The TFA?

[bteague2]

At the gunshow this weekend I went up to the TFA booth to ask them a few questions about joining. One of the guys working the booth asked me and another guy if we had our carry permits I replied that I did the other guy replied that he did not. The guy working the booth starts talking to the other guy about the permit, the class and the requirements. The TFA guy answered one of the questions about open carrying, I think it was about open carrying, with: "You'd have to be an idiot to strap a gun to your hip and walk around in public." Now that struck me odd as the TFA is supposed to be a firearm advocacy group and that sounded pretty anti, if they are going to stand up for gun owner's "rights" shouldn't they stand up for all of them? Because if we give them (anti-gunners) an inch they'll take a mile. After the other guy left I asked the guy working the booth what the membership dues are used for. He replied that he didn't know, that some of it went towards advertising on the news, in the papers, and fliers and that the rest of it sat in a bank account in Nashville.

My question for you guys that are TFA members, and the few of you that are more involved in the TFA, are: is this guy an accurate representative of the TFA, is he putting his own opinion of things in there, or is he just wrong? And where are these advertisements? Besides from a few people on here and at gun shows I haven't seen anything from the TFA.

[Guest Len]

I'm a member and I'm not sure what my dues are used for. The E.D. (John Harris) does lobbying work on Capitol Hill for us, so I assume there are expenses associated with that. There is also a part-time office person who I assume gets some money. There are brochures and so forth as well. I have seen no paid advertising.

From what I understand, TFA is part of the reason (perhaps the main reason) why open carry is allowed in TN. So, I assume the person you spoke to does not represent TFA policy. (If he does, I will not be renewing my membership.)

[TGO David]

Len don't forget that part of our dues were recently being considered for use advertising on some local stock-car driver's hood.

[Marswolf]

The classic answer came from a gun friend (now deceased) who said that the TFA was some lawyer in Nashville who takes your money. That's probably a bit harsh, but it is interesting that pretty much no one knows how the dues money is spent. I don't know what the membership is of the TFA, but I doubt anyone is getting rich on the dues money.

There is a critical junction at which an organization goes from a simple grassroots group to being a real player with paid staff who can do some serious lobbying. I don't think TFA is remotely close to that point. The TFA needs someone who can devote all their time to the group. That takes money and a willingness to share control on the part of the leadership. I doubt the TFA will ever get to that point.

[Guest SomeGuy]

I head up the Chattanooga chapter.

I open carry the majority of the time.

TFA supports keeping OC legal, some members however strongly prefer concealed.

The man Mars is quoting is someone I have heard of (though I forget his name). He had a personal dispute with John Harris. For those who don't know who or what John is: he is a lawyer specializing in firearms law. WHen I last spoke with him, he said his rate was 4000 an hour. He does not make money by heading TFA, he does it to protect our RKBA. He has single handedly done more for our RKBA in TN than probably any individual in the last decade.

Should you join/learn about/be involved with the TFA? Yes, you should.

[Guest tjbert47]

I head up the Chattanooga chapter.

I open carry the majority of the time.

TFA supports keeping OC legal, some members however strongly prefer concealed.

The man Mars is quoting is someone I have heard of (though I forget his name). He had a personal dispute with John Harris. For those who don't know who or what John is: he is a lawyer specializing in firearms law. WHen I last spoke with him, he said his rate was 4000 an hour. He does not make money by heading TFA, he does it to protect our RKBA. He has single handedly done more for our RKBA in TN than probably any individual in the last decade.

Should you join/learn about/be involved with the TFA? Yes, you should.

I second that.

Tom in TN

[dariks]

WHen I last spoke with him, he said his rate was 4000 an hour.

So if I ever need a lawyer for a firearms related matter I should find someone else? 'Cause there's no way I could afford that!

[dunndw]

The anti OC fella sounds ALOT like Buford. Was he a rather LARGE fellow with white hair?

Now...advertising on a stock car hood was going to be a CHEAP way to get the TFA name out to a large group of people that stereotypically are strongly pro gun. I don't remember what the cost was going to be...but for the amount of eyes on the target...it was way below market value.

I remember when I took my class...John came to speak to us. I believe he was deeply involved in the writing of the actual law.

[TGO David]

Regarding the stock car advertising... I understood the intended purpose as you stated it also, but I thought it was a silly waste of money that could have been more efficiently applied to advertising in other ways. I may be entirely wrong and entirely underestimating the ratio of gun owners to stock car racing fans... but it just seemed like a shot in the dark, no pun intended.

Regardless... I really wish the TFA would get some traction here in Nashville.

[dunndw]

We can agree to disagree on the 1st point...but we're in COMPLETE agreement on the 2nd.

