Lack of support kills HB 2021, parking lot bill

[RobertNashville]

The recurring argument here seems to revolve around one's rights vs another's, while ignoring the fact that you have the CHOICE to work where you do. Sure, I know that leaving a company after XX years with X children to support etc., etc., is a nearly impossible thing to contemplate, but what what you're suggesting is that one person give up their rights for what boils down to your convenience.

FWIW.

Y'all have fun.

That can't be what the argument revolves around because according to stickj individuals don't have any rights; only businesses do.

[Sky King]

Umm... I guess you've never worked retail?

Circle K and Kangaroo (and most other businesses) will tell employees to resist robberies; ie, removing their right to self defense.

Secret Service agents are told to give their life to save the POTUS...

So, the answer would be a big yes.

So if I work Circle K, the boss is a male, I am a female, if he stated it up front, then I could be required to accept any sexual advances every day before starting my day? Where do you draw the line on an employers to dictate ANY condition of employement. Does that include the willingness to engage in criminal acts?

In an earlier post, you ask about laws specific to being in business, how about the main business law, the one that requires you to obtain a business LICENSE.

Edited April 20, 2011 by Sky King

[strickj]

Obviously you also think that my employer can tell my soul where it can spend eternity too...I'll have to ask our CEO what he's decided for me next chance I get since I like to avoid uncertainty.

Hyperbole. But, I'd wager that a church wouldn't hire you if you didn't agree to go to their heaven...

That can't be what the argument revolves around because according to stickj individuals don't have any rights; only businesses do.

You don't have any rights while on someone else's property. Simple as that. Show me where you do in the pudding...

So if I work Circle K, the boss is a male, I am a female, if he stated it up front, then I could be required to accept any sexual advances every day before starting my day? Where do you draw the line on an employers to dictate ANY condition of employement. Does that include the willingness to engage in criminal acts?

If it is dependent on the job, then yes and it is completely legal. See Hooters, strip clubs, porn, etc for examples of what you just mentioned.

Criminal acts would be.... well, criminal...

In an earlier post, you ask about laws specific to being in business, how about the main business law, the one that requires you to obtain a business LICENSE.

Not every business needs a "business license". That's certainly more on the tax side of things anyway... Edited April 21, 2011 by strickj

[RobertNashville]

Hyperbole. How about answering my questions instead of resorting to such red herring'~sh tactics...

Hyperbole? I don't know about that...you've already said an employer can even take away my right to defend my life...what's so hyperbolisitc about taking the next step and dictating the eternal resting place of my soul?

You've spent countless posts telling all and sundry that individuals have no rights in this issue - apparently in your world an employer can require anything of anyone at any time in any place and the individual has no rights....given the unlimited power of businesses over the individual I expect that very soon, employers I don't even work for will be telling me what I can have in my house and my car.

You don't have any rights while on someone else's property. Simple as that. Show me where you do in the pudding...

You've already rejected my argument...what is it that you want me to show you? Anyway, I didn't know we were talking about pudding - I thought we were talking about parking lots.

If I have don't have "any rights" while on someone's else's property I would assume, then, that would include the right to life as well, right? I mean...it's as simple as that. After all, no rights means no rights...that gives a whole new meaning to the word "termination of employment" doesn't it.

Not every business needs a "business license". That's certainly more on the tax side of things anyway...

Yeah...not every one, just 99% of businesses need one....there are exceptions but not all that many.

Tennessee law requires businesses to have a business license issued by local government, except:

• professions that pay the Professional Privilege Tax: accountant, security agent/broker/dealer/investment advisor, attorney, audiologist, chiropractor, dentist, engineer, landscape architect, optometrist, pharmacist, physician, psychologist, speech pathologist, and veterinarian.
  
• Manufacturers: The ruling is complex, but if a manufacturer sells at retail, a business license is required.
  
• Services performed by religious, charitable, educational, and non-profit organizations are exempt. Receipts from sales of food, beverages or other tangible personal property sold by non-profits are subject to business tax.
  
• Soft drink bottlers, gas, electric and water companies, movie theaters and vending machine operators.
  
• Operators of camps and trailer parks where only real property is rented.
  
• Certain businesses owned by the disabled: some blind persons and disabled veterans.
  
• Other: Newspaper route carriers, farmers selling directly, and businesses with annual sales under $3,000.
  

Of course, lot's of people ignore the law just as there are a lot of people who call themselves "businesses" that aren't much of a business. Anyway, last time I checked, tax laws were...well...laws and there are certain tax laws that only apply to business...oh wait, silly me...that can't possible be true because you've already stated that there aren't any laws that apply to businesses that don't apply to individuals.

