Signal Mountain Town Hearing

[Good_Steward]

Signal Mountain is conducting a town meeting at the town hall on Monday, July 13 at 6:30 pm concerning concealed carry in city parks. I encourage all Signal residents, I know of three on here (me, mousegunner, and m4coyote - I hope there are many more), to show up and voice your opinions. I will be there, and will voice my opinion when the opportunity presents itself. Unfortunately, I believe that we will be in the role of the opposition opinion, which is even more reason to show. It's time to fight for what is rightfully, and Constitutionally, ours.

Cliff

[mousegunner]

I've thought about going, and saying something. I already write pro-gun editorials from time to time in the Times Free Press. However, I think this is not my chosen battlefield to die on. I totally agree that it is foolishness to pass an anti-carry law for people with permits. But that's not the issue I want people to think about whenever they see me or talk with me. If they tell me I can't carry in Signal Mtn parks, then I won't. I won't agree with it, and I won't like it, for sure. But that's the way it goes some times.

[Good_Steward]

Well, to each his own. I, personally, will stand up for ALL my rights. I don't particularly care which one of them people associate me with, because I'm proud of my pro-Constitution stance on all of 'em.

[mousegunner]

I am "pro Constitution" too. In particular I'm thinking about the Tennessee constitution. The details of which are laid out here and discussed. This is a long article, but worth reading....

THE RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS UNDER THE TENNESSEE CONSTITUTION: A CASE STUDY IN CIVIC REPUBLICAN THOUGHT

[Guest Glknknox]

I've thought about going, and saying something. I already write pro-gun editorials from time to time in the Times Free Press. However, I think this is not my chosen battlefield to die on. I totally agree that it is foolishness to pass an anti-carry law for people with permits. But that's not the issue I want people to think about whenever they see me or talk with me. If they tell me I can't carry in Signal Mtn parks, then I won't. I won't agree with it, and I won't like it, for sure. But that's the way it goes some times.

Nice.

Don't show your face and everything will be alright.

Why post about your anonamous responces but not show up in person?

Don't worry, somebody else will do it for you.

[mousegunner]

Actually, my newspaper editorials are not anonymous. Also, I'm not a true resident of Signal Mtn. I have no vote in that town. It's my mailing address, but I reside in Walden. Anyway, fighting for carrying in Signal Mtn parks is not at the top of my list. Everything gun-rights related is not of paramount importance. Some points ARE extremely important. But I don't think that one is. Particularly when I believe the reg will pass unanimously. I'll find another issue to wrangle over.

[cadillacdude1975]

how many parks does Signal Mountain have?

[FlyboyLDB]

.....Particularly when I believe the reg will pass unanimously. I'll find another issue to wrangle over.

Ditto. I know of several physicians and attorneys that live on Signal. I assure you the majority does not want guns around the children. Hamilton county and Chattanooga already passed their version. I would say every county, township and city in TN will follow. This bill was worthless. I agree with mousegunner - this fight will not be won on the local level. This bill will open doors for cities and counties to ban carry in other areas they deem appropriate - like restaurants that serve.

[Good_Steward]

Flyboy, It has to start somewhere. I will not take a defeatist attitude about it like some on here. I also know a few of those attorneys and physicians, two being my in laws, one being my wife, and several couples that my wife and I "get together" with, and not one has had a problem with my guns. As a matter of fact, most that have never been around guns show more curiosity than anything, and ask to learn to shoot.

So go tuck your tail between your legs if you want, but I will not cow down simply because I am in the minority!

[mousegunner]

Go for it, GS! I wish you well. But I note in your "public profile" you carry an XD .45, but that you do not have a handgun carry permit. You must have forgotten to update it. Also, I'm curious as to if you plan to carry to the town council meeting?

[cadillacdude1975]

Chattanooga and Red Bank HAVE NOT passed the handgun ban yet. Chattanooga has the meeting tomorrow (tuesday) night on lindsay street at 6pm and the park carry is listed on the agenda.

