Cruel Hand Luke

Who said ALWAYS? Of course luck plays a part ...both for us and them.But most people screw up because they didn't know what to look for or how to get ahead of the other guy's decision making cycle and preempt the assault. And you don't learn that stuff spending all your time shooting tight little groups at 7 yards......... And in fact there ACTUALLY IS a highly refined method for reading the cues of impending physical assault. Southnarc did the pioneering work on it and it increases survivability exponentially....but I guess you are just not familiar with his work in that field? The point I am making or trying to is that most people just do not know what they do not know. But once they are shown what to look for they can predict with great regularity what someone is about to do.They can then "skip ahead" and make decisions at a much faster rate than they previously could because they can see the train wreck DEVELOPING, and do not have to wait until the train hits them to realize bad things are happening. Most people are only aware AFTER the train hits them or just as it does. But if you know what to look for, you see it in plenty of time to get off the track.

.308 military style rifle like HK91 M1A FNFAL will shoot accurately far off, actually DO SOMETHING when it gets there, and shoot THROUGH the most stuff. Of course it is also the heaviest and ammo is pricey right now and the guns are not cheap either.... .223 /5.56 is lightweight, accurate, you can carry a bunch of ammo. You can take deer sized game with .223 -not ideal but doable- and they work pretty well on people when you do not have to shoot through stuff to hit them. It will shoot accurately at distance, but it loses steam fast after 300 yards. ARs are everywhere..... 7.62 x39 will shoot through stuff that .223 still thinks is cover. It will take deer easily -how many have taken deer with a 30/30? it is essentially the same thing. The AK platform is as reliable as anything made and more so than most things. It is also very robust and not nearly as maintenance sensitive as the AR or other rifles mentioned above. BUT it is realisticly a 200 yard and closer gun due to coarse sights. But how many shots do you REALLY see yourself taking past 200? I agree with Rabbi (yes I really said that) on the SKS. It is cheap, reliable and has all the benefits of the 7.62x39 cartridge. Hard to beat the SKS on a budget. A lever gun or a pump might beok too, but they would be distant choices behind a good quality military style semi auto. But you really cannot compare military use to civilian use. We kill people with bombs and belt fed guns not individual riflemen generally speaking in military combat. Yes we have done OK with 5.56 rifles, but that is such a small reason of why we win. We win because we have the best use of combined arms in the world. We have planes and helicopters and armor and ships and satellites and missiles and best trained and equipped (night vision,and other gear) ground troops all WORKING TOGETHER to accomlish victory. We darn sure do not win just because of the M16.......Our command and control orchestrate all these together better than anyone else and THAT is why we do so well.

If ALL you get in your basic class is marksmanship, then I might agree. But if all you get in your basic defensive pistol class is marksmanship training, I'd ask for my money back.....Again , fights do not look like matches.So why would you train to fight like you train to shoot a match? Why do we still assume that marksmanship alone is what wins fights? Because the majority of folks just do not test this stuff in force on force.The shooting is the LAST 10% of the problem but most think spending 90% of their time on the last 10% is good way to spend their time........seems a little backward to me. Again, if ALL you get in a basic class is how to operate a gun, I'd want a refund. And no one is suggesting a 2 day class (or a 5 day for that matter) with NO continuing practice is enough to maintain better than mediocre skill with a pistol. The value of the 2 day class is it covers a good amount of material that the student can take home and work on withoout costing them a week of their time or $2000 of their money. The key to getting something out of the training is the training being realistic, relevant and RECENT. Ten billion rounds one weekend and no further practice is not nearly as effective at making you better as 50 rounds every week or even as much as dry fire every other day...... but again, this is just going to help with accuracy (the last 10%), not decision making.And bad decision making is what gets people killed or crippled. A truly good class will also help you recognize things faster and make better decisions.If it doesn't ,then all it does is teach you to shoot. The Boy Scouts can teach you how to shoot.........

Statistics are useful only when you have ALL the statistics. When Armed Citizen starts reporting people that got killed and crippled resisting then I'll be more amenable to using their data to "PROVE" that. So you can't refute the argument so you come back with a cute retort about listening to a former bouncer....nice. And as far as listening to a former bouncer, I at least have a clue as to what a REAL fight looks like. More than can be said for a lot of people. I guess it might mean more to you if I had mentioned that I have spent the last decade working in the shooting industry. Some people think that is a big deal. It isn't, and in no way relevant to self defense, but people that don't know any better are impressed by it....you'd be surprised at how little some folks that work in gunstores know. Knowing about a gun- a mechanical object- and knowing about the dynamics of interpersonal confrontation are 2 differnt things....... Oh yeah, don't you work in a gunstore? And I have actually used a gun to defend myself. Again, more than can be said for a lot of people. I mention the IDPA thing because I know how to shoot at least fairly well...and I know there is A LOT more to personal defense than what goes on at a match....much more than acquiring a sight picture and working a trigger. I've never been or heard of anyone being confronted by stationary cardboard on the street...... People do get killed everyday.A good many of those would probably be better off if they had ever seen a realistic situation in a training environment BEFORE they had to deal with it for real.But I guess your selected statistics don't really show that so it must not be true. Try the Uniform Crime Report from tha FBI sometime. Those statistics are not quite as pretty......

