 11th to pick back up the opt out vote that was deferred since last meeting. I plan to attend, and have just emailed one councilmember (the only one listed with email) and am mailing the others on the list. My letter:

Waitaminit, "armed" robbery implies the use of or threat of deadly force, right? Might not be too hard to sell to a jury.

I'm not satisfied the OP was answered in regards to the "Castle Doctrine," so I went to Wikipedia. This description seemed pretty good.

Ah, yes. The classic anti-gun rule-from-ungrounded-emotion and not from cold, hard facts. Crud.

92 to 8% or, 138 to 12. What was the council thinking?!?

I can just hear Bugs Bunny saying " "!

I think the newspaper is trying to keep the controversy alive. The "respond to this article" online always has high numbers of responses whenever they have a guns article.

I had, just an hour before the meeting, sent the Mayor a (obviously) hasty letter. I welcome your criticism of it. Mayor Graves, I am a resident of Gallatin, a registered voter, and a Handgun Carry Permit Holder. I understand that the city council will consider a handgun carry opt-out Gallatin Parks tonight. I ask you and the other members of the council to not opt-out. As a responsible citizen I am very cautious and careful with the responsibility of carrying my handgun. I carry it for my own protection and for that of my family. I don’t want to disarm to enjoy Gallatin’s park areas. I wish to enjoy my 2nd Amendment rights as many places as I can. Please don’t infringe on that right. Much has been said about the safety of other parks-goers. I ask you, why can a criminal carry a weapon illegally into our parks and I cannot? Part of the safety course that I took to get my permit says: 1. Always point my weapon in a safe direction 2. Never put my finger on the trigger until I have sights aligned with my intended target 3. Always treat a gun as if it is loaded, even if I know it is not 4. Be aware of the area around and beyond my target HCP citizens are statistically the most law abiding citizens in our community. Sincerely, [OngoingFreedom]

From the Gallatin city council minutes of the July 14th, 2009 meeting:

Here's the latest in this pointless poll: Yes. I won't go if guns are allowed. - 36.1% Yes. I won't go unless guns are allowed. - 36.1% No. I'll go in regardless. - 22.8% Not sure - 5.0% Total Responses - 504

I meant your reportin' here in this thread of your observations. S'all good. Thanks also to the twit,... er, I mean, tweeter, uh... that other guy who used twitter to tweet (it's all so confusing)...

As of 12:11PM: Should guns be allowed in areas where alcohol is served? Choice Votes Percentage of 462 Votes Yes 149 32% No 313 68%

TGO David, Thank you for your representin' and your reportin'