Red Bank discussed the issue last week, but it was deferred to the next council meeting in the middle of the month.

[mousegunner]

Signal Mountain has two or three parks. There is one by the Town Hall. One near the Signal Mountain Country Club. And one over near Short Creek and Shackleford Ridge Road. That's all I can think of now.

[Good_Steward]

Go for it, GS! I wish you well. But I note in your "public profile" you carry an XD .45, but that you do not have a handgun carry permit. You must have forgotten to update it. Also, I'm curious as to if you plan to carry to the town council meeting?

No, I do not plan to carry. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here? Look, I don't care what you decide to do. It's your prerogative, but I don't get why you mention that you write editorials(?) for the times free press, yet do not feel compelled to voice that opinion in person? I guess if it's editorials, it's anonymous, since they don't have names attached to their staff editorial columns. Whatever the reason, it's your reason. It's important to me because support starts at the local level. I do not feel comfortable waiting on the state or federal government to voice my position for me.

[mousegunner]

I'm sorry! I meant "letters to the editor" which always have the names of the writers. May God bless and support you in your efforts!

[Good_Steward]

Well Folks, I spoke my peace at the meeting. 4 people followed after me all expressing pro-gun sentiments. All seemed to be going well. No anti-gun nuts opposing. Then the bastards promptly voted 5 - 0 for a ban in parks. So much for the "voice of the people"

F$$$ all 5 of 'em.

[cadillacdude1975]

did you inform them that by voting to ban handguns in the parks, that also includes offduty and retired LEO as per this law from HR 218

SEC. 2. EXEMPTION OF QUALIFIED LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS FROM STATE LAWS PROHIBITING THE CARRYING OF CONCEALED FIREARMS.

(a) In General- Chapter 44 of title 18, United States Code, is amended by inserting after section 926A the following:

`Sec. 926B. Carrying of concealed firearms by qualified law enforcement officers

`(a) Notwithstanding any other provision of the law of any State or any political subdivision thereof, an individual who is a qualified law enforcement officer and who is carrying the identification required by subsection (d) may carry a concealed firearm that has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce, subject to subsection (

.

`(

This section shall not be construed to supersede or limit the laws of any State that--

`(1) permit private persons or entities to prohibit or restrict the possession of concealed firearms on their property; or

`(2) prohibit or restrict the possession of firearms on any State or local government property, installation, building, base, or park.

it is now as illegal for off duty leo and retired leo to carry in those parks as much as it is now illegal for the permit holder. i will state this tues night at the Chatt. city counsil meeting.

[mousegunner]

It is politics, pure and simple. The average Joe and Jane perceive guns as evil per se, especially the soccer-mom folks, of which there are MANY on Signal Mtn. The politicians know that. They will NOT offend the soccer-moms. I try not to offend them either. They are a force to be reckoned with.

[cadillacdude1975]

here is what i just sent all 9 members of the council:

Dear council members,

First off, I hope each and every one of you take the time to read this email, and not just scan over it or trash it because of the title. There is a sensitive issue up for debate and possibly a vote tonight, and I would like to take a moment of your time to explain a fw things from the "average tax paying joe's" perspective.

We all know that the Tennessee General Assembly passed a law recently that is about to go in to effect, and that law allows the law abiding citizens of this great state to carry legally owned handguns in to state and local parks provided the person has the Tennessee Handgun Carry permit, or a permit that this state honors. Tennessee honors all other states gun permits. That is millions of legal, law abiding tax paying family men and women who get up and go to work and come home every day to provide for his or her family.

This issue over legal carry of handguns that is up for debate tonight is a very sensitive issue, and I will not deny that one bit. My personal safety is my utmost priority and I took steps a few years back to ensure that I will not be a victim of some senseless crime.