That is why I advocate 2 day basic level classes followed up with another more advanced class 6 months to a year later so that the student has time to take the material home and actually PRACTICE it. There IS only so much you can get accomplished in 2 days without wearing them out or giving them so much they don't really "get" any of it. In fact I think that 3 days or more is probably too much for a beginning class unless it is a LOT of repetition of a just small group of core skills. Otherwise you end up trying to pour a gallon of milk in a shot glass. It will only hold so much......

The problem though is that The Armed Citizen only reports the WINS not the LOSSES. I have this same discussion about once a year with a guy who says that because X number of people in the NRA magazine were OK with a 5 shot J frame tucked away in their nightstand that you don't really ever even need to practice shooting or even carry a gun in public since most stuff seems to happen at home....... Oddly enough though this guy shells out big money to travel and train every year...why ? So he will be able to handle whatever comes his way........go figure. Problem is the OVERWHELMINGLY VAST MAJORITY of those NRA Armed citizen stories are about break ins where the citizen has time to retrieve a gun, not about unequal initiative street assault where the bad guy OR GUYS are on you with little prior warning..... THOSE are generally where the good guy (or at least the less bad of the two bad guys) gets killed or really messed up. THOSE are NEVER gonna be in the NRA armed citizen because they do not fit the agenda of the column. Lets be honest the purpose of the column is to show everyday folks prevailing against bad guys. Not to give a balanced view. That would be like expecting the Brady Campaign to End Handgun Violence to publish stories where armed citizens make a difference...common sense here guys.To hear the Armed Citizen tell it no one has EVER been killed or crippled by the BG. Does ANYONE really believe that? Go to a big city (Nashville Memphis Atlanta ) ER on a weekend in the summer look at assualt victims and you tell me who could've used some training........ If you want to base your world view on best case scenarios fine. But I prefer to explore the LIKELY scenarios that do not involve me being at home behind cover with prior warning. So I guess I'm just a freak for wanting to be as well prepared as I can be for the likely scenarios I might face. Aggressive panhandlers being priority #1. Oh, but I guess there is no need for learning how to deal with that since it is so unlikely that someone of unknown intention might approach you on the street? Or carjacking...guess that has NEVER happened to anyone?....or being a patron in a store when a robbery takes place...guess that has NEVER happened? No, frankly it is just so much easier to sit back and say "well the armed citizen says all I need is a J frame and no training so by goodness I'm not gonna waste my time learning any of that "ninja stuff" like drawing from concealment or weapon retention or any skills that might help me survive a knife attack long enough to make space and get my gun into play...you know, because no one ever gets stabbed....." It is always easier to not test yourself. To never FAIL. To never step up and see what you are capable of. To never move the bar higher, and become more dangerous to them than they are to you. That requires work, time, and coin. I'm not saying that unless you are an MMA trained, IPSC Grandmaster, powerlifter, blade master with the situational awareness of a CIA field operative that you are gonna die. I'm saying that the better prepared you are the less likely you are to fall victim to criminal assault...how do you prepare? Training. The biggest benefit that training may give however is CONFIDENCE. And the confident you are the more it shows and that is a good way to get deselected by the bad guys. They work on cost analysis. If you look like you would be a problem they will in all likelihood pass you by. Street crime does not have a very good health benefit plan. They want to get paid, not get hurt or killed or have to go to the hospital and explain how they got the gunshot wound.... Like dogs, bad guys sense fear and sense confidence. Like dogs they'll pounce on the fearful and leave the confident alone. How do you get this confidence? Train to a level that you feel is appropriate for your situation. But do not be fooled. If there is a fight it will be what it will be, not what your preconceived notions were. If you think you don't need to know how to use your hands because you have a gun I sincerely hope you never find yourself in a wrestling match over your gun......If you think there will never be a chance of you having to deal with 2 guys at one time I hope you are right. Me, I'd rather know a little about how to deal with ALL the likely possibilities than to bluster about there being no need to know how to do certain things and then secretly worry about running into that situation later. Much easier if I see that situation developing to say "Yep I've seen THIS before and I access the program that is needed to solve that problem...but hey I guess training is really just a waste of time and money...... Hey what do i know. I'm just a master level IDPA shooter, former bar bouncer, weight lifter who has defended himself from criminal assault.......I'm sure you are right. The NRA armed citizen has a lot more to teach you than any professional instructor.......