Edited April 21, 2011 by RobertNashville

[bajabuc]

The obvious solution is head shots

[strickj]

Hyperbole? I don't know about that...you've already said an employer can even take away my right to defend my life...what's so hyperbolisitc about taking the next step and dictating the eternal resting place of my soul?

You've spent countless posts telling all and sundry that individuals have no rights in this issue - apparently in your world an employer can require anything of anyone at any time in any place and the individual has no rights....given the unlimited power of businesses over the individual I expect that very soon, employers I don't even work for will be telling me what I can have in my house and my car.

Ok, now THAT is hyperbole and it's getting kinda ridiculous

But, yeah, I edited my last post to include churches in your little hyperbole example.

A church certainly isn't going to hire someone that refuses to go to their approved heaven..

You've already rejected my argument...what is it that you want me to show you? Anyway, I didn't know we were talking about pudding - I thought we were talking about parking lots.

I want you to back up your claim that you have rights (any rights) while on someone's private property and you have a right not to be fired for breaking a contractual agreement for your employment. Same thing I asked about 10p4174083 times in the other thread.

If I have don't have "any rights" while on someone's else's property I would assume, then, that would include the right to life as well, right? I mean...it's as simple as that. After all, no rights means no rights...that gives a whole new meaning to the word "termination of employment" doesn't it.

What do you mean "right to life"? As in, your employer could kill you? That would be murder... common now, lets be serious here.

Of course, lot's of people ignore the law just as there are a lot of people who call themselves "businesses" that aren't much of a business. Anyway, last time I checked, tax laws were...well...laws and there are certain tax laws that only apply to business...oh wait, silly me...that can't possible be true because you've already stated that there aren't any laws that apply to businesses that don't apply to individuals.

I pay tax. You pay tax. Businesses pay tax. That is something that everyone must do.... not just businesses. To my knowledge, there is no one "Business tax". There are tax breaks for new businesses, there is tax for resale, etc. (note, a "business license" is not required for a commercial tax ID)

Robert, or anyone else, show me something that says that you have any rights while on someone's private property.

Edited April 21, 2011 by strickj

[RobertNashville]

The obvious solution is head shots

Well...no firearms are allowed on company property so there can't there be any shooting.

Maybe the termination of employment happens in the "exit interview" (which just happens to take place in a chamber filled with lethal gas).

[strickj]

Oh, and the list of exemptions you listed is not complete. Off the top of the noodle, I didn't see one exemption for total profit. IIRC, I think 5k is allowed before you have to make your DBA official...

[RobertNashville]

Ok, now THAT is hyperbole and it's getting kinda ridiculous

But, yeah, I edited my last post to include churches in your little hyperbole example.

A church certainly isn't going to hire someone that refuses to go to their approved heaven..

I want you to back up your claim that you have rights (any rights) while on someone's private property and you have a right not to be fired for breaking a contractual agreement for your employment. Same thing I asked about 10p4174083 times in the other thread.

What do you mean "right to life"? As in, your employer could kill you? That would be murder... common now, lets be serious here.

I pay tax. You pay tax. Businesses pay tax. That is something that everyone must do.... not just businesses.

Robert, or anyone else, show me something that says that you have any rights while on someone's private property.

I am being serious and just taking you at your word. If I have no rights on someone else's property then I have no rights...if you tell me I have "no rights" then I assume they mean no as in none as in, to coin a phrase "None. Zip. Zero" (that should sound familiar to you; see post No.123).

If a property owner has absolute property rights (as you've been declaring in post after post) and I, the lowly individual have "no rights" (as you've also declared in post after post) why can't the property owner kill me if he chooses...doesn't he have a right to do whatever he wants...you've already said an employer can take away my right to defend my life...is his actively taking my life that much different? To imply that he can't...to call that murder implies that I have a right to not be murdered doesn't it? But how can I have such a right to not be murdered if I have no rights when I'm on someone else's property.

I pay taxes; but I don't pay business taxes.

Business pay business taxes. They are called business taxes because they apply to businesses and on business activities that individuals don't have. Yes, they are all taxes but there are types of taxes that businesses pay that an individual never will.

Edited April 21, 2011 by RobertNashville

[RobertNashville]

Oh, and the list of exemptions you listed is not complete. Off the top of the noodle, I didn't see one exemption for total profit. IIRC, I think 5k is allowed before you have to make your DBA official...

I'm not an attorney...I just copied that from a State site.

Maybe it's wrong...maybe it's dated.

Edited April 21, 2011 by RobertNashville

[rockman6]

So, is the bill going to survive?

[GKar]

It may...we may not...

[macville]

I pay taxes; but I don't pay business taxes.

Business pay business taxes. They are called business taxes because they apply to businesses and on business activities that individuals don't have. Yes, they are all taxes but there are types of taxes that businesses pay that an individual never will.