If we...as a group don't do SOMETHING there won't be a Nashville chapter. I have to agree with John...it's sad that the capitol where all the decisions are made can't drum up enough support to have a chapter here.

[bteague2]

Ya he was a older guy white hair kinda big, I know alot of college age people in Nashville but they'd only be able to attend meetings in the summer mostly.

[Guest SomeGuy]

I just want to clarify, I do not know as fact what John's rates are. I pointed out what I think I remember (and I do think I recalled correctly, I am just not 100% sure) because I want to emphasize one thing I recall him very clearly mentioning: He loses out money wise doing what he does. He sinks a LOT of time/space/effort into this. Anyone who disparages his work doesn't know what they are talking about. Period.

dariks, when I asked John about having him do work should he be needed, he suggested hiring him for an hour, to consult with a local attorney. You get his expertise, without having to pay that rate for all the work. The local attorney would have a (hopefully) good reputation to work with, which would go farther than an out of town lawyer. IOW, John suggested not hiring him for everything, and suggested a cheaper way. The man is a lawyer with principles. I respect very few lawyers, and he is one of them.

Regarding Knoxville, I speak with Bill occasionally, he is a good guy. (Bill heads the Knoxville chapter.) I know he prefers concealed, but I doubt he would say anything like what has been described here.

Regarding advertising, I know once upon a time TFA sent out mass mailings. The return was a wash when compared to the expense. Trying out a stock car hood once is a good way to vary the avenue.

And to be frank, whining in one post about how you don't know what the TFA spends money on, then whine about how nobody has heard of it, then whine about how it spends the money to advertise (especially if you are a non-member) sounds like nothing more than sideline bitching. Either pitch in and help out, or shut up. (I may sound harsh, but until you run a chapter, you cannot believe the amount of MMQBing that people who do nothing are capable of.)

Before you criticize us in the TFA for what we do, ask yourself this, when was the last time you spoke to 5 different state Reps, and a few Senators to try to get a bill passed? If you can answer that you did a few months ago this year during the park carry fight, you are on par with me.

The TFA is fighting, hard, for our right to keep and bear arms. If you like your rights, you will join us.

[molonlabetn]

Well, the one good thing is, if the Nashville chapter officially goes t**s-up (again)... Chattanooga is the same distance from me as Nashville. I'll look into making a visit.

[Marswolf]

The man Mars is quoting is someone I have heard of (though I forget his name). He had a personal dispute with John Harris.

Different person, Someguy.

Back when James Magruder was trying to organize a Tri-Cities chapter of TFA, I got involved with the project just enough to try to get together with James (which never happened for reasons I don't understand) and also asked around about what local folks thought of the TFA.

Mostly, I got blank stares. Even the gun shop owners knew virtually nothing about the organization. The gentleman I quoted was just an ordinary gun owner who didn't think the TFA did much. That was his perception and that is why I mention him.

James had a meeting or two and the local chapter died from lack of interest and, IMHO, a lousy meeting location and no publicity (like Nashville???).

I got turned off on the group when Harris couldn't find time to put together a state convention one year. Conventions can be fun get-togethers or they can be effective planning sessions for legislative action. That's what I think is needed.

I suspect that John Harris is a good man. But TFA is largely a one-man show. Yes I know there are good members and some good chapters, but the TFA should be Tennessee's version of the Virginia Citizen's Defense League. It can't be that if it doesn't expand to more than one person running the show.

So, I'm certainly not anti TFA or John Harris. I'm just disappointed that there isn't serious effort to decentralize the workings of the group. There need to be committees working on grassroots lobbying all over the state, not just one guy in Nashville who talks to representatives when he has time away from his job. These days, committee members statewide could meet in a chat room or using Skype every couple of weeks and plan activities. We could set up a room here on TGO to do that. Seems like TFA could do that too.

Right now, I talk to my National and State Senators and Representatives fairly often and they are pretty much onboard with our desired gun policies. But I only have one vote. The TFA needs to be visible and very publicly supporting legislators and businesses that support our view.

[dunndw]

So, I'm certainly not anti TFA or John Harris. I'm just disappointed that there isn't serious effort to decentralize the workings of the group. There need to be committees working on grassroots lobbying all over the state, not just one guy in Nashville who talks to representatives when he has time away from his job. These days, committee members statewide could meet in a chat room or using Skype every couple of weeks and plan activities. We could set up a room here on TGO to do that. Seems like TFA could do that too.

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Guest Len]

Now there is some sense being made about what TFA should be doing and the mechanics of actually doing it. TGO could EASILY serve as the medium for tall this to happen, along with Skype or similar if we want to hear voices. This would also permit others who can not come to regular meetings at a certain time to still be involved.

