Grunt81

Hey bud, to follow up on Patton: There's less less case capacity because the heavier bullet is longer. Thus, the bullet is seated deeper to meet OAL. Because the bullet is seated deeper, less powder can fit in the case. However, because there is less space for powder, there is a smaller volume for combustion to occur. Smaller volume for combustion = higher pressure. Furthermore, even though the heavier bullet starts off slower, because it has a greater mass, it will carry more momentum. Therefore, the 124 grain bullet will have similar penetration and expansion as 115 or 147 grain. Give me a call if you'd like me to elaborate.

Major Kong, thanks for the response. Sounds good! You free this weekend? I load 9mm, .223, and .308. I'm technically good right now on SP and SR primers, and I have enough pistol powder for about 1,500 rounds. I have 100 .223 rounds loaded, and maybe enough powder for another 150 rounds. What I wanted to is get an 8lb jug of a good .308 powder like IMR 4064 or similar and some LR primers. I'm thinking I'd like to get the order placed in 6 to 8 weeks. This will give me time to get a couple more paychecks (just started a job here in Oak Ridge last Thursday, and it'll a few more guys a chance to get in on this. Sound good? Reefer Mac, let's do it! I have an unopened box of 90 clay pigeons, paper targets, spotting scope, etc. I do need to do rezero my .308 and AR 15s. Pm on the way.

Hey Ya'll. I did a search and didn't find anything on the first page, so I apologize if this has been covered before.   I'm interested in two things:   1) Are there members on this forum who are also members at ORSA in Oak Ridge?   I'm new to Oak Ridge and will be submitting my membership to ORSA in the next week or two. I'll be glad to meet anyone to shoot pistols, rifles, or shotguns. I know there should be a range tour for me but in case it isn't thorough enough, I'd be glad to learn the ropes from anyone who's familiar with the facility.   I'm also interested in getting my feet wet in F T/R competition. I live about a mile and a half from ORSA. Any pointers or coat tails to ride would be appreciated.   2) If any hand loaders in the Oak Ridge/Knoxville area would like to do a group buy on Powder Valley for components, I'd be happy to participate or facilitate the transaction. Powder Valley has great prices, even more so when we get to split the HAZMAT fee.   Thanks.   Grunt

Thank you for that info. Was that for mid-range or long range?

Thank you, DMark. I'll definitely give them a call to inquire about the types of matches they shoot there.   Is your .223 competitive for mid-range F-T/R or is it more of a "I'm just shooting for fun, not to win" type of thing?   I do have a varmint AR-15 which I've shot at paper at 200 yards. With 69 grain Nosler Custom Competition bullets, I shot a 5-shot 1" group at 200 yards to make 0.5 MOA. Plinking at every yard line up to 600 and I'm on the money using a 12x Nikon BDC 600. If this rifle has anything hindering it, it's the fact that it's a 20" barrel rather than 26-30" and of course it's a semi-automatic rather than a bolt-action.   My .308 is a Savage 11. It's a shooter, but it has a thin-contour hunting profile factory barrel. I have hit 4 out of 5 shots at 1,000 yards before with Sierra Match Kings, as long as adjusted 0.1 Mil down between each shot.   In your experience, does this type of shooting compete, or is it more of just having a fun time coming out and shooting? If so, I definitely have a good action for building a midrange FTR rifle.   Thanks again.

Hello to my fellow firearm enthusiasts. I want to get into competitive high power rifle shooting. I'm particularly interested in shooting F-Class and I figure FT/R is a good place to start since I have (2) .223 Rem and (1) .308 rifle. For anyone who has competed in FT/R, does .308 dominate mid-range or does .223 stand a decent chance of beating .308 between 300-600 yards? I know at the end of the day it comes down to shooter abilities and quality ammunition, but what are the trends right now? I'm hoping someone here in east Tennessee is familiar with the high power club at Oak Ridge Shooting Range. What type of competitions are held there? When? Rifles used? Thank you for any insight any of you can provide for FT/R mid-range and long range competition. It's much appreciated.

First and foremost, happy father's day out there to all you dads!    I did a Google search and couldn't find any straightforward scrap lead dealers. Ebay and Amazon are out of the question. Anyone know where I can find some? Shipping prices for buying online are generally a deal breaker since the prices go up around $4/lb if not more. I've heard the magic number was $1/lb but that price seems to have gone the way of the dodo. What's a good price for scrap lead or pre-made ingots?   I would still flux ingots before casting, so I don't mind making ingots from range lead.   I'm willing to drive to Alcoa, Maryville, Louisville, hell, pretty much anywhere within an hour of Knoxville.   Thanks for any info you can give me.