I have a somewhat dissenting opinion to a lot of folks. I can take untrained folks and get very good shooting results in a two day class with 400-500 rounds. In fact I think (my opinion) that beginners really need more work on their grip, draw stroke (FROM CONCEALMENT....HOW THEY ACTUALLY CARRY IT!) and indexing the gun on target than they do on shooting a bunch of rounds.That can all be accomplished dry. They can shoot more later on on their own time. That is called PRACTICE. I'm there to teach them how to do it efficiently and effectively. There is more to shooting well than just making noise. And there is A LOT more to self defense than just shooting.....As Sonny Puzikas says "90% of people spend 90% of their time working on the LAST 10% of the solution". High round count does not in any way guarantee good results. It might even be counter productive in basic classes.My basic class runs about 400 rounds and I have yet to have anyone tell me they didn't improve any. In fact I regularly take folks who have trouble hitting a 3.5" circle at 5 yards at the beginning of day 1 and have them hitting a 9"x16"(human torso sized) target at 70 yards with regularity on day 2..... How? I use a very refined method to teach the presentation from the holster and sight picture and trigger press and I have them make every round count. I teach them how to see what they need to see. I teach them how to aim the pistol without having to focus on seeing it (which becomes important when people start moving) and how to let their body do what their body WANTS to do under stress and just incorporate the gun into that, not fight nature. With only 2 days, there is a lot that NEEDS to be covered in depth that is more than shooting.It is kind of hard to discuss how to deal with aggressive panhandlers while we are shooting..... If we are trying to teach a class on improving your match times... fine. Lets crank up the round count because split times matter over the course of 10 stages. But in a fight in the parking lot that will last 3.5 to 5 seconds, split times don't really matter .There is more at play than just shooting fast strings of fire (and more at stake) in a fight and I teach people for that event, not for IDPA or IPSC (even though I can certainly teach that too). In fact when I look at perspective classes to go take on my own, I view high round count as a NEGATIVE not a positive thing. "Why do they need THAT many rounds to cover what they are teaching" is kind of how I look at it. I say keep the high round count to classes where you are just teaching people to run the gun faster, not for when they are beginning because it serves to make them tired and lose concentration more than give any real marksmanship benefits. Again, my opinion.

House bill 89 passed in Ga allowing carry in places that serve alcahol, state parks, wildlife management areas, and on mass transit- MARTA. The bill is here....http://www.legis.state.ga.us/legis/2007_08/fulltext/hb89.htm So now we need to hold our folks feet to the fire. If Ga can get this passed why the %#^$ can we not ? I know , trick question, Jimmy Naifeh is why. But this passing in Ga can be used to put more pressure to get something done. Oh well at least I can carry where they serve alcahol in Georgia now......

Am I the only one here who got the joke? The humor in Packingmama's post was that it seemed like some in this thread were willing to shoot EACH OTHER for stealing each other's material.....I thought it was freakin' hilarious. Couple of thoughts. If someone PAYS to take your class and then takes that material and uses it .....you SOLD IT TO THEM so quit whining. If you don't want people cooking with your bacon quit selling your bacon. If you sell someone a pound of bacon you no longer have any say over whether they use it for seasoning beans or whether they use it to make breakfast or a BLT. It is now THEIR bacon! So if you don't want people to put it in their beans...DO NOT SELL IT. On the other hand the party who uses the material really does bear some responsibility to credit where he got it if he knows where it came from. That is just the right thing to do. VERY few instructors really come up with anything truly outside the box that has not been done before. One exception is Southnarc whose material on managing unknown contacts is truly unique. But the rest of us are not inventing anything that no one else has ever thought of, after all there are only so many ways to do things when you have 2 arms and 2 legs. Even the stuff I came up with that was adopted for Suarez International's AK Program is not anything so original that I can say for sure that AK users SOMEWHERE else have not used at some time. It is just too simple for someone NOT to have used it before. But I have never seen anyone write about it or heard anyone use it (The specific material I'm referring to is a sighting method and a 2 point sling transition method). But am I going to get all pissed off if someone else starts teaching it? No. But if you got it from me or from the SI AK class,I just prefer you mention where you picked it up....that is the only RIGHT thing to do. Most of us are honestly either teaching someone else's material, or teaching our take on someone else's material. A FEW are trying to mix different schools of thought and make things "fit together" taking the various schools of thought and working them into a cohesive program. Then there is an even more limited few who are truly innovating and doing something new. But even then they are really basing their new stuff on old stuff or on other disciplines (stick, knife, empty hands) . So unless you can show where NO ONE was doing it before you were, then you have a hard time proving any kind of intellectual property. And even if you do hold the deed to the intellectual property, once you let a student PAY you for it , they now own a piece of it too.....So the only sure way to keep your material proprietary is to NOT teach it..... Now, back to shooting people for stealing stuff......EVERY class I teach someone says"what? I can't shoot someone who is in my yard stealing my car?" There is an OBVIOUS difference in property crime and physical assault. Again, if the REASONABLE person believed they were in immediate danger of grave bodily injury or death, then the statute is clear. Fire away. The problem is that if they are not posing an imminent threat TO YOU or a 3rd person then you CAN NOT shoot them for committing a crime other than a violent felony..... Now the gray area comes when you grab your roscoe and run out the door to confront them as they lift your hubcaps. Were you in danger? No. Did YOU actually cause the confrontation? A jury MIGHT say that you did so we need to be very careful about leaving the safety of our house to confront someone. You can always call the cops. Now, if they start to burn down your house or shoot at you through the windows or walls, then yes you are in danger. But until then....you really need to keep that temper under control and call the cops. You may not like this, but it is reality.

