Jonnin

Most 45s are too big for my taste, hence the excitement over a small one =) I have a monster one already, old S&W.

This is what you want in your CZ: 9X18 Makarov +P Pistol and Handgun Ammo This is not the only round you can get, but its the hardest hitting defensive JHP that I know of short of loading your own. Hornady had one but it can be hard to get a box of it. Trash amm online you can get for between 7 and 10 $ per box, if you are willing to buy 500-1000 or more rounds at a go. Its hit or miss on who has what brands in stock and for what price. Brown bear and sellier & belliot are the 2 types that I have bought this way, both are fine (few duds & non corrosive). Wolf also makes a cheap ammo for it, as does fiocchi, I have not tried either.

The kimber is 4 inches long? Either I misread that or there is a gun I need to go buy...! Its hard to describe recoil indeed. No 45 that I have ever shot is anything like a lightweight small frame 9mm shooting stout loads. The 9 is far, far worse. I do not understand 40s: its bigger and has more "felt" recoil than a 9, yet at the same time it also seems to push somewhat more than jerk. I can hold a plastic 40 on target and fire rapidly and effectively. I cannt do this with the 9s. I cannot explain that at all. The 4 in a small plastic gun is also much, much worse than a 45, that much I can say. I shoot one handed mostly, and a box of 40 leaves my hand a bit numb/stunned and fatigued, more than a box at a time would be difficult for me. I can shoot a .45 all day, can and have run 2-3 boxes at one time, and the HAND is fine afterwards but my arm gets very tired...

will do, but it will be after the holidays. Got 1000 things going on this month. I found a site that will appraise it for money and specializes in the civil war stuff. Going to have to park it for now.

Seems a little unfair -- the internet guys have to pay phone operators, web design/programmers, computer servers, warehouse, and more. They beat the price of local for two reasons: they buy in bulk and sell in bulk at a small profit margin, and they do not add a bunch of "haggle price" on top of each item. The local guys seem to WANT you to sit there for half an hour trying to get a better deal, trying to make you feel like they did you a favor by dropping an inflated price a little bit. Gee, thanks for nothing. The local guy has advantages too. The web guy has to ship it to a FFL who charges you a fee, and you have to pay more shipping (the dealer can get better rates usually). So all the local guy has to do is beat the price of these fees, or be within a small margin of the web price + fees, to compete. Why can so many of them not do this? Ammo at most local shops is as much as twice what can be had on the web. Heck, if people PAY that for ammo, I could open an ammo only store, buy it off the web, double the price, and get rich... I want to buy local, and I do when I can, but only when the price is fair. Most of the time that means no ammo, and very, very careful with the other purchases. The guns are actually the best thing to get locally, because of the mentioned support. If a gun mucks up, its at least $50 and a month to get it fixed at the manufacturer, just due to the overnight shipping tax that carriers charge with their anti-gun rules. Ammo, scopes, and other gear that can be shipped 1 week ground style are much better deals off the web, and until the local guys can lower the price a little, the web or walmart will be my source for the other goods. I hate to be that way, but if I bought ammo locally I would lose hundreds of dollars a year, and thats too much. I want local guys to do well, but at the same time, I *have* to spend my money wisely. Ya know?