Chattanooga has become a very violent city recently. There was a report on WRCBTV.COM last night over the recent amount of shootings that the Chattanooga Police Department has dealt with since June 1, 2009. If you missed that report, since 6-1-2009 there have been 13 shootings in the city. That my friends, is unacceptable. That number is too high, and the gang problem that is in this town is doing nothing but getting worse. Let me remind you that from what I have read, all these shootings have been committed by criminals who have no reguard for the law or anyone else.

You all have read the reports all over the internet, you all have read the facts. The law abiding legal handgun owners of this state have been carrying legally owned firearms for over 10 years. There has never been a mass shooting anywhere by a legal permit holder. Just last week, 4 men in memphis tried to rob at gunpoint a travelling jewelry salesman. What his would be assailants did not know, was the intended victim was a legal permit holder from a neighboring state. The 4 men approached the salesmen, he produced his own legal handgun and shot 2 of the 4 and they were in the hospital in critical condition the last update I heard. The other 2 men drove off, abandoning their crime partners. Before the attempted crime, those 4 men were all together. The attempted robbery is thwarted by a legal permit holder, and the 2 that were not shot showed the utter disreguard for life, and left the 2 critically wounded partners in the street bleeding and in very serious condition.

I can sit here and tell story after story about handguns, but the fact remains that everyone, including local law makers are so scared of offending the "soccer moms" who perceive guns as evil, they will do anything to make the situation go away, even if that includes showing a disreguard for public safety.

The permit holders of Tennessee have been dining in places that do not serve alcohol for years and years, and no one has raised such a fuss over that. Why? the handguns stay concealed, and concealed is out of sight, out of mind. The same thing would relate to carrying in the local parks. When I am out in public, my handgun stays concealed. no one knows that I am carrying, and it is no ones business if I am either.

The process of obtaining a handgun permit in Tennessee is a very long and drawn out process that involves several background checks. You have to take a state certified gun safety course, then take that completion certificate and your money with the completed permit application to one of the DMV offices. You have to show your drivers license, birth certificate, proof of your address and your social security card. After the fee is paid, the applicant must call the TBI and schedule a digital fingerprinting session. The prints are then sent to the TBI and the ATF for background checks. A Tennessee Handgun Carrry Permit holder is not allowed no more than traffic tickets on his or her record before getting approved to carry a handgun. When you go to a gun dealer and purchase a new weapon, guess what? You have to submit that same information (no birth certificate or SS card), fill out a lot of paperwork, then the TBI is called to run your background on the spot. my point in explaining this is to make the point to you that the LAW ABIDING LEGAL HANDGUN OWNER THAT HAS THE HANDGUN PERMIT is not the problem in Chattanooga or anywhere else in the United States. If a permit holder gets in trouble, they risk the loss of the permit and quite possibly the firearm as well. I can not stress this enough. It just disgusts me that the media has twisted a simple law so hard it has everyone jumping to conclusions and all these end of life scenarios over LEGALLY ARMED LAW ABIDING citizens carrying handguns. Criminals do not care what laws you pass, they do not wait for digital fingerprints to be taken, they do not care where they can or can not carry a gun, they will carry one anyway.

I will be present tonight at the Council meeting, and I hope I am given the chance to speak about this issue. I am only one voice, but remember there are over 100000 handgun permit holders in Hamilton County alone, and I would make the assumption that 8000 of them are registered voters. Stop and ask yourself this one question. Have any of the 10000 legal permit holders in Hamilton County ever caused a problem? The answer is no. It is time to take a stand, and let Chattanooga set the example in Tennessee by saying we will not bow down to the criminals, our parks in Chattanooga are safe. Remember, when secounds count, the police are only minutes away.

