Marswolf

I wasn't jumping on you, mrnord. Sorry if it came across that way. Just trying to point out that you do have to check stuff out yourself rather than just listen to an instructor. Some think you can't carry in a bank. Some think you can carry in parts of an alcohol serving restaurant, etc.

It's the longer initial throw that makes it safer. It is possible to make a safer pistol. Other manufacturers have done so. We've gone over the number of guns fallacy. There is nothing so uncommon as common sense. Some of us have it; some of us don't.

The name that Glock desired stamped on the cartridge was "45 Glock" but the SAAMI folks wouldn't go for that so it became the "45 GAP". I suspect someone really wanted it named the 45 Gaston. BTW, if anyone has a spare 45 GAP round you would like to send to me for my cartridge collection, I'd be glad to reimburse you for the cost. I collect odd rounds and really don't plan to buy a box of 45 GAP just for display.

Actually, you are almost sane and only dabble in Glocks when you forget to take your medicine. GhostDog is another matter....

I think the carry permit status is also linked to your tag registration, so that in computerized systems, the information that the registrant of the vehicle has a carry permit comes up. If I was a patrolman, I'd want to know that the driver has a carry permit. That way I could relax a bit knowing his background had been checked out. I'd worry about the ones who might have a gun without a permit. I keep preaching on this. Some of the instructors at these classes give you wrong information. Note that I said some. You need to read TCA and research other "facts" yourself. It's your responsibility to know the law.

The Daewoo DP51 9mm is the official military gun, as I recall. http://www.floridagunworks.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=FG&Product_Code=432&Category_Code=FIREARMS+H+D $329.95 The 9mm can use S&W 59 series magazines. They also make a 45 ACP model, the DH45 as well as a 9mm compact. I found a good overview and review at http://www.gunblast.com/RKCampbell_Daewoo.htm

That's what I wanted to point out this morning but didn't have time. Saints, I think we need to get down and dirty in the trenches and make sure we win. But you are sweeter than I am.

That's it Tung...errr...Broadside. Thanks.

They did this in Virginia. Don't have time wo write much now, but you can get the story at http://www.hk94.com/hk/Anti-gun-Reporter-Exposes-CCW-Holderand39s-Personal-Information-t22649.html

I think both of us were going a bit over the top. I'll accept your apology and offer mine. But my dad can beat up your dad. It's been around a while and I'd bet my life that it won't fail. They keep tinkering with things like trigger pull weight, but the basic design has proven itself. I think it's Hyundai who has out a handgun with a somewhat similar design. It's whatever is the official military handgun in South Korea. Lower price than H&K or SIG. I was pretty impressed with the ones I saw. But you have to manually push the hammer forward when it's cocked.

Rather than beating the dead horse more about Glock design, let me point out what H&K has done to address the situation. Other manufacturers, like S&W, have used different designs. Maybe a bit of a shift from the negative to the positive would be good. H&K has available a trigger they call either the LEM (Law Enforcement Modification) or more currently the CDA (Combat Defense Action). It's standard on the P2000 and available for the USP. The CDA trigger setup uses a two-part hammer -- an internal hammer and an external hammer. When the slide is cycled, either manually or by firing the pistol, the internal hammer is cocked but the external hammer follows the slide forward to its normal just-off-the-firing-pin position. When the slide is racked the hammer spring is roughly 80% cocked. When you pull the trigger you finish cocking the external hammer and fire the weapon. Depending on springs installed the trigger pull is around 5, 7, 8, or 10 pounds. If for some reason the round does not fire, the gun becomes a standard DA weapon. Trigger pull is 11.47 pounds but you just pull the trigger again to re-strike. No slide racking is required. Now, this trigger has a couple of interesting "tricks". First is that while the release pressure for firing is 4.5 pounds, the trigger has a long throw. That is you have a long pull to fire it. This largely eliminates the accidental firing of the handgun from inadvertently hitting the trigger. The first part of this throw is against only about 2# of finger pressure. At a point, near the end of that trigger stroke, resistance is encountered. If additional force is then applied to the trigger, the pistol will fire. But there is yet another trick. The trigger reset is very short. So you don't have to release the trigger very far to take the next shot. The external hammer stays back and you essentially have a standard SA handgun release at this point. Release the trigger all the way and you go back to the long throw situation. So, you end up with a handgun that has the reliability and safety you expect in a quality gun. Fully supported chamber, low likelihood of NDs, and double-strike capability. Changing a couple of springs will also allow you to change the trigger release pressure too, as a bonus. I'll also add that the guns can be de-cocked for additional safety in the USP and the standard P2000 if desired. http://www.hk-usa.com/p2000_specs.html