If you're worried about over penetration, you'll be better served with factory jacketed hollow points out of a center fire pistol, no smaller than 9mm, or a 20 or 12-gauge loaded with bird shot and an open cylinder/no choke (immediate spreading). Any 55 grain .223 ammo should go right through a human being without armor on, unless it's designed to hit the brakes in tissue by fragmenting on impact. Bad guys seldom wear armor. If all you have for home defense is an AR-15, I'd reload it and develop a light load. If reloading isn't an option for you, then go with a bullet that is designed to expand at least a little (polymer tipped bullet like Z-max or A-max, Nosler Varmageddon will expand some. But more than ever, knowing your target and considering it's background applies to you.   Jm2c

In my opinion, yes, the bullet will penetrate the sidewall of a common personal vehicle while it's moving. I'm no expert, but it is a question of physics. If the bullet is traveling at 1,200 feet per second at 25 yards away from the muzzle, then it is traveling at over 800 miles per hour. With respect to the velocity of the bullet, a tire rotating at 60 miles per hour is practically still. I think the spinning tire would be hard-pressed to deflect the bullet. I also think a round nose FMJ 124gr NATO 9mm will penetrate the thickest knob of any off-road tire tread at close range.   Maybe a mechanical engineer will chime in.

Much appreciated. My wife got out as a Marine Captain. We're happy to live among folks who are generally more patriotic than where we came from.

Just got back from church. Thank you everyone for the welcomes. Thanks for the heads up. I didn't know some of these hoops existed.

Hey ya'll! I'm happy to meet my new TGO brothers. I'm not exactly new to TGO, but my wife, two cats, and I, made the journey from Los Angeles to Knoxville a couple of weeks ago. I'm loving it so far. Even in the worse time of the day, the traffic still isn't anywhere near as bad as in LA. Everything I need and want is within 15 minutes and our cost of living just cut in half, to include auto insurance.   There's nothing firearms related I'm not interested in. I'm all about long range precision, tactical pistol shooting, and want to get into hunting a deer this season. We've got two AR-15s, a Mossberg 535 12-gauge with 2 chokes, Glock 17, Beretta 92F, Savage .308, and fully custom Ruger 10-22. I might also have a Winchester Mod 94 lever-action in 30-30 on the way, so maybe I'll do some cowboy shooting. I also reload 3 calibers and will be building a bench soon. We'll both be getting CCW licenses once employment is locked on.   Glad to meet ya'll. In closing, I'll leave you with a quote from a Kings of Leon song I heard recently, "If you give up New York, I'll give you Tennessee...The only place to be."

Here's another question for you all fine folks. How are diesel prices out there? Higher or lower than 87 octane? In Cali, diesel tends to be around 20 cents higher than 91 octane more often than not.

Point made on the Taco. There's a lot of fans of them, as this thread proves. I didn't know they were as popular in Tennessee, as they are in California. Any given day, I am likely to see 3x as many Tacos as all other truck makes combined.   A good friend of mine bought a 2007 Crew Cab Tacoma for a work vehicle. He paid $18K last year and it had around 70,000 miles on it. He loves it and won't be getting rid of it anytime soon.   If American made trucks suck so much and are "truck-like" vehicles, let's hear some horror stories to back that up. Who has had pesky issues long before they were due? I've heard of a GMC Sierra 3500 diesel going for 600,000 miles. But that's more truck than I'll ever need.    A recent reputable car reviewer (forgot the name but can be found on YouTube) ranked the redesigned 2015 Chevy Colorado ahead of the 2015 Tacoma. Although I will say, Tacomas are getting a makeover under the hood and outside for 2016. The rankings and reviews should be interesting. If I were to buy a new truck, it'd be between those two. As of right now, I have nothing to tow so even an El Camino would work for what I need it for. That could change later, in which case I will probably only consider a full size. By the way, Ram Trucks have vowed to lead the market in fuel economy.   Some have asked me why I even want a truck in the first place. The best answer I give them is to be able to load up the bed with stuff I don't want inside my SUV with seats folded down. In example, a deer carcass or a scoop of 50/50 manure/ wood chips. I'd probably never need a 5th wheel either. If I were to stop tent camping, then a pop up camper would be a logical choice. Hopes this gives a good idea of my needs/wants.   As of now, a post 1998 Ford Ranger is first on my list, unless there's a smoking deal on a full size that negates the difference in fuel economy. 