One final note, by voting to ban legal handguns in all local parks, this also opens up another issue that I am not sure anyone has thought about. In 2004, then President Bush signed in to law HR 218, also known as the Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act. This bill was basically created to allow retired and off duty police officers the right to carry a firearm anywhere WITH EXCEPTIONS. The exception to that law states that in states like Tennessee that have the power to regulate the carrying of firearms on property, in buildings, parks etc, the officer off duty or retired must follow the state law. By voting to enact a handgun ban, it will then be ILLEGAL for an off duty police officer or a retired police officer to carry a handgun in any park that is properly posted per Tennessee law. Are we ready to take that step to basically surrender our parks to the thugs? Here is a portion of that law, and the link to the entire text of HR 218.

One Hundred Eighth Congress of the United States of America

AT THE SECOND SESSION

Begun and held at the City of Washington on Tuesday, the twentieth day of January, two thousand and four

An Act

To amend title 18, United States Code, to exempt qualified current and former law enforcement officers from State laws prohibiting the carrying of concealed handguns.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

This Act may be cited as the `Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act of 2004'.

SEC. 2. EXEMPTION OF QUALIFIED LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS FROM STATE LAWS PROHIBITING THE CARRYING OF CONCEALED FIREARMS.

(a) In General- Chapter 44 of title 18, United States Code, is amended by inserting after section 926A the following:

`Sec. 926B. Carrying of concealed firearms by qualified law enforcement officers

`(a) Notwithstanding any other provision of the law of any State or any political subdivision thereof, an individual who is a qualified law enforcement officer and who is carrying the identification required by subsection (d) may carry a concealed firearm that has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce, subject to subsection (

.

`(

This section shall not be construed to supersede or limit the laws of any State that--

`(1) permit private persons or entities to prohibit or restrict the possession of concealed firearms on their property; or

`(2) prohibit or restrict the possession of firearms on any State or local government property, installation, building, base, or park.

Here is the link to the entire text of the bill:

H.R. 218 Final Text

I strongly suggest you have the city attorney read that and compare it to the Tennessee laws on handgun carry. It is clearly stated: This section shall not be construed to supersede or limit the laws of any State that prohibits or restricts the possession of firearms on any State or local government property, installation, building, base, or parks. With the state making this law a local opt in or out, the ball falls in your hands. With the law stating that, it is a crime for the off duty or retired LEO to have a handgun in a restricted area.

I will see you all tonight. I hope that the Council makes the correct choice, and that choice is show your support for the law abiding citizens and vote NO on the handgun ban.

Thank you for your time.

Rob Bodenbender

30+ year Chattanooga resident.

[BrandonTN]

Here is a nice opinion piece from a member of the Signal Mtn. Parks Board that was on the Chattanoogan website today.

Don't Restrict Our Rights To Protect Ourselves And Family

posted July 13, 2009

An Open Letter to the Signal Mountain Town Council:

As many of you may be surprised to learn, despite my general center-left views on most political issues, I have an extensive background with firearms that began at a very early age. I have always been an outdoorsman, growing up hunting, fishing, camping, and shooting. As a young adult, I was an accomplished competitive marksman even participating in the US Olympic Shooting Program in the early 1980s. I am not a stereotypical right-wing, gun-toting, anti-government extremist (no offense to any of my friends who are). I am, however, a law-abiding Tennessee handgun carry permit holder who believes strongly in the rights of lawful citizens to carry a firearm if they so choose.

<script type="text/javascript"> var ACE_AR = {Site: '747556', Size: '300250'}; </script> <script type="text/javascript" src="http://uac.advertising.com/wrapper/aceUAC.js"></script><script type="text/javascript" src="http://servedby.advertising.com/site=747556/size=300250/u=1/bnum=25830346/hr=18/hl=9/c=3/scres=4/swh=1024x768/tile=1/f=0/r=1/optn=1/fv=0/dref=http%253A%252F%252Fchattanoogan.com%252Farticles%252Farticle_154794.asp"></script>

In addition to my life-long experience as a safe and careful firearm enthusiast, to become a Tennessee handgun carry permit holder, I had to take and pass a state-administered handgun safety course and submit to an extensive background check. So, too, did the other thousands of residents who are carry permit holders. We are not the people you should fear nor further regulate.