Correction here. They may be called business taxes, but since businesses don't do work themselves, they don't pay taxes because they can't use time like humans can. Therefore, businesses simply are tax collectors and collect taxes from customers. So you do pay businesses taxes each and every time you buy something or a service. Think of money as someone's time, because that's all it really is.

And I do agree, that property owners don't have absolute right on their property over your rights.

I think the founders would be sad that we are even having this discussion. I think they would have found it odd that anyone would ban another person from having a firearm for self-defense/hunting/sport on their property.

[Sky King]

So, is the bill going to survive?

It isn't dead but it certainly is in need of life support and CPR. For a while there was some hope that an amemdment by Eddie Bass could restore the bill to oridional intent. However after talking to Rep. Josh Evans, the bill sponsor, Tuesday night at the Nashville TFA meeting, Bass's amendment will kill the bill if it passes because Rep Evans will withdraw the bill if that happens.

So right now, the way I understand it, the only way Rep. Evans will allow the bill to get out is that it has to pass in it's current form, neutered.

I am beginning to have several mixed thoughts about this. At first, Rep. Evans, (go back to the early posts in this thread), pointed to the NRA and TFA for not getting behind this bill. Well I don't expect much of any thing on the state level from The NRA but I know the TFA has stepped up the pressure. Now lack of support from other Republican members is being blamed.

Without a doubt, there are a good number of Republican members who are claiming the property rights argument to justify their lack of support for the bill. The number of members who suddenly jumped on as co-sponsors following the neutering amendment is evidence of this. However what I really think is that it all boils down to money. These RINOs are forgetting who they are there to represent.

While I understand Josh Evans's desire to keep his word to his fellow House members, to not push a mandate bill in return for their support, I feel his commitment has been fulfilled if the bill is amended on the floor by another member and then passed. I also feel his allegiance is misplaced. His first allegiance is to his constituants and the citizens of Tennessee, not the other members of The General Assembly or to businesses.

I believe a good deal of letters to Mr. Evans, to RESPECTFULLY ask him to reconsider his position to kill the bill if an amendment restoring the bill gains any traction on the House floor.

[Guest mds3d]

I will give one example of how business property rights are different than private property rights.

Each has the right to ask people to leave the property, however business are restricted in their right to enumerate their reason for asking you to leave.

If I throw a party at my house, and then tell every one that all non-white people must leave. I am within my rights to do so.

If my father tells every non-white person that tries to come in the hardware store that their money is not welcome and they should leave, he is not within his rights to conduct fair business.

Same thing applies to hiring employees. I can decide that I will not hire a non-white worker to fix my roof and there is nothing anyone can do about it.

However, my father is not allowed to ask for age, gender, race, or religion on an application or use any of those in the process of hiring.

Churches are an exception (not considered a business) and they have the right of association (as do non-profit church related schools).

[RobertNashville]

Correction here. They may be called business taxes, but since businesses don't do work themselves, they don't pay taxes because they can't use time like humans can. Therefore, businesses simply are tax collectors and collect taxes from customers. So you do pay businesses taxes each and every time you buy something or a service. Think of money as someone's time, because that's all it really is.

And I do agree, that property owners don't have absolute right on their property over your rights.

I think the founders would be sad that we are even having this discussion. I think they would have found it odd that anyone would ban another person from having a firearm for self-defense/hunting/sport on their property.

I do understand the subtltly of taxes, this is at least one area I do have some actual, practical and professional knowledge of. My point was, regardless of how a business obtains the money to pay taxes, the type, plethora of and basis for the various taxes a "business" pays is quite different than those an individual pays (with some overlap of course).

I don't know what the founders would think; people having weapons on them almost everywhere they went was so ingrained in society that I doubt that anyone would even have thought about it....that's probably why they didn't bother to mention "hunting" or "self defense" in the Bill of Rights; the threat they saw and wanted to protect us from was an out of control government taking weapons away from the people in order to force its will on them.

Edited April 21, 2011 by RobertNashville

[GKar]

If anyone still cares about the actual bill that began this somewhat exhaustive re-discourse, it is now scheduled to be brought to the House floor on Wed., April 27.

[strickj]

You don't have to be a business to pay "business taxes". Anyone can get a tax ID. And not all business pay a "business tax".

Again, I'm not aware of any one coverall "business tax" that businesses must pay. At lease not state wide. There may be local city taxes though.

I will give one example of how business property rights are different than private property rights.

Each has the right to ask people to leave the property, however business are restricted in their right to enumerate their reason for asking you to leave.

If I throw a party at my house, and then tell every one that all non-white people must leave. I am within my rights to do so.

If my father tells every non-white person that tries to come in the hardware store that their money is not welcome and they should leave, he is not within his rights to conduct fair business.