Thanks EssOne. Believe me, I never hesitate to.

Funny, but wrong. I think the San Fernando Valley is where the most porn is filmed in the world, in places such as Chatsworth, Van Nuys, and North Hollywood. I know a guy (not a friend) who works the night shift editing all that crap.   A couple weeks ago the wife and I drove from the SFV, to Monterrey to vist her sister at NPS, then to Yosemite to spend a week camping, hiking, and fishing. They ain't whistling dixie. We drove through 100s of thousands of acres of farm lands. Many fields were dry and had no crops. There were huge signs that said, "Pray For Rain," and "No Water No Jobs." It was pretty dam sad to see that.   It would be nice if California could be divided into 3 separate states. Each would have their own governor, election polls, and laws. Wouldn't it be crazy to see that? Drive for 6 hours north of San Diego and all of a sudden you're in a place where hunting is more frequent, CCWs are way easier to get, etc..etc... It's too bad that all the evidence in the country shows that places where there are more guns have less crime. Our founding fathers knew that. Yet these politicians, including Obama, refuse to accept that. Don't worry, good folks from the south. The only people coming to Tennessee from Commiefornia bleed red, white, and blue just like ya'll.

You know, your guys are right about that. Both the Tacoma and Frontier have awesome track records for longevity and reliability. My issue with them as that I'd probably never buy them used because the used price for those trucks is usually outrageous. I could only justify buying one of them new, but then that would be a whole other thread just considering new trucks only.   I apologize. I should have specified. Let's go ahead and compare Chevy, Dodge/Ram, and Ford models :usa: . I'm more of a Chevy guy than a Ford, but I've heard several people say the Ranger kicks the S10's behind so the Ranger is definitely in the running. What I don't like about Chevy trucks  is they are so low to the ground. I'd rather have a decent clearance from the factory without having to do a mandatory lift job so Sierras and Silverados are hurting there.    I don't like the body style of the F-150's of the early 2000s  :puke:   I have personal experience with driving a Ford E-250 and Dodge Ram 1500 for different jobs I had. I would pretty much abuse these vehicles and they took all that I dished out.    So a better question would be, what have you guys found to have the most reliable engines and transmissions from your trucks? I am mechanically inclined and can certain things some people will pay a mechanic $60 to $500 to do. I understand all manufacturers are capable of a lemon, but what seems to have the best track record and ease of basic repairs?

Hey all. I'm looking into buying a used 4wd truck later this year. I don't really care if it's a 4,6, or 8 cylinder. Just that fuel economy is reasonable for a 4wd. I'd prefer a stick shift, but am open to automatics. It also has to be able to reliably fit a car seat for a baby. I'm not looking to tow anything, just use the bed for dear carcasses, fishing kayaks, and some gardening and building materials.   What makes and models have you all have good experiences, that can get the job done for what I need it for? I'd prefer great gas mileage, but it's not a deal breaker if something else is more reliable.   Thanks!

Semper Fi, Devil Dog.   As others have said, there's absolutely no tact in introducing yourself, only to abruptly start bitching about something.  Come on killer, is 10 cents per box really too much too ask for? I'm sure it's going to a great cause. A dime here and there to help ensure our rights isn't too bad at all or the maintenance of ranges or what not isn't much.   And by the way, look how many people have thanked you for your service. You wouldn't get that in some other states. It's nice to see how many patriotic people still know that freedom ain't free.   And before you think you should go somewhere else, don't underestimate the wealth of knowledge that resides here.