Get a real makarov then. Solid steel, a few parts (its a VERY simple gun design), easy to teardown and clean (get a rag, pull down the trigger guard, insert rag to hold it open, then pull the slide backwards, up, and forward off the barrel, done). It is a military sidearm and designed to take some abuse. Its accurate. And, its cheap and so is the ammo, you can get bulk ammo at $6 a box if you search for a deal on the internet. Its mostly a non issue NOW, but make sure that any cheap ammo you get is NON CORROSIVE. Its a royal pain to clean this gun properly after using corrosive ammo (requires a total teardown, boiling water, and scrubbing of some awkward nooks). The cz is your best bet for a real carry piece, for self defense vs a thug, as it has more shots (double stack clip) and is a slightly improved design over the original. The originals are better for a farm piece, 8 shots should handle any animals and is enough for an intruder if necessary. If you pull off the sights or file them down, you can pocket carry this in most jeans, but the original sights are snaggy so you have to deal with them somehow. Beware the FEG and other guns that shoot the 9x18 cartridge, it/they are a fine gun but more complex and less friendly to being filled with dirt and such, harder to clean and more likely to fail from being dirty. I doubt you can find a decent makarov for $100, though. Take a few moments to research them, as the country that made it matters (how good the gun really is depends on who made it), and to understand the non-makarovs that fire the 9x18 so you can tell the difference (many dealers will call a FEG a makarov, but it isnt). Also research your options, as the production dates exceed the 50 year rule, so some maks qualify as a C&R and some will not. Mine is a 1963, for example. A good place to start is makarov.com which has a ton of great info on these guns, some of it out of date, but good info. For defense, buffalo bore makes a good ammo for the gun.

I agree, the news loves to make it sound as if a gun will get up, walk across the room, point itself at you, and fire. Esp NBC which has become more and more liberal every year since clinton was elected. I will not say that it cannot happen: anything that is mass produced could have a defect. However, there are thousands upon thousands of these guns out there, and, so far, ONE or TWO of them that we know of that was not modified (at a guess, they did not say!) have had a problem. Since the gun was always pointed in a safe direction, after such an event, simply taking to a gunsmith or a trip back to the factory should clear it right up, no harm done to anything except the owner's nerves. Its been a while since I saw their "news" show on it, but as I recall it was extremely biased and unscientific. I do not recall that they bought a new 700 out of the box, took it to the range, and filmed it shooting itself.

Thanks, I will check it out

Recoil is gun specific. I have shot a cheap .25 that bruised my hand, and my 380 that is the same size as the 25 has far less recoil due to the design of the gun. A 1911 is "typically" a heavy gun that has a long barrel and massive frame and good springs. The springs and inertia of the heavy frame will help to manage recoil; I can shoot my old S&W 1911 with 1 hand and it has less recoil than most plastic 9mm defense pistols. If you can handle a plastic 9mm, the .45 in a steel frame is going to be more than gentle in comparison. Where the gun specifics come into play is a lightweight 1911 with a partially plastic frame, aluminum instead of steel frame, or other such weight reduction. The lighter the gun is the more it will jump, and the .45 is a moderately stout round. Also weaker recoil springs and hammer springs will allow more recoil through to the user. There are a few plastic 45s but I am not sure if any of the "truely" 1911s have much plastic. Same for aluminum, I could not say how many have a lighter frame. If you are shy of heavy recoil guns, look for heavier models, and see if you can borrow one to try --- almost every gun owner has one of these things, if you hang out at a range for an hour or two on a weekend, you will be very likely to see someone with one and just ask nicely if you can fire a round or 2 -- the old "I am new to guns and like the look of yours" usually works, Ive had a number of folks want to try various things that I have and I always allow them to give it a try.

The 9mm thought was a compromise, its ammo is heavy but it will do the job. I do not want to be up against a family armed with deer rifles and 45s with just a 22 rifle. If its just hunting, the 22 is ok, though I doubt I could take a deer with it, or stop an angry bear. If stationary, anything goes as you said, this would be a mobile gun. Likely I would stash some of the ammo though, and a 22 backup, probably a target pistol, would be sweet.

$299 on sale right now at shooter's depo in chattanooga. However, you have either a day trip or a shipping and FFL transfer fee so it may or may not appeal to you.

its just "no steel cases". Brass surplus is ok, maybe I didnt say that clearly. It has nothing to do with who made it and for what purpose, its just that hard steel cases break things in these guns, while brass is soft enough to not break things. Thats the whole story. Not having tried it, I am not sure what parts break, or how much steel it takes to break them.