Actually I think I'm supposed to wear my Glock cap.

I've thought about your argument quite a bit in the past and there has to be more to the ND problem than just that there are a lot of Glocks. When I go to the range, I see a lot more aggregate of handguns other than Glocks. But the guns that end up shooting their owners tend to be Glocks, or at least that is how it seems. I agree that it is the fault of the owner. Glocks don't go off without the trigger being pulled, but there is something about the design that makes it much more likely for the user to pull the trigger sufficiently to produce the ND on a Glock than other handguns. What it is I don't know. But it does appear to be a real phenomenon. I don't have to know why fire is hot to know not to put my hand into it. If negligent self-shootings don't happen as often with other handguns as with a Glock, then I think it reasonable to conclude that Glock has a design making it less safe than other handguns. My Beretta 92 is a SB model from around 1983 or so, before they were modified for M9 military use. My Beretta has been putting in service since I bought it and never had a problem. I remember the Beretta problems that came with M9 development and US manufacturing, but I doubt many younger people do. If Beretta has a PR problem like Glock, I don't know of it. Maybe it's the people I hang around with, but I never hear about problems with Berettas except environmental things like blowing dust and sand in Iraq, a problem fixed with a change to the proper lubricant. But I constantly hear about Glock kabooms, and Glock legs. It's a bit of a stretch, in my view, to say that Beretta has a PR problem and Glock doesn't. Unlike H&K and Beretta, Glock has a top of the line marketing group - like a good circus. Price and marketing are why they sell. And as you probably remember, I think elitism is why a lot of Glocks are sold. Inexperienced handgunners want a gun "like the cops carry." They think they are buying status. If you buy an H&K, you are buying status of course, same as if you buy a Ferrari. But it's status based on design and performance, not marketing hype. I think your comment that, "if one doesn't want to deal w/ the unsupported chamber, just get a different gun" is precisely what I'm preaching. Designing a gun with a dangerous unsupported chamber strikes me as reckless and use of such a gun is foolish when there are safe alternatives. Safe handguns are readily available. So, once I examined the situation sufficiently, realizing what I had in a Glock, I did what you said. I got rid of the Glocks and paid a bit more for properly designed handguns.

You know, H&Ks are expensive. Then again their construction, and research and development, make them more expensive to produce. Lots of little things that you don't notice until you really start looking carefully at them.

Welcome. I play the part of the resident Glock critic here. Every board needs one. We have a get-together coming up in a couple of weekends in Kingsport. Looks like barbecue and shooting. Maybe you can come up.

Does it not strike you that this is not only begging the question, but contradictory? Actually, Glock's ergonomics are one of the things I don't like about them. I found that I had to correct for their weird grip angle and bore axis. But that's just an opinion. Maybe in some cases, but you can cock and de-cock them. Can't do that with a Glock. I can't agree that this is a Ford vs. Chevy debate. Maybe a Pinto vs. Mustang debate. The Glock has very real design flaws. Yes, it can be made to work OK with specific ammunition, but there is not the additional safety factor one expects in a good handgun. Compare it to a H&K or SIG, or Beretta, or XD, or whatever. These guns have supported chambers. They do not fire out of battery. They have heavier slide rails. They have heavier support for those rails. Most, but not all, will field strip with a round in the chamber or have safety features to prevent an AD on disassembly. Glocks do work for a lot of people, but they are an outdated design that needs reworking to make them safer. I'm not a Glock hater, contrary to what folks think. I'm just very critical and realistic about all guns. Over the years all of these guns have made incremental changes to enhance ergonomics and safety. Most changes are done quietly and without fanfare. No big "Generation X" announcements. But the changes are made. In Glocks case the things that need fixing are serious design flaws, and they have not been fixed. So feel free to use your Glock. It will likely fire when needed. Just don't try telling me they are as good as other quality handguns. They aren't.