 I forgot to mention, I have 2 Nikon P223s on my 2 AR-15s. The 20" barreled Windham Weaponry VEX has a 4-12x40 w/BDC while the 16" SW MP 15 has a 3-9x40 s/BDC.    Both of the scopes have a Bullet Drop Compensator which means there are either open circles or hash marks to compensate for bullet drop up to 600 yards. It clearly states on the scope that this BDC is designed for a 55 grain polymer-tipped bullet such as the Hornady V-max or Nosler Varmageddon. My preferred target bullet is 69 grain match HPBT while my prefferred plinking bullet up to 600 yards is the Xtreme 55grain FMJ w/cannelure.   If my Xtreme bullets are impacting low at the farther yard lines using the BDC, then I know it's time for me to up the charge until it does, just for me since I plink with .223 out to 600 yards. With CFE 223, I settled on 27.2 grains, with a light to medium crimp. The case mouth is right in the middle of the cannelure using the Lee FCD. This load, using PMC brass and Remington 7.5 SRP followed my BDC, out of the 20" barrel, all the way out to 600 yards. My wife was shooting the Smith and Wesson so I don't remember if it followed that scope's BDC. I don't remember what group size was the 5.56 chamber and 16" barrel, but it couldn't be more than 2.4" at 100 yards using a bipod and rear sandbag, 5-shot group. Once again, that's my wife's rifle so she shoots it more. 

I agree with Caster. If you're only shooting with 400 yards, whether iron sights or optics, and you're accomplishing what you want to accomplish, then just call it done.   By the way, it's well known on other forums that Hornady Load Data is definitely on the conservative side. You should get a Lyman or a Lee. They don't manufacture bullets or powder so you can trust them to not be biased or exagerate. Still, you should study manufacturer load data to paint a nice picture of what's realistic and what's not. For example, with a similar bullet, Hodgon's website shows a starting load of 26.0 grains with velocity of 3,133 fps. The max load with CFE223 is 27.8 grains which yields a velocity of 3,329 fps, granted, it's with a 24" barrel http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/rifle.   I will say, that according to all my ballistics research, Hornady bullets tend to increase pressure before other manufacturers bullets do. For example, max lodad data for a 190 grain Hornady bullet will travel 7fps faster than a 200 grain Swift bullet, while only using a charge of 0.3 grains higher. Whereas, a 180 grain bullet will travel 37 fps faster than a Speer 180 grain using 0.1 grains more than the 190. All of this Hodgon's data using max charges of CFE223, although the pressures differ slightly. I've come to the conclusion that Hornady bullets, MAYBE because of the jacket alloy composition, raises pressures faster on the jacket alloy composition of other manufacturers, or maybe because the jacket's coefficient of friction MIGHT be higher. Thus, you will get less velocity for a given charge. All of this is speculation. I cannot prove any of this as fact, NOR do I avoid Hornady bullets. I just loaded some 208 Amax to test in .308 at 1,000 yards.   Just for ####s and giggles, if I was the OP, I would make 5-10 rounds each at 0.4 grain increments until you reach max, just to see what the velocity yields. Some people even find out their own "do not exceed" charge at a certain OAL, by making sure the primer has obvious flattening or piercing. Then they back off from that charge to suit their needs. It's not worth loosening a primer pocket prematurely, unless you plan on competing and have money to blow out Lapua brass regularly  :pleased:   Once again, if you're happy with your loads' performance out your rifle, I wouldn't change anything.

The Beretta Neos U-22 I used to have hated Augila .22lr ammo. It would jam almost every other round due to a failure to feed. I think the springs were too stiff or the feed ramp was too steep, becuase my Ruger 10 22 has fed everything I've ever loaded in it flawlessly.

That's a good point. 0.015" deeper OAL in 9mm, and I can feel the recoil be a bit snappier. But in the case of the .308 which uses 40-46 someodd grains of powder, the same OAL change will be a lot less signifcant in pressure increase. An acclaimed xtreme long range bench rest shooter named Lynn told me that. It makes sense when you think about it. Changing OAL serves only to find ideal jump to the lands. 15 thousandths deeper or longer and I think the velocity will still be in the same accuracy node.   Still, what works for some may not work for others. If your method works for you and you've never blown up a gun, then have it partner.

For some bolt action rifles, such as Remingtons, the magazine is often the limiting factor. If you want to use the magazine in a Remington, then the OAL of 2.810 is usually what guys settle on. However, for my Savage 11, I think I can fit a 3 inch round in the magazine. I just loaded up some 208gr Amax to test at 1,000 yards. For the ogive to touch the rifling, the OAL was 2.96"ish. I went ahea and loaded them to 2.940" is for my first load development. I get a different OAL for each bullet I shoot.   I can share an easy method, easier than slitting a case neck, to figure out the OAL for any bullet's ogive to touch the lands.   Remember, develop powder charge first, then play with OAL.   Good luck.

By the way, my wife has an uncle who lives on the Tennessee River in Knoxville, so we do have a point of contact.   But if any members who live in the Knoxville area know of any rental properties, a PM would be much appreciated.