I practice to shoot one handed, and I practice with each hand. I am confident that I can shoot this way from many positions, crouched or prone, sitting or standing, in a car, etc. My body is turned to provide a smaller target toward the attacker if standing or similar. The disadvantage is that rapid fire at long range is difficult to master; at 30 feet or so a 6 inch group is about the best I can do. I carry a small .40 caliber, and sometimes a 380 when the 40 is too hard to conceal (rare). The 40 is rough 1 handed, for sure (more for the weaker hand), but with practice I have learned to control it. I used the 2h weaver for years but one day I just decided to see if I could learn to shoot this way in case one hand were injured or whatever, and liked it better --- the style is natural for me and I think that would not be the case for most people.

I did not say that at all. I said to balance these concepts to help choose what you want. 2 9mm holes is bigger than a single .45 hole and more effective as it is double the chance to hit something important, no doubt about it. But, at the same time, if you only shoot one round, the 45 has a better chance of a kill. I said to get the largest thing that fits your carry style, ability to shoot it, and other needs, and I will stand by that --- on top of which, I said it was my opinion at the start. Personally I like to carry in my pocket. As you can probably guess, then, I downsized the caliber to meet this requirement as a .45 just does not fit the style that I like. This is the balance that I mentioned at work --- there are a few pocket 45s but none that I care for, so I am now looking in the .40, 9mm, and 10 mm range. I do not like a revolver for carry, as I like more than 6 shots --- as you said, a couple of holes is better than 1 so if you plan to fire twice, having more capacity is also part of the balance. What I ended up with, then, is a .40 with 11 shots in it. I could have had a 9 with 15, but that was my choice, and if I need 15 shots, I am probably going to have a really, really bad day no matter what is in my pocket. I could also have had a .22 with 10 shots or a .25 etc, but again physics is not folklore, I can handle the larger calibers, so my final choice was a the .40 caliber, it is the compromise that fits my needs the best. Clearly other compromises fit other peoples needs the best, that is why there are so many guns out there to choose from, which is why I wrote all that. My goal was to get him to ask the questions that lead to the right gun for HIM. If my personal bias toward a hand cannon slipped in, I am sorry, thats the opinion part =)

And now, specific answers to your specific questions. Revolvers are great. The do not easily malfunction. If the ammo fails to fire, pull the trigger again, in an automatic you must rack the slide. Revolvers have to be pretty darn poorly made or very, very damaged/dirty to "jam". The only negative to a revolver is the 6 shot (sometimes 5!) limit, but the same people who make this into an issue will turn around and recommend a 6 shot semi-automatic (many of the really small guns are low capacity). Kel tec guns are cheap and designed for personal defense. They are light weight and small. They are very reliable. Their service is outsanding if something breaks. The only issue is the trigger: each shot takes a massive pull on the trigger, I can barely shoot one at all, my wife cannot even shoot it once, and after a clip I have a sore finger. They are not range guns and if you want to shoot at the range, this is not for you. The recoil is not really so bad, if you have really strong hands, maybe --- however the guns also wear out a bit faster than more expensive ones (this is not too big a deal as kel tec will fix it, probably for free). Home defense, you can use anything -- you do not have to conceal it. A shotgun is great, but anything you carry is acceptable and anything bigger than what you carry is also acceptable. The #1 choice is a 12 gauge shotgun. If you want something for defense AND range, and home defense too, its a choice in style again but either a .357 revolver in a smallish frame (these shoot the much cheaper .38 special rounds on the range, for practice, keep the 357 ammo for defense and occasional range time as its pricy) would be excellent. If you want an automatic, a small frame .40 caliber or 10mm are really nice, I use a beretta PX4 subcompact in the .40 caliber. Both .40 and 10 mm ammo is expensive, and another similar caliber, the .357 sig (its the semi automatic attempt to make a 357 magnum) is also costly. If you want to shoot a lot at the range cheaply, a similar 9mm is going to have cheap ammo, hold more rounds, but it hits a little bit less hard in the same size gun. You can find 9mm ammo anywhere, the others are just not as popular and can be out of stock etc. The same gun (the beretta px4) is produced in 9mm as well. So is the kel tec pf9 or p-11 models if you can stand that trigger. From what you are saying, though, I would look at some .357 revolvers for sure.