Rep. Maggart just replied to my email warning her about the Nashville Council trying to make an end run around the restaurant carry law. You know, the one where the council explored using beer permits to force restaurants to post the no handgun carry signs, the one that their attorney advised them was illegal due to state preemption? Anyway, here it is: Hello, (OngoingFreedom): Thanks for emailing me. I thought you might enjoy the article I wrote that was published yesterday in the Hendersonville Star News. Facts or Fiction about Tennessee's new Gun Laws There has been much misinformation put out about the Guns in Restaurants legislation and I wanted you to examine all the facts rather than the anti-gun spin put forth but some in the media. I think it is important that you understand the arguments the members of the General Assembly heard as this legislation was before us. FICTION: Everyone at O'Charley's, Chile's and Chucky Cheese will be armed. Indeed, for almost 15 years handgun permit holders have been armed in restaurants that do not serve alcohol or beer such as Shoney's, Cracker Barrel, McDonalds, House of Pancakes, Starbucks, and hundreds of other family restaurants but there is no history of civilian handgun permit holders causing problems for other patrons. The FACT is that criminals carry their guns without regard to restrictive possession laws. Criminals do not bother with handgun carry permits (HCP) because they cannot qualify. It is a FACT that the bad guys will not leave their guns at home. Criminals, particularly those with intent to commit more crime, will be armed with a willingness to do harm if that is required to carry out their crime or escape. The FACT is that there are over 230,000 law-abiding Right -to-Carry permit holders in Tennessee. In order to receive a handgun carry permit, these citizens have passed a background check, they have submitted to fingerprinting, they have taken and passed an 8-hour gun safety course and they have qualified with a weapon under the supervision of a trained professional. These civilian handgun permit holders are trained that the permit does not make them a law enforcement officer, a vigilante, or a hero - the permit is to enable them to carry a handgun if they choose so that they can protect themselves and their family if they become the victims of violence. FICTION: Everyone with a gun permit will be drunk and toting their gun at the "bar." The FACT is it remains illegal for a HCP holder to drink anywhere while armed. The new law allows a person with a HCP to carry in restaurants that serve alcoholic beverages but only as long as such person is not consuming alcohol. For this to be problem, one must assume that these same people would choose to violate the law and consume alcohol thus jeopardizing their HCP status. FICTION: All the bars and honky tonks will be the scene of the "Gunfight at the OK Corral". The FACT is that the term "restaurant" is defined in this law as a public place kept, used, maintained, advertised and held out to the public as a place where meals are served. The serving of such meals shall be the principal business conducted there. FICTION: Our legislators must be nuts to pass such an unproven and irresponsible law to allow guns in restaurants. The FACT is Tennessee now joins 36 other states that have similar restaurant carry laws that have experienced no significant problems. Some states have laws that allow HCP holders in bars, not just restaurants. Seven states that border Tennessee allow HCP holders to carry in restaurants. The provisions in Tennessee's new law are more restrictive than many of these states, some of which actual allow moderate consumption of alcoholic beverages such as wine. These states have not experienced problems because HCP holders are law-abiding citizens. If you have ever eaten at a restaurant that served alcohol in Kentucky, Alabama, Georgia, or any of the other states that surround Tennessee with the exception of North Carolina, you have eaten in a restaurant where permit holders were allowed to carry firearms. FICTION: There will be no place I can take my children out to dinner and we will have to stay home! The FACT is the new law allows restaurants to prohibit carrying firearms in their establishments by simply posting a sign. So, if the owner doesn't want legal HCP holders to carry in his restaurant, then he may post a sign that states "No Guns". Of course, those signs will not deter those who have a history of ignoring the law. FICTION: The Republicans have done nothing but pass crazy gun laws! The FACT is that all of these new laws have received strong bi-partisan support. Governor Bredesen's veto of the restaurant carry bill was overridden 69-27 in the House. And the Senate veto override vote was 21-9. Democrats have sponsored and co-sponsored several gun bills this legislative session, including the Senate sponsor of the restaurant carry bill, the "Guns-in-Parks" bill, the Firearms Freedom Act, the confidentiality law and a bill to allow retired judges with a handgun carry permit to carry a gun under the same circumstances as law enforcement officers. A Democrat sponsored bill to carry loaded guns in vehicles has passed both the House and the Senate. The bill to exempt the list of individuals in Tennessee that hold handgun carry permits from the Open Records Act is sponsored by a Democrat. In addition, the time we have spent on firearms legislation has been greatly exaggerated. We have spent hours debating bills that have an economic impact on this state, as well debating at length bills that will impact our public school system in a positive way. And here is another interesting FACT: Legislation to require a person against whom an order of protection has been issued to dispose of any firearms within two days through any lawful means was sponsored by Women Republican and Democrat House and Senate members. It also creates a Class A misdemeanor for a person to knowingly possess a firearm while an order of protection is in place. This bill was passed and has been sent to the Governor for his signature. Tennessee's Legislators have passed a significant number of bills relating to firearms this year compared to what has been passed in prior years. However, there are no bills simply promoting firearms. These are bills promoting the rights of the citizens and removing what we have determined to be unnecessary governmental restrictions on the rights of Tennessee's law abiding citizens. State Representative Debra Young Maggart 45th House District - Representing Hendersonville, Gallatin, and the Sumner County portion of Goodlettsville 230 War Memorial Building Nashville, TN 37243 615-741-3893 office 615-253-0350 fax Do you get the feeling that she reads these forums?!

hopefully to see how it's worked out elsewhere and maybe reconsider

12:23pm 7/13/09: Yes ban them 54% No 46% Total 1663 votes

As of 12:20 pm: 54 yes 46 no 0 other I guess that means at least 200 votes if it went to 0 other?

56% yes judge should stop the bill from going into effect 43% no 1% other

Never underestimate the power of a moron, Hex.

What's a bun gun? Sorry, couldn't resist!

Agreed. Didn't 20/20 "If I only had a gun?" criticize the for shooting past a child? And that was three shots fired, three holes in the BG.

Actually the ammunition may be carried with the weapon but must be either in an entirely enclosed magazine/clip (such as in a holster) or packed in fiber/wood/metal containers. They don't want the primers exposed to an accidental "tap". While not a TSA reg most airlines limit ammunition to 11 pounds, which I believe is a European limitation. The TSA's requirements are here. The case must be hard-sided, the weapon unloaded (you may have to demonstrate this). You retain the method of locking but it's a good idea to have the key with you when you check the luggage in case they want to confirm. The airline might have additional rules (like the 11 pound limitation) but generally stick with the TSA regs, at least the major ones do. I have heard the same thing about NY and do not plan to carry there. But I actually flew a small, private plane. The rules under which I fly, called 14 CFR Part 91 "General Operating and Flight Rules," do not restrict the carriage of a weapon in any fashion other than interfering with a flight crewmember.