My random observations over the course of 10 years...... The OVERWHELMING majority of folks only want the BARE MINIMUM. Many view the class as an inconvenience rather than an opportunity to learn something that might actually save their life. You cannot convert those folks. You will only get frustrated. Most folks just are not interestied in getting continuing training. VERY few even ask about where to go to get further training. So if you try to be a crusader and make competent gunmen out of them in a 1 day class, that leads to immense frustration on your part and more material than they can digest on their part. I add some material dealing with awareness and people who approach you on the street, but I keep to the state syllabus as much as possible. If they want further training I welcome it with open arms, but few even ask, even after I tell them this class is a BARE MINIMUM and that further training is a really good idea since the class covers so little. Folks who have never been in a dangerous situation seem to be the least motivated. Those who have seem to be the most motivated....hmmm....imagine that.... Most folks who are "self taught" really do need the marksmanship training even if it is a bit remedial for the good shooters. A good many NEED remedial training. I have lost count of folks who show up trying to use the "cup and saucer " grip, or folks gripping the gun with their thumb behind the slide -(usually a self solving problem), and folks who are obviously cross dominant eyed who are shooting with the wrong master eye. While you might argue that you can get away with this in a defensive shooting I say knowing how to do it RIGHT solves a lot of problems. And making them do it correctly takes less time than letting them figure out on their own why their pet method they have "always used" is not getting good results. It is amazing how the proper grip, trigger control , sight focus and forward leaning upper body posture makes shooting down right simple..... There is no point in spending a lot of time on reloads when no matter how much you might want them to, 95+% are NOT going to carry spare ammo anyways. I'd say that over half will rarely even carry the gun anyway. We are teaching "normal folks" not gunfighters. Not being cynical here or sarcastic just being realistic. The video has issues. The knife stuff in the video is just not right in the real world. If you wait for someone to approach you, pull the knife and tell you they are going to gut you , then it is likely you will not be able to keep from getting stabbed. There are some other issues and we discuss them after they view the video. I show another vid demonstrating the Tueller drill so they can see for themselves just how fast distance gets covered..... Obviously we don't shoot the guy on the side of the road whittling a stick, but we also do not need to wait until a knife wielding assailant has closed to within touching distance before we take any action....There are a few other issues with the video , and I discuss those also. Most people for some reason think you cannot carry a gun in a bank...... Most people think you SHOULD be able to shoot people who are stealing stuff..... It is EXTREMELY gratifying to see people who are very nervous about passing the shooting part shoot a fist sized group just by doing it the way we teach it. The confidence they gain from that is hard to put a price on... Again, these are just random observations..

I'm thinking they are describing just the plain old "fire one, grab a new one, insert into the mag tube, carry on" type of reload. It is nothing a 6 year old child couldn't do dexterity wise. You keep the gun shouldered , and just pull a shell either out of the side saddle (if so equipped) or out of your pouch or pocket and push it into the tube. Very common in match shooting and taught in virtually every "combat" shotgun oriented class I am aware of. Shotguns don't hold much ammo. Makes sense to keep 'em topped off......

Yeah, there is something to be said for that "Front sight, PRESS" stuff.

The combined match scores are posted at http://www.rangemaster.com/ . You might recognize some of the names.