Welcome! I am going to do a long, post that could be a little overwhelming for someone new to guns. Like all such things, its mostly my opinions, but I tried to keep it generic and to open up some possible things for you, not to steer you in any direction. Try to not be overwhelmed though, its just some things to think about as you shop for your gun, so you do not buy the wrong thing and end up buying another gun a few months from now. If you consider this stuff up front, your purchase will likely be exactly what you need ---- its an attempt to show you how I wasted some money over the years learning what I liked and did not like by trial, error, and expense so you do not have to repeat the process =) Before you buy a gun for carry, there is a lot to know, at least a at a generic level of detail. First thing to know is what is called terminal ballistics. This is a complicated subject, but here is the quick overview: 1) bigger holes kill faster because they have a bigger chance to hit something important like the spine, heart, or major blood vessles. The size of the hole is governed by caliber, which is either in caliber(this is inches, 1 caliber = 1 inch diameter, and a .45 is about 1/2 an inch) or metric (9mm, etc: a 10 mm is roughly the same as a .40 caliber in diameter, for example). Bigger holes help someone bleed to death faster, if nothing else. 2) Longer barrels produce more force from the same bullet. See the excellent website "ballistics by the inch". 3) The goal is to fire a round that expends most of its energy in the enemy, and exits their body with minimal force so as not to hit somone behind them. This is usually done by using hollow point ammo which expands, and more surface area makes a larger hole AND drops its energy into the body faster for a lower exit velocity. There is a lot more to it, but thats enough to understand the basic physics. Then comes the gun stuff: There are a lot of different guns, revolvers are still great for defense, and various automatics. Some automatics are what is called double action only, so you have a long, heavy trigger pull every shot which is hard to aim and control and fire rapidly. Others are double action, and have a short, easy trigger pull if the hammer (internal or external) is cocked, and a long heavy pull for the first shot only if it is not cocked. Others are single action, and are actually stored with the hammer cocked and the safety engaged, so you pop the safety off as you draw and a light tap of the trigger is all you need ever. Most modern revolvers are double action, you can thumb back the hammer for a light trigger pull or just pull a long heavy trigger to do it all from the trigger. Revolvers to not recock after a shot, you have to thumb the hammer each time if you want the light trigger pull. So, you need to consider which stlye is right for you. A lot of this is just safety preferences and personal preferences. A double action only gun has no safety, and no need for it, as you cannot pull a trigger an inch against a 6 pound spring by accident unless extremely careless. Same is true for a double action gun, but if your hammer can snag as you draw (external, revolver or revolver style hammer on an auto) you need a safety. Single action only (cocked with safety on) scare some folks, but those can be carried uncocked if you practice pulling the hammer back as you draw, to eliminate the risk. So, given all that, you now have to decide how you will carry the gun. If you poke it in your pocket, well most guns that are right at a 6 inch square or smaller frame will fit into a mans jeans or dress pants pocket. Much over that gets tight and sights can snag, or it can be difficult to draw, may be hard to conceal (many guns you can poke a thin wallet in front and its totaly hidden, others are too fat for this trick), etc. If you carry it under arm, in your waist band, or the like, you can hide a monster 1911 style that way but the weight can get old and the size can be annoying. Its whatever you think you can stand to have for weight and size for these types of carry -- the bigger the gun, the more likely it will perform well but the more annoying it is to carry (bigger guns have longer barrels and are usually, but not always, shoot a more powerful ammo.) Another issue is the cost. You may like the sig p238, but at $500, maybe its a bit much for a pocket 380. Decide what you can spend, then seek out either a quality new gun or an even better quality used one. Many used guns are in great condition and are a much better deal than a new one, its like a new car, after you drive it a mile off the lot, the value drops, same thing, after you shoot a box thru a gun, its value drops a bit. Once you have thought of all this, is time to browse the web and read some reviews, or if you can, borrow and shoot a few types. You want the largest caliber gun that you can stand to shoot from the longest barrel you can stand to carry in a style that is comfortable and safe for your style of carry and preferences. Usually that means a subcompact 9mm or 40 or 10 mm caliber (and by caliber, I violate the true meaning. Here, its not JUST the bullet diameter, its also the amount of powder behind it. A .380 is the same diameter as a 9mm, with 1/4 the force due to a light powder load behind the bullet). Once you have a general idea of what you might want, rough out a style, dimensions, and concerns (weight, price, etc) and then ask around here. People will love to share the piece that they carry with you, often with pictures, and from seeing what others are using, you can get an overall feel for what guns people trust their lives to on a daily basis. These guns that people talk about are most often the most reliable, easy to use, easy to conceal, etc, and very few people are going to suggest junk that malfunctions or breaks. Hopefully this was a helpful overview, if you have any questions send me a personal message or ask around in the handgun carry area of the forums.

