The Rabbi

Yeah. But it was effective at stopping the BG.

It's a seminal design for sure. And probably at one time it was a category killer, the small pocket auto. But today the pocket auto is probably the fastest growing category in handguns and we see the Kel Tec, the new Walther, the Kahr, etc, all based on different designs.

Well, yeah. But what kind of fun would that have been?

No. No hashgacha.

Thank Lee Harvey Oswald and Sirhan Sirhan (those Palestinians screwing things up for the rest of us). If Oswald had just bought his rifle in a hardware store like most people they probably never would have thought about outlawing mail order. As I often say, bad cases make bad laws.

A Hi Power is not a 1911. Not particularly close even. But they are a hard sell today and for some reason just not that popular. Great guns though. What principles have been incorporated into modern pistols that were first found in the 1911?

It's not a Ford vs Chevy argument. It's a discussion about guns that assume almost an iconic status. Anyone looking for a semi auto .22 rifle is going to look at and probably buy a Ruger 10/22. There are plenty of good .22 semis out there but the Ruger seems to have the best combination of features to appeal to the most people. Anyone looking for a deer rifle is going to look at and probably buy a lever action 30-30. There are plenty of deer rifles and all of them are good. But the lever 30-30 just does it so well. Ditto anyone looking for a ECQB/back up pistol. They will end up looking at a snub, probably a j-frame Smith or the equivalent. There are other things that will do the job but this does it so well. And so on. And sometimes there is no clear winner.

If you can produce one or two cases where someone sold a gun to a criminal and then got prosecuted for a subsequent crime (where the gun was recovered) your case would be a lot stronger. The downside to using the form is that a certain number of buyers (like me) will be put off and won't buy the gun from you. If you're OK with that then go for it. Me, I prefer to sell guns within the letter of the law.

I doubt you were born by then. I wouldnt be doing much of anything, being only 5 years old.

That's exactly the point: most criminals will not be wary. If they're criminals, they lie. That might be news to you. If they lie on the 4473 then they'll get prosecuted. If they lie on the Mickey73 they'll get scolded. Maybe. Are you planning on keeping the forms for 20 years like I have to?

So your argument is that because the gov't asks intrusive questions then private citizens ought to ask them too? This is so even though the paper offers no protection to the buyer or seller (as you admit). Nor can the buyer be prosecuted for giving false info (unlike the Federal form). So essentially this is a "feel good" piece of paper. Kind of like gun control laws.

That's happened here. I dont know why the guy got denied (they dont tell us) and he never came back. Maybe the wife filed a restraining order? I don't know.

Obviously you can sell to anyone you want in any manner you want. My point is that: 1) The form is not required by law. 2) The form is not binding or legally meaningful in any way. 3) The form asks for information that I find personally insulting. 4) The form offers no protection to either buyer or seller above and beyond a simple bill of sale. If you can answer those objections then I'd recommend people use it.

You'd have a hard time naming any. The Taurus is merely a copy of the Smith. Colt has ceased production of its Dick. Ruger hasn't gained much traction with its SP101 because it is so heavy. And the Charter2000 is junk, with the original company going under some years ago. Not considering price, I'd rather have a Korth than this Smith. Unfortunately in the real world price plays a big role. In service revolver the Smith Model 10/64 ate Colt's lunch, not because the guns were better (they're not) but because they were cheaper and easier to service. The Model 10 is still a catalogue item and has been in continuous production since 1899 more or less.

Intrusion is intrusion, whether by the gov't or by an individual.

Huh? Did you read the definition of straw man? Your argument was that no one with anything to hide should have a problem answering the questions on the mickey mouse form. I queried that if you didnt have anything to hide then you would be OK with daily police searches of your house. That very argument, "an honest man has nothing to hide" has been used frequently to justify intrusive searches and questions of one kind or another. Go rent the movie The Front sometime to see what I mean. Nothing straw man here. You aren't going to consent to police searches and I'm not going to answer mickey mouse questions on a made up form. Both for the same reason. If you requested an off-the books purchase of a store gun I would decline as that is illegal. What made you think I engage or would be willing to engage in illegal behavior?

I'd say you were wasting my time. There is no requirement in law for such a form. It is also idiotic: anyone who would be ineligible isn't going to have scruples about lying on the form. Now you can make the same case for the 4473. The difference is that lying on the 4473 is a federal felony offense and will be prosecuted as such given the right circumstances. Lying on some mickey-mouse form isn't. The seller, not being required to ask such information or provide proof, isn't any better protected for having the form. As for "no one without a shady background would have a problem", how about if I send the cops to search your house? Daily. If you aren't shady then you shouldn't have a problem with that.

Is the MP5 any better than an Uzi, given the price difference? I don't know. With the Benelli, I have no doubt it is a fine gun. But it has plenty of competition for all kinds of reasons so I dont think it is a clear category killer.

That too. Actually I was imputing a rationale for why Tennesseans should be any different from Kentuckians. Or any other state where they have carry in restaurants with zero problems.

That's a toughie. The SMG is really a dying breed. No civillian sales and no interest from military or LE. Auto loading shotguns: again no clear winner. I dont know how many Benellis have been sold compared to Rem 1100s. Give it another 20 years or so and we'll see. auto .22 rifle: absolutely the 10/22.

From the noise generated I see the point didnt get made. The j-frame is ideally suited to what it does. It is designed for ECQB or back up. It is excellently suited to that role and will continue to do that probably forever. I cannot think of another gun that can assume that role. The lever 30-30 is in the same class. What is going to be an improvement over that? In the category of service pistol there really isnt a category killer. Countries use the Glock, the SIG, the Hi Power, the CZ etc. There is no clear winner. For sure not the 1911, which has limited use and was never adopted by other countries. In battle rifles there doesnt seem to be a clear cut winner although the M1/M14 is the clear loser. The fact that some have been held over is merely a historical fact not connected to its value. Is the M14 really better than the Cetme/G3/FN-FAL? I dont know. Neither does anyone else. It isn't a clear winner. For the Ruger, it is true a Hammerli is a better pistol. But not for $350 out the door. The Ruger Mark I series will probably be around forever because it provides a reliable accurate .22 pistol at a good price point that will make it popular. Yes, the Woodsman and High Standard were contenders but they arent made now and probably never sold in as much volume.

It goes further than that Frank. KY has had an on-premises law since they started I think. People in TN are no less responsible than people in KY and there they have had zero problems. In VA you can open carry into a bar and I dont think they've had issues with it. I guess people here are just dumber or something. I don't know what the thinking is.

That's why it's still standard issue in armies all over the world, right?

I am talking about guns produced and sold because they are still the best at what they do. The 1911 is not in that class. The AK might be although you dont see too many countries adopting it. The Glock is too recent. The M14 is used because 1) it shoots a larger caliber bullet, 2) we have plenty in arsenal. People who actually carried them (at least those I've talked to) didnt have too much positive to say about them). I'll add the Ruger Mark I and progeny. There just isnt a lot of serious competition in that class of pistol.

AK, largely superceded by the AR platform. 1911, totally superceded by everything else out there. Glock. Too early to tell. Has created a revolution in that every manufacturer is making a striker fired polymer pistol. 20mm Vulcan. I guess so. Rem 700. Basically a Mauser action. M1/M14 totally superceded by AR platform. M14 has distinction as the shortest-serving battle rifle in the US.