[TGO David]

My belief is that the day of the "bricks and mortar club meeting" is on it's decline. The Internet makes meeting with others infinitely easier and forums such as TGO provide a place where it can happen 24/7 without respect for geography or personal schedules.

There will always be a place for in-person get togethers but everything else has already been supplanted by the electronic medium.

Just my $0.02 worth on it.

[TennFire]

I ran across this thread this morning searching for something else on Google.

Anyhow, I wanted to add a few comments.

First, TFA does not encourage or even desire workers for TFA at gun shows to use TFA as bait to sell guns or services. However, there are several TFA members who are also merchants at gun shows who display TFA materials at their booths. I cannot control what they say as individuals anymore than you want the NRA controlling what those of you who are NRA members say or do.

Second, TFA is a 501©(4) nonprofit. To my knowledge, we are the only incorporated membership organization in the state. We are a 501©(4) because of the political involvement.

Third, TFA formed in 1995 with approximately 12 original founders. It still exists today and it is primarily focused on laws, legislation and rights. No other organization in the state does this.

Fourth, I am a lawyer in Nashville with a full time/overtime practice. I donate my time to TFA as a lobbyist and have since 1995. By the way, I also donate all of the office space, use of phones and copy equipment and storage space. TFA pays only hard costs such as shipping charges, postage, and supplies that it needs (e.g., envelopes, letterhead, etc.) TFA does pay a part time person to come in and handle the membership database, mailing shirts and books, etc.

Fifth, I have BEGGED for years for more individuals to take an active role in TFA, its growth and leadership. One example that was mentioned in this thread was a state convention a few years back. A life member and his wife offered to do it, we put out the feelers for dates and locations and then they just walked away from the project because too few were interested in the event to commit to doing it. There are substantial costs involved in time and actual dollars to set up such a grassroots convention and as a volunteer myself I am just stretched too thin as it is. I would love to have a team of volunteers to take on various projects and I am grateful that I do have volunteers in various parts of the state who take on the tasks of local chapters and gun shows.

Sixth, I do not publicly disclose TFA's financial status because the public does not need to know. The information is maintained accurately by an accountant and we try to be very conservative with membership donations. We did talk to an individual openly during a recent Nashville chapter meeting about the topic of what can TFA do to increase name recognition and the offer of the race car was discussed. It was not just putting the logo on cars but the proposal was that the individual would also bring the car to events across the state with TFA on the car. It would be great to see something like that sitting near the entrance to a gun show. The price was a real bargain but once again I cannot do it all.

Seventh, some of you on this thread I recognize and I thank you for joining in to help address some issues. Others I do not know but I look forward to meeting you. I can assure you that TFA is a love of mine, I make nothing from it but yet I continue to do it. Also, I do not charge $4,000 per hour. My rates are less than 10% of that number and I typically give discounts even on top of that to TFA members. One thing I do not do is try to use TFA to promote my law practice though.

John Harris

[TGO David]

John, glad to see you here finally. Thanks for addressing the various concerns in your reply. As you stated in not so many words... one guy can't do it all.

That said, how is Perry progressing? Many of us, myself included, signed up to be notified by email on things related to the Nashville chapter and none of us appear to have heard a peep from him.

I don't want to put the cart before the horse... but if Perry is struggling to make this happen, maybe a different approach at appointing a leader for the Nashville chapter is in order? Perry seems to have been elected by straw vote on the first meeting of the resurrected chapter if my memory serves me. I remember it being that he was pretty much the only guy who expressed any interest and Buford got behind him as a defacto candidate fairly quickly.

I'm not saying that this is or was a bad thing... I just can't help but wonder if other potential candidates were keeping quiet at the time, surveying the lay of the land, and withholding any sort of public commitment until they knew what was going to be involved and expected of them. I know that I for one wasn't expecting to see any sort of election put to vote that night. Not so quickly, at least.

If Perry has lost traction, might I suggest that a call for candidates be put forth at a future meeting? The next meeting could consist of each candidate being given a strictly timed 5-minute access to the podium to state why they feel that they would be a good match for the job. Subsequent to that, the Nashville chapter members could vote and appoint whomever impressed them the most.

Again... all of this may be extremely premature and completely unnecessary so forgive me if that's the case. It just seems that if Perry is doing anything, he's doing it so far behind the scenes that the members aren't even aware of what's going on.

[TGO David]

PS: I'm not saying any of this because I have designs to run. I don't and really wouldn't have the time to do the job justice. While that may put me in danger of becoming the dreaded Monday Morning Quarterback, I try to just view it as being an "Idea Man". But I'm also one who will get in behind whomever is appointed and really does something with that role, and I will support them as much as possible by whatever means available.