This one makes no sense. I understand not being able to carry in court, since you might take offense at the decision and blow up the jury, but at the cemetary, the fellow is already dead. What are you going to do, shoot him again? I cannnot find any reason to make a cemetary a crime welcome zone -- they are huge, outdoors, unstaffed by any sort of armed security to protect visitors, and even worse, in this case, practically in the middle of the ghetto. Half the shooting in chattanooga are within 5 miles of the national cemetary. I do not know of any inside it, but I see no reason a smart thug could not go in there to assault the visitors, knowing they are unarmed would be a plus in that area, anywhere else nearby anyone with any sense would have an uzi or a street sweeper shotgun.

Heh, understood. Kel techs are fairly cheap, so I would say try to find a new one or like-new used (hard to find, most people keep theirs). Be warned, once you get something like this you will want to put some stuff on it most likely, so double your budget before you get it. Try to have a good $1000 to spend, because you will want a scope (a decent scope is about $300), a clip (a 30 round clip is $20-30), some ammo (.223 is not exactly cheap, and since you are banned from using the surplus military stuff, expect to buy a good $100 or more in ammo as you sight it in and try it out). My pistol is already at a good $750 spent and thats with just a scope, ammo, forend, clip, and gun --- and the rifle versions have more goodies to consider such as a bipod, etc.

My friend here shoots one of those with the longer barrel installed. He punches nice holes in the target, its pretty consistent and accurate, considering that he is using the cheapest ammo out there and shooting 20-30 feet or so, still it hits a dime sized target at that range if the shooter can do it. I dunno why you call it a SNS, its just a 22 plinker not really a zip gun. Unless desperate or stupid, what criminal is going to buy a huge .22, even a cheap one, when other cheap guns can be had that are smaller, more potent, etc? These are fine guns, and great for a new shooter to learn pistol shooting with, great for a youngster or the like. Esp with the longer barrel, which gives the extra sight radius to help a novice to shoot well. Its not a competition target gun, and its not a great gangster piece, but its a mighty fine plinker. As for the sights, we rednecked his with some white-out on the front sight so you can see it. As for the weight, I actually LIKE heavy guns, they are much easier to keep on target as the inertia helps reduce recoil, and even a .22 has enough recoil to pull it off target slightly. The thing I would say about this piece, although yours may be different, is that the one my friend uses has a terrible trigger that makes good shooting a bit more difficult, its long and heavy on the pull (compared to a target pistol, even a $300 one).

Stocks and barrels and such. Go to keltec website and look at each one, it explains it there. All are very similar guns, the same 223 platform with a variety of configurations for your personal tastes.