OK, now we need a shooting report.

I have never cared for Ridgewood. I prefer pulled barbecue. You have to remember that though I'm a Tennessean, all of my family is from Georgia and some of them were in the barbecue business. So I may be prejudiced. Or then again I may just be right as usual.

Hollow point rounds raise a lot of questions about how they will react in a given circumstance. The idea is that they open up to dissipate energy and increase the size of the wound channel. Unfortunately, there are a lot of factors that determine the actual actions. This is a 9mm Hydra-Shok that went through a 1" oak chair seat at close range.The hard wood prevented expansion of the bullet. Might do the same with a sternum or rib. Some HPs don't expand properly when fired through a jean jacket. You just have to choose a round based on what it is expected to do, and hope that is what happens. But it's always good to try to plan a shot to reduce the posibility of collateral damage. In a lot of self-protection scenarios, there isn't time for that.

With manufacturers discontinuing models that chamber the 45GAP and other manufacturers announcing they won't make a handgun in that caliber, it's pretty much dead. Even the fanatics at Glocktalk are hedging. When that happens, there is a problem that even the blind can see.

Oddly enough, I've never tried Pratt's. I'm a nut about BBQ. My family bought a dog from them back when they were Pratt's Farmland on Sullivan Street back in the 50s. A Jonesborough based BBQ place, Boby's Boogie Pig Bar-B-Q, just moved into Blountville. OK, but not special. My current local favorite is the Red Pig, in JC. But I bring my own sauce to any of them.

I've never been that crazy about the 1911 either as a carry weapon. That's why I bought my own Beretta to carry rather than be issued a M1911 back in the early 80s. But that's another matter and a long story. Everyone should own a 1911, just for fun and tradition. Actually, I think the analogy between the 1911 and Glock is a good one. Both 1911 and Glock aficionados insist their handguns are the best in the face of mountains of contrary information, fair analysis, and reality. It should be noted that the 1911 was improved with a firing pin block in the Series 80 to prevent the drop discharge problem. I know some people don't care for the Series 80, but it is safer and a good gunsmith can take care of the other "problems" with trigger pull and whatever. I might also add that I've owned a couple of military 1911s and a number of more modern ones. The 1911 was improved significantly over the years in a lot of ways. It has never been a static design. There is a good reason a lot of earlier 1911s got the nickname "Jam-o-matic." My point is that Colt didn't stick its head in the sand and pretend there was no safety problem. It seems to me that this is what the "Glockies" are doing. They are ignoring a number of design faults in the Glock. No matter how much is written and said about Glock problems, they choose to dismiss the critics as having some mysterious personal reason to say untrue nasty things about Glocks. But criticism of the Glock design is legitimate. It has some serious problems that should have been addressed long ago. Glock needs to fix these problems. It needs a new design that fixes them instead of ranting against the critics and pretending their design is perfect. The Glock design never would have made it out the door at H&K or SIG or other quality gun manufacturers. As Lilly Thomlinson's character Edit Ann used to say, "and that's the truth."

Ballistically, it is a good round. But I just don't see the point of it. There are other good rounds. I think it will survive with always expensive and difficult to find ammo. Nothing wrong with it, just nothing that makes it extra special.

I wouldn't hesitate to use them in a SIG.

It does sound like fun. That's an aspect that we sometimes forget about training. Training doesn't have to be super-serious testosterone laced pretend killing. Good training can be a lot of fun. That's the way it should be. Some of the best training I've gotten has come from playing around on a range with people who are better than I am at hitting a target.