[Marswolf]

Nice to see John come by. Unfortunately, what I'm reading does not address the existing problems. It just explains why there have been problems in the past that prevented action.

What I'm suggesting is that if the current policy doesn't work, it would be wise to change it. Sort of a reverse first law of engineering - if it is broken, do fix it.

I think it fair to say that all of the people involved in TFA are good people who believe fervently in the cause of preserving and expanding gun rights. TFA is one of many tools that may be used in that fight. For me, it's a matter of where my limited time and money go to best further that cause.

As far as disclosing financial matters, this is a double-edge sword. If you are completely open, your enemies may use it against you. But being too secretive causes the public to question what you might be hiding and why. We recently had a local homeless shelter have to close because questions arose from major financial sponsors about where the groups money was going. The director refused to open the books and the shelter closed.

I would think that the level of financial disclosure is something the membership would vote to determine at a convention.

I'm not a TFA member, and without some fundamental changes, it looks like I'm unlikely to join, so I'll shut up now. Good luck.

[Guest SomeGuy]

I haven't read all the posts, but I did read Johns. Sorry about being wrong on the rates. I wanted to put that up immediately.\

James had a meeting or two and the local chapter died from lack of interest and, IMHO, a lousy meeting location and no publicity (like Nashville???).

Not true.Chattanooga started in December of 2005, and has had a monthly meting ever since (with one month we took a break, and then started right back up the next month.)

Mars, you make a lot of complaints about the TFA. Why not get involved and help fix them yourself, instead of only complaining that we are not good enough for you because of A, B, C?

[TennFire]

On the Nashville chapter I can say I was at the first 2 meetings but have not been in attendance since. Mainly this has been because I have been sitting in hospice and otherwise attending to my grandmother's health issues since she was diagnosed with cancer last fall. She passed away September 11. As some have said, I have been busy.

The chapter meeting is still being conducted as I understand it at APPS and I believe one is scheduled tonight. Buford hosts them and Perry was running them to my knowledge. Posts are going out on Buford's email list and should be posted on the TFA Online forum (www.tfaonline.org/membeforum) but I have not checked for reasons stated. The chapters, as James noted, in other cities live or die on local involvement and initiative and determination. Nashville cannot be explained other than lack of leaders and lack of time.

Once again, I am more than happy to have people roll up their sleeves and say "let me help you with A, B or C." I really don't have time for people who only want to sit on the sidelines and complain that they are not getting their $35 worth in their opinion because those are the ones who "want" something and who are not looking for the opportunity to "do" something.

[TGO David]

Sorry to hear about your grandmother, John. Sept 11th holds a special place to me for very similar reasons. You have my sincere condolences.

[Marswolf]

Mars, you make a lot of complaints about the TFA. Why not get involved and help fix them yourself, instead of only complaining that we are not good enough for you because of A, B, C?

Someguy, I'm in the Tri-Cities, not Chattanooga. I tried to get involved at one time, as I've mentioned in prior posts. I was talking about James Magruder Holbrook. Sorry I got his name wrong before. I know you have a good group there in Chattanooga. Morristown does too. But I've started enough groups to know what works and what doesn't. There were mistakes made here that prevented the TFA chapter from getting started.

I took a look at the TFA 2005 tax return at http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2005/621/654/2005-621654693-02978279-9.pdf and a lot can be gleaned from the document. Basically, it appears that John runs the small organization as he chooses. As best I can figure, there are no voting board members or whatever to tell him to go in a different direction. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but no voting members are indicated.

Compare this with the return of the VCDL at http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2005/541/900/2005-541900291-0307c8b4-ZO.pdf

I've been around a while, in fact more than twice your years, and depending on your POV, I''m a silly old fart, or I'm a highly experienced leader. I'll vote for the latter. There have been times when I found a group with the best of intentions had become an impediment to getting work done rather than helping. That includes groups that I have founded. One thing that I always do is make sure the constitution and bylaws of a group set standards of accountability for the officers and ensure that no one becomes a permanent leader. No one makes right decisions all the time and they need others around them to stop them from screwing up.

Again, I think John Harris is well intentioned and a good man. But the TFA is his private club, under his full control. He apparently allows others to belong to but not make decisions. And I think some of the decisions made have been questionable. I doubt that the TFA will ever grow much beyond it's meager membership numbers in its present form and a group trying to pressure legislators to vote their way needs members.

So again, I'll say I'll shut up and good luck to you and the other TFA members. Only reason I posted this was to respond to you. I'll continue to privately lobby our legislative critters as a private citizen. I think that will be more effective for all of us. I'm not sitting on the sidelines and complaining. I've never been one to do that. I'm actually getting things done rather than explaining why I can't do something.