1960 was not that long ago. There are a ton of revolvers and some weak semi autos like .25 and .22 calibers. Revolvers up to 38 special were made on compact frames back then. Also, a lot of 1 and 2 shot derringers in various calibers are nearly that old, not sure on the exact dates but surely some are pre 1960, and obviously there are some BP derringers that would work. Can you give us a better requirement? Maybe a number of shots, caliber, or semi-auto vs revolver, etc? Max size and weight? --------------------- Sorry to disagree but IMO the makarov is as good as a LCP or the like. The CZ is bigger than a LCP, but its a bigger caliber and holds more rounds and is more durable too. The old makarovs are not quite as good as the CZ but still fire a bigger round and still fit in your pocket, I carried a EG mak for years in my pocket, fits in man's jeans and dress pants easily but the sights tend to snag. There are better choices now, sure: in the same size a variety of true 9mm and even .40 calibers are available now, or much smaller 380s (somone needs to make a mak on the small 380 frames that are popular) have various advantages in either size or firepower, but the mak is a solid piece and for those that hate a DAO gun, its a good choice for a borderline (almost too big) pocket pistol.

Brownings can be hard to price, because the same darn gun could be from 1930 or 1993 for some of the models and look the same visually. I am no expert but just had to unravel this issue for 4 or 5 of them. Some models and years are worth well over $2000 and more. Others that are virtually the same can be had for $500 or so. The one you mention is the A bolt II, while the more expensive ones are the older A bolts (I guess technically the A bolt I), or some of the safari or olympic grade hunters from back when. It never hurts to ask. The shop I deal with has a gunsmith examine every gun they buy before they resell it, and most quality stores probably do this. It probably is just fine and reasonably priced, and you should probably buy it if you want it after asking for some details. Odds are against a shop that old being shady and likely you can get a return policy or a "we will fix it if it does not work, for a few weeks after purchase" sort of deal. Again, it never hurts to ask. Ah, I did not see page 2! I see you bought it, congrats & hope it turns out to be exactly what you want and more! Unless sorely abused, its hard to find a bad browning, so you should be in for a treat.

Looks exactly like my gerber mark I or II from way back (I forget which is mine and which is my wifes). Heh, my damascus 6 inch switchblade is right out, eh? *That* is all I need, the cops taking a $400 knife from me and throwing me in jail to boot... "Yea, you got a permit to carry a gun but not a KNIFE" is how the law was explained to me, which is dumb, but thats the rule.

I have their PLR-16, which is really the pistol version of the same gun if I am not mistaken. The one that I have will not eat steel ammo (can break it), and I think the same is true for the SU. So you must avoid the surplus ammo with these guns. Also, the pistol can get hot enough to melt part of the gun if you try to machine-gun thru a stack of 30 round mags. If you just fire it normally (a few seconds per shot) it gets warm but is fine. I do not know if the SU has this same issue, and I did not do this to mine just read that it can happen. If you want to treat it this way, search the web before you buy to find out if the SU is also prone to over heating. I think the rule of thumb was about 50 rounds before putting it down to cool off. Kel tech has outstanding service, so even if something goes wrong, they will fix it. These bigger guns are much better made than their line of cheap self defense pistols and do not have to be poked and prodded before shooting. They work out of the box, and if treated well, should last for many years of good service. Edit: I checked it out on the kel tec web site. If you took a picture of the PLR and the SU, cropped it to just show the trigger and ejection port and top of the gun (removed the stocks and barrel from the image), you could not tell the pistol and rifle apart, so I am going to say they are the same .223 gun in the middle with a different barrel and stocks and frame, but internally most likely the same. Take that as an educated guess though.

I would not do it, but I suspect the gun could be fired, for an idea of its condition, maybe need a once over first but most likely it could be done. Its used, of course, but there is no rust, no real damage, just wear on the detailing and a nick or two in the wood, nothing deep. The ramrod looks fragile. I may look into taking it down to see if it needs any preservation work -- one of the "pins" is a little loose in the wood up around the barrel. Maybe I will shell out to get it appraised in a couple of months. Glad you enjoyed the pictures. I have a pretty good line of insurance if stuff gets taken and its in a pretty good safe, about as secure as I can make it.