I spent this past weekend working/attending/presenting at the Rangemaster Tactical Conference. The event is held at the Memphis Police Training facility-which is freakin' NICE. This is one of the PREMIERE training events in the country every year and all serious gunmen really should attend at least once. Being on the staff, I RO'd the indoor stages of the match from 7Am to noon on Saturday. I was able to catch Steve Moses' "Dealing with MMA trained opponents" presentation, though I was getting over the flu so I just watched and took notes( but don't worry, I'll get plenty of practice when I get together with my training partners....). Steve covered likely attacks that MMA trained opponents will try to use and submission holds they will try to employ and ways to survive the initial attack and access your knife and escape. After Steve's presentation I went to Haney Mahmoud's "Responding to Active Shooters" presentation. He covered material in respect to closing with and dealing with active shooters and the moral,legal and safety issues associated. He discussed IEDs (Improvised Explosive Devices) and the fact that they could be encountered in an active shooter scenario.The shooters at Columbine had 26 IEDs between them on their person when they were killed. Sunday morning I attended Claude Werner's "Shooting in Reaction Time" presentation on the indoor frangible range. Claude teaches at the Rogers Shooting School in Ellijay Ga. The targets used are the Rogers School targets- pneumaticly driven targets where the head rises and appears for a set amount of time and the target is engaged with the specified # of shots and then the head shot within that time frame. If you don't shoot QUICKLY you cannot make the times. After the class was over I was honored that Claude asked me to join him and Mike Benedict to "play" with the target system. We dialed the time down to 1 second and shot (or tried...) head shots from concealment at 5 yards in ONE second. I then went to Tom Givens' lecture on 7 selected shootings that his students have been involved in. Tom has had close to 50 (yes 50)student involved shootings in the last decade. Tom therefor has about the best database of real shootings involving civilians in the US. I have seen this before in classes and at NTI , but it never gets old and i get something new out of it every time. Afterwards I reported back to the indoor range to RO for a couple of hours as we got the last of the shooters run through the match course. Then it was off to the class room to do my presentation on "Dynamic Movement-Get Off the X". Afterwards the awards for the match winners were handed out and door prizes were handed out. Just as last year, it was an EXCELLENT event, a supreme success, and the greatest value in training available at $8 per instructor by the time you divide the #of trainers by the dollar amount the attendees had to pay to attend. Here is John Farnam's review of the event. 24 Feb 08 "Polite Society" Event, Memphis, TN, 2008 I just completed the 2008 PS Event in Memphis, TN. Friend and colleague, Tom Givens, puts this extravaganza on every February, and it was, as always, an enormous benefit to all who attended. As last year, the event took place at MPD's Academy. Shooting exercises consisted of three "situational" drills, two in low light, and one in normal, outdoor light. In the first one, you are compelled to engage three, armed thugs in a parking lot, using your car as cover. In the next, you are compelled to rescue your wife from armed thugs who are attempting to kidnap her. Range in both exercises was four to seven meters. Flashlight use was optional. Targets were fully-dressed mannequins that toppled when hit. Targets were visibly armed and perniciously threatening. "Non-targets " were also dressed mannequins, but plainly represented no threat. In low light, you really had to look closely! "Hit-zones" were undefined, and, for most of us, multiple hits were required to take out each target. I elected not to use my flashlight, as the situation developed so rapidly. I just moved, drew, and started fighting! A third low-light exercise required us all to fire at paper targets, but starting from supine and requiring the use of only the non-dominant hand! This was designed to simulate being wounded and down and still having to continue the fight. Range was five meters. Many of us need to practice more with one-hand shooting! Rollins on your side works much better than trying to arch your back. The outside drill required us to start seated in a car, then engage two, armed attackers out the passenger-side window. Then, the contestant had to tactically exit the vehicle, move to a brick wall, and, using it for cover, engage two more armed, thugs, the view of whom was obscured by an unarmed bystander. Again, targets and non-targets were dressed mannequins. Range was four to seven meters. The final drill was also outdoors and required each of us to shoot down a row of steel plates, strong-hand, support-hand, and