Same thing applies to hiring employees. I can decide that I will not hire a non-white worker to fix my roof and there is nothing anyone can do about it.

However, my father is not allowed to ask for age, gender, race, or religion on an application or use any of those in the process of hiring.

Churches are an exception (not considered a business) and they have the right of association (as do non-profit church related schools).

You are incorrect and here's why.

1) Civil right laws protect against discrimination against classes of people that can not change xzy. Gun owners are not and will never be a "protected class" because gun carrying is a choice.

2) A business can hire and fire based on race, sex, physical attributes, disabilities, whatever. If xyz is dependent of job completion, then any business can hire and fire away based on that.

[macville]

You don't have to be a business to pay "business taxes". Anyone can get a tax ID. And not all business pay a "business tax".

Again, I'm not aware of any one coverall "business tax" that businesses must pay. At lease not state wide. There may be local city taxes though.

Umm in the State of Tennessee unless you are a sole-proprietor, have a business that is passive income and is 90% family owned, or is a farm that is 90% family owned, you get to pay Franchise and Excise Tax. There are other taxes that cover those businesses, but aren't quite as hefty.

1) Civil right laws protect against discrimination against classes of people that can not change xzy. Gun owners are not and will never be a "protected class" because gun carrying is a choice.

But this gets into the question of self defense. Someone of my age has a better chance of defending themselves against an attacker than someone who's in their 70's or 80's. We do have a right to defend ourselves, even killing someone in self defense. The question becomes then, how is that applied? Does someone who can't swing their arm, but can pull a trigger get more rights to carry than me because I physically can?

Edited April 21, 2011 by macville

[waynesan]

Thank You GKar!

[Guest nicemac]

Thank You GKar!

This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[Sky King]

Thank You GKar!

YES!! I called myself watching for this. I looked early this morning and it had not been placed on the House calendar.

[RobertNashville]

You don't have to be a business to pay "business taxes". Anyone can get a tax ID. And not all business pay a "business tax".

Again, I'm not aware of any one coverall "business tax" that businesses must pay. At lease not state wide. There may be local city taxes though.

Really...who exactly has to pay a "business tax" that isn't in/operating a business? What tax would that be?

I'm not surprised that your aren't aware of one and I don't know of one either but no one here said that there was "one coverall business tax".

If you are speaking of a federal tax ID; yeah...they are easy to get and I suppose "anyone can get one" but so what? What does that have to do with anything?? Having one doesn't make you a "business" but most businesses, if they pay any sort of business taxes at all will likely have to get one...I don't know why anyone would want one who doesn't need one.

You are incorrect and here's why.

1) Civil right laws protect against discrimination against classes of people that can not change xzy. Gun owners are not and will never be a "protected class" because gun carrying is a choice.

I though we had a right to keep and bear arms...oh...wait...never mind.

2) A business can hire and fire based on race, sex, physical attributes, disabilities, whatever. If xyz is dependent of job completion, then any business can hire and fire away based on that.

Really...a business can fire someone because they are black or a woman, etc. and get away with it???

Edited April 22, 2011 by RobertNashville

[RobertNashville]

...We do have a right to defend ourselves, even killing someone in self defense...

No...we dont'...remember that according to strickj individuals have absolutely no rights if they are standing on someone else's property; not even the right to defend their life.

[Guest mosinon]

Correction here. They may be called business taxes, but since businesses don't do work themselves, they don't pay taxes because they can't use time like humans can. Therefore, businesses simply are tax collectors and collect taxes from customers. So you do pay businesses taxes each and every time you buy something or a service. Think of money as someone's time, because that's all it really is.

And I do agree, that property owners don't have absolute right on their property over your rights.

I think the founders would be sad that we are even having this discussion. I think they would have found it odd that anyone would ban another person from having a firearm for self-defense/hunting/sport on their property.

Yeah, no. See sometimes you pay the taxes and sometimes you don't. I know, I know, you think that if there is a tax of X% on some business that is necessarily passed on to the consumer. A very simplistic position.

Let me introduce you to Pepsi throwback. You know about Pepsi throwback right? It is Pepsi but made with sugar instead of corn syrup. It is absolutely delicious and I like it better than the regular Pepsi. Turns out that real sugar is eight times (so I am told) more expensive than high fructose corn syrup.

Tax is a cost and real sugar is a cost. Under your assumptions Pepsi throwback should cost X percentage more than regular Pepsi. Great, go to the store and buy a six pack of regular Pepsi and a six pack of Pepsi throwback. You'll note that they cost the same amount. How can this possibly be?

Turns out that that Pepsi throwback is still profitable. It isn't how much something costs to make, it never is, it is how much you can sell something for.