On the issue of guns in parks, I oppose the passing of any resolution that would infringe on my right to carry when and where I choose. My opposition to such a resolution is rooted in the following concepts which I discuss in greater detail below.

The decision of when and where to carry (or not carry) a firearm is inherently a very personal decision�a decision which is not the role of government.

A resolution to ban permit holders from carrying in parks would be ambiguous, difficult to enforce, and difficult to comply with.

A populace of legally armed citizens is safer than a populace where the lawful citizen is prohibited from being armed.

First, a decision to legally carry or not carry a firearm is a very personal decision. There are a vast number of reasons a person may choose to carry or not carry, but they are all personal. It should not be the role of government, particularly local government, to mandate this choice for responsible, law-abiding citizens. Role of government should be to protect individual rights while balancing this with the overall public good. Government should not limit the rights of citizens to protect themselves when and where they choose. In considering this resolution, you will be considering the restriction of my right to carry my firearm, and potentially protect myself and my family, on our towns trails and park lands if I so choose.

Take a hypothetical example of a Signal Mountain resident who has had threats placed upon their life or the life a family member. Perhaps this person has even gone to the extent of taking out a restraining order against the person or persons responsible for the threats. They consider the threats very real. They undertake the necessary training and procedures to obtain a carry permit. Should it be your role as a member of town council to prevent this person from protecting themselves and their family while on a day hike to Rainbow Lake? By passing a resolution to ban the Tennessee Handgun Carry Permit holders from exercising their right in our town�s parks, you would be doing exactly that.

Second, passing a resolution that would outlaw legally permitted gun owners from carrying in parks within the town would be an ambiguous decision creating a situation that is both difficult to enforce and difficult to be in compliance with. It may or may not come as a surprise to you that whether or not you pass this resolution, as a resident possessing a carry permit, I can legally place my firearm in its holster, strap it to my hip, leave my house, walk down my street, buy a bottle of water, continue through Old Town to Signal Point (NPS property), walk down the hill to the Cumberland Trail (State Park property), and continue on down the trail to Prentice Cooper State Forest. All of this is currently legal.

A resolution banning permit holders from carrying in parks would not change this. In fact, I can legally walk on any street in town while carrying my firearm and be perfectly within my rights. If you pass this ban, it would only serve to prohibit me from walking back up the hill from Rainbow Lake, a segment of trail this is considered a town park. Further, the ban would have no bearing on those individuals who carry without a permit and/or who might discharge a firearm within the town�s limits. They are already committing an illegal act under both state law and town ordinance. To cite rhetoric, if you pass this resolution, only the outlaws will have guns.

Finally, Mayor Lusk was quoted in the Times Free Press last week stating that the Signal Mountain Police Department does an excellent job of keeping our town safe. I whole-heartedly agree, but keep in mind, when you need a police officer, they�re just minutes away�minutes away when seconds could mean life or death. Further, ask just about any officer on the SMPD about this issue, and you will find that almost to a person, police officers believe that legally-permitted law abiding citizens should have the right to legally carry if they so choose. A legally armed citizenry is a deterrent to crime.

To conclude, as a Signal Mountain resident, a father, a husband, a person heavily involved in my community, and as a Tennessee handgun carry permit holder, I ask that you not further restrict my right to protect myself and my family on or off park property.

Jeffrey R. Duncan

Member, Signal Mountain Parks Board

7/13/2009 - Don't Restrict Our Rights To Protect Ourselves And Family - Opinion - Chattanoogan.com

[Good_Steward]

Fanastic, Brandon. Thanks for posting that. It's too bad none of the 5 council members care what the opinion of Signal's citizens are.

[strickj]

In other news,Verizon is having a killer 3 day sale!

[Guest TurboniumOxide]

I moved off that mountain to a different one with less douche bags. Much happier over here. The police on the little mountain are kind of predatory too.