free-style. Range was five and seven meters. I was armed with my Beretta PX4 (40S&W) and 140gr Cor-Bon DPX ammunition. Back-up pistol was my Rohrbaugh R9, also loaded with DPX. Pistol and ammunition ran fine. I didn't deploy my backup pistol nor Cold-Steel blades. It was an excellent training exercise, and, as with the NTI, extremely valuable, as each of us get to go into each drill cold, having little idea of what to expect. It is an priceless opportunity to test and evaluate oneself, under stress. The best way to approach it is to not think about scores/times at all, and stop worrying about what you think some evaluator wants to see you do or not do. You run each drill as realistically and tactically sound as you can, making what mistakes you will, moving on without hesitation, and charging through to the end. Great day! There were many valuable classes this year, all instructed by my personal friends and colleagues, and I did my best to attend all of them! TJ Pilline put on an excellent, live-fire Urban Rifle Class, stressing optical-offset on close targets, particularly brain-stem shots at close range. TJ is an advocate for one-point slings! John Hearne presented his excellent summary of FBI's OIS data. He reminded us that we're often too polite for our own good, and that we need to look upon VCAs as an entirely different species, as their capacity for violence and depravity is virtually unlimited. John reminded us all that frequent, stressful training is the key to victory, along with personal tenacity. I love this: "Getting shot is no big deal. Getting shot again, because you failed to take decisive action, IS a big deal!" "South-Nark" is the AKA for another of our instructor who presented an excellent hand-on Class called "Managing Unknown Contacts." We all learned how to use posture, movement, and verbalization to maintain adequate reactionary distance and how to recognize pernicious duplicity. William Aprill, best known for his excellent Retention-and-Disarms Class, this year spoke, in his capacity as a practicing psychologist, about Post-Trauma Disorder. He acquainted us with the latest information on this subject as well as treatment options. He stressed the importance of always "staying in the game," in order to avoid "fear and helplessness" that is the source of so much heartburn. Henry Mahmoud and Steve Moses did a wonderful presentation on Team Tactics. He indicated that teams are often thrown together hastily, so each of us needs to have necessary tactical gear with us always, including a serious pistol and at least one reload. Henry said that five is the maximum number for an effective tactical team. More than that, and it becomes unmanageable and dangerous. Andy Stanford talked with us about flashlights, assuring us that LED is the trend, and that conventional, xenon bulbs were on their way out. Few know as much about low-light fighting as Andy! Paul Gomez presented an interesting Class on the "Evolution of the Draw-stroke." Paul never ceases to astonish me with his vast historical knowledge! Randy Harris showed us an excellent series of videos demonstrating how to put your opponent at the maximum disadvantage through aggressive movement, the kind of movement that forces him into aggravated muzzle whip. Claude Werner, representing the Rogers School, showed us all how to run the trigger and move the muzzle onto target simultaneously. He also stressed the importance of catching the link, again, while the muzzle is moving. Claude personally demonstrated all this with his Beretta 92F. I'm going to have to drill myself on this so I can decide how much of it I'm going to steal from Claude! Skip Gochenour had another of his classic "head-scratchers" for us! Skip talked about the concept of "Honor" and "Shame" and the way the two influence our civilization. He went through the historical development of law pertaining to the use of deadly force. He pointed out that in most civilizations, particularly the "Thug-ocracies" of the Middle-East, governments insist on an monopoly on the use of force. Citizens/subjects are allowed no individual discretion. Only in the "New World" do we see individual citizens with the right to defend themselves, even with deadly force, at their own, personal command and judgement. Mike Brown, in his hands-on class, showed us all how to successfully access one's pistol while otherwise engaged in a physical fight. It can be challenging, but Mike showed us some excellent tricks. Mike Warsocki's well-organized mind took us, step-by-step, through the exigent decision-making process. Mike explains the procedure in great detail, far more detailed than I had ever thought about. Jim Yeager, as few others are qualified to, explained to us accessories that come in handy on a serious rifle, and ones that are more trouble than they' re worth. Like TJ, Jim likes a one-point sling. He is also a fan of EOTech and Aimpoint. I highly recommend the PS Event to all Operators. Not to be missed! /John

My point was that those same "scary as hell" people are the exact pool from which we will be getting people carrying IF there were no safety class to at least point them in the right direction and let them know that they don't point guns at people they are not about to shoot,teach them how to hit what they are shooting at, and that they cannot shoot people for stealing hub caps or for threatening to punch them..... The well regulated part of "well regulated militia " actually meant "trained and equipped" in the time it was written. It did not mean "limited to certain items". Just as the militia had to...(Oh No ! He's gonna say it...) TRAIN back then on a regular basis, I do not see that there is any constitutional issue with compelling people who wish to go about armed IN PUBLIC to get at least a few hours of basic safety, legal, and marksmanship training ONCE in their freakin' lifetime. . If they don't choose to carry in public then there should be no training requirement, but if they do choose to accept the right to go about armed then they should accept the responsibility to be educated. Of course we know most people now do not accept ANY personal responsibility for anything......So we either compel them to get educated or you have those "scary as hell " people running around armed in public because there was nothing making them get educated.

I'm all for everyone exercising their "God given rights" , but with that comes a commensurate amount of RESPONSIBILITY. Having shot at a greater than average number of private and public ranges I have seen people that frankly have no business going about with loaded guns until they get their head straight and figure out it is not polite to casually point loaded guns at people while you talk to them. Also having seen a hefty number of people come through the TN Handgun Carry Permit class, I can tell you FIRST HAND that if nothing else the safety lecture is CRUCIAL in preventing negligent discharges out in the world.... Again, I'm not suggesting limiting one's ability to defend themself. I'm suggesting that if they want to exercise the right they need to be grown up enough to understand , respect, and accept the responsibility of learning to handle the gun SAFELY.I'm suggesting that before they strap on their smokewagon they take the initiative and do the RIGHT THING and learn something about safely handling loaded guns in public.Problem is that a very large number would never do it unless they were forced too...... If that makes me a "gun hater" then some of you need to get a grip on reality.I have no problem working in close confines, side by side, live fire with multiple shooters firing full auto if they all have the same safety guidelines hardwired. But there are some people out there who I would be afraid to stand BEHIND if they had a single shot musket and I were wearing body armor because they are so UNSAFE. Those people (for the sake of the rest of the community) NEED a safety class to enlighten them to the concepts that we take for granted....never point the "fiery death end" at what you are not willing to destroy, keep your "booger hook" off the "bang switch" until you want it to get loud, be aware of your target and (JUST AS IMPORTANTLY) what is BEHIND it. There ARE people out there who own guns that have never even heard these safety rules before......pretty scary huh? Do you feel comfy with THEM pulling out their blaster and letting loose at someone if you and your children are on the other end of the parking lot? Honestly? These safety "rules" are REASONABLE things that prevent NEGLIGENT death , injury or property damage. By and large accidental shootings are not ACCIDENTAL discharges, they are NEGLIGENT Discharges. So I have NO PROBLEM with compelling people to have some damn sense about them and learn to responsibly handle that thing that can KILL someone. And if that makes me "anti freedom" then some of you need to wake up and discover that this is NOT some academic exercise, it is LIFE AND DEATH..... And anyone that argues that the TN permit class marksmanship qualification standard is too difficult really needs to reexamine whether they really think people who can't pass it SHOULD be carrying a gun in public or not.

I don't mean to kick anyone's pet goldfish here, but it is not 1917 any more and most autos made by QUALITY manufacturers are as reliable as any revolver and MORE robust. Revolvers are still 19th century technology. It is a fairly complex "watch" like mechanism that dirt and unburnt powder can bind the mechanism. They can and do go out of time and have to have the cylinder retimed. I know, I've had it happen. I've also had one bind up to the point it had to have a wooden mallet beat the cylinder open. These were not rusty old 1903 Smiths, these were a 1990s manufactured 642 (bound up cylinder) and a 1990s vintage SW625. My Glocks, Sig 226, Wilson 1911, Colt 1911 (made in 1921), nor any other auto I have ever owned has ever had any kind of catastrophic failure like this. So much for more reliable..... The "reliability issue" with revolvers comes from the early years of the 20th century when there were a bunch of new european autos (and some early american designs) becoming available and the american market was heavily entrenched with the revolver. Most of these autos were of questionable reliability especially if black powder loads -which they were not designed around-were used. The revolver however would still fire if you could pull the trigger. So the buying public came to view the revolver as more reliable. But oddly enough EVERY major army in the world would dump their wheel guns for autos by the mid 1920s. If these autos were "unreliable" does anyone really think they would have switched? For military combat where the guns are likely to get filthy and maybe be used as clubs (which can easily damage a revolver) revolvers were dumped 90 years ago! The reason we went to war in 1917 with a .45acp revolver is because Colt couldn't make enough 1911s FAST ENOUGH to arm everyone with and they already had tooling in place to make the revolver and so did Smith and Wesson. It was a matter of expedience NOT a matter of reliability! So after WWII when they began looking to improve ammo for autos -sp and hp- some things would feed well and some would not. But due to its design, a revolver could even shoot the flat full Wadcutter shaped stuff. Autos still were designed around FMJ round nose stuff and early soft and hollow point stuff did not feed as well as the FMJ did. So again we get the notion that the revolver is more "reliable" but it is not a apples to apples comparison. If I ask a 5'2 guy to dunk a basketball on a 10 foot goal in a dunk contest against a 6'10 guy is that a fair comparison of ability? Of course not. One is more well built to do that particular activity and the other is not. If I put unleaded gas in a diesel engine and try to drive cross country does the breakdown of the vehicle mean it is an unreliable vehicle? No. It means we fed it something it was not DESIGNED to use.So it is NOT that the autos were less reliable, they were less reliable with ammo that at the time was never intended to be used in those autos by their designers! So no, revolvers are not more reliable. They are a 19th century technology that in the hands of a competent revolver shooter CAN be very effective (for the first 6 shots) but they are not as robust as autos, they do not have the capacity of any decent sized auto, they are harder to shoot (neither you nor I are Jerry Miculek and I don't care WHO you are a 4lb Single action trigger is easier to get good hits with than a 10-12lb DA trigger) and they are MUCH slower to reload. Before anyone brands me a revolver hater , consider this. I won 7 consecutive Cowboy Action shooting yearly club championships between 2 clubs in SE Tn (TN Mountain Marauders in Chattanooga and Ocoee Rangers in Cleveland) in 5 years- 5 consecutive with one club and 2 consecutive with another at the same time. So I know a little about how to sling a wheel gun. And I CARRY a SW342 as my auxiliary (or "backup" if you must call it that) pocket gun ...BUT I also carry a Glock 34 in an IWB holster as my REAL gun. The SW is not carried because of any perceived reliability issue. It is carried simply because due to its size and shape it is not as obvious in my front pocket as a Glock 26 is and due to its shape I can draw it from my jeans faster than I can draw my G26. It is the derringer of the 21st century. But when I am wearing looser fitting cargo shorts I often go with the small auto.......The J frame fits a niche...but that niche is not "reliability".

Actually what they were saying is a world class shooter has a reaction time to the buzzer of about .15 of a second. So that is how far they moved the "beep" ahead of him starting his draw stroke. The "average guy" reaction time is more like .25 to .35 (or more) . So reaction time and draw is definitely different than just straight up draw speed. Someone asked what kind of accuracy you can get. Usually COM hits on targets at 2-3 yards away. Now, I can't do it that fast with a 2 handed eye level shot. I'm drawing and shooting from "retention" or "point shooting" if you must call it that. But I'm also doing it from concealment just like in the video but from under an untucked polo shirt. I'll try to post video of me doing it. I have a snippet of that in a video presentation I'm doing at the Rangemaster Tactical Conference at the end of this month in Memphis.

Gabe Suarez is going to be at my place March 27-30. During the rest of the year I teach Suarez Int. curriculum classes like Defensive Pistol Skills, Close Range Gunfighting, Defensive Rifle Skills, Defensive Shotgun Skills, Kalashnikov Gunfighting, and Interactive Gunfighting Force on Force. I also host other instructors like Sonny Puzikas and Tom Givens, and I do private lessons . The range I use is a private range just over the border from Chattanooga, 3 miles from where I 75 crosses TN into GA. Info can be found at Suarezinternational.com. I have my classes through May listed and hope to have the rest of the year up on the board in a week or so. Of course if there is anything I can help you with feel free to PM me here or email me at Cruelhandluke2000@yahoo.com

Just curious.....anyone here attending the Rangemaster Tactical Conference and Polite Society Match in Memphis Feb 23 and 24?

Now factor out the reaction time to an outside stimulus (buzzer or whatever) and you will cut .25 or so off of those times............ Try this. Place a coin on the back of your hand and hold your hand and forearm parallel to the ground. Then go for your gun. That is more a measure of your draw to shot speed, not your reaction time, and THEN draw to shot speed. Depending on your height, if you can draw and fire before the coin hits the ground that is about .15 to .10 of a second for a draw and shot. (objects fall 33.3ft/sec so 1/10 the height = 1/10th the time.) Now do it from concealment. How much slower was that? Interesting thing to play with......

That is the one Rob Pincus did? If so, he will be presenting at the Rangemaster Tactical Conference/Polite Society Match in Memphis at the end of the month.

Guys we don't live behind the Iron Curtain. I have never heard of anyone in Tn getting sued after a justifiable shooting. And the statute doesn't have anything to do with the Castle Doctrine. It has been on the books for about 10 years. If they are committing a violent felony and you kill or injure them they are SOL.

Suarez Int Classes in Chattanooga Tn March 27,28,29,30 Gabe Suarez will be in Chattanooga teaching the following classes at the end of March! March 27, 2008 High Intensity Force On Force - Part 1 Chatanooga, TN This will be a high speed, high intensity session dealing with using the pistol against knife attacks. We will work on some dynamic techniques and concepts and then drill it all at various distances in the force on force environment. Every attendee will defeat the vaunted 21 foot rule or your money back. http://www.suarezinternationalstore.com/index.asp?PageA...=VIEWPROD&ProdID=410 March 28, 2008 High Intensity Pistol (Range Work) Chattanooga, TN This high speed, high intensity session deals with live fire exercises that support our use of the CCW pistol in close range gunfighting. We will work on both sighted and point shooting stationary and while explosively moving off the x. Bring lots of ammo and an open mind. 500 Rounds Minimum. http://www.suarezinternationalstore.com/index.asp?PageA...=VIEWPROD&ProdID=411 March 29, 2008 Knife Fighting/Vehicle Gunfighting Chattanooga, TN This combination day will have us learning to fight with knives in the morning session and examining fighting in vehicles in the afternoon. We will learn both defensive and aggressive knife methods and test them in force on force with training knives. We will also learn knife application in confined areas such a vehicles. This will dovetail nicely into the vehicle gunfighting segment that will have you shooting from the inside and from around vehicles. 300 Rounds Minimum http://www.suarezinternationalstore.com/index.asp?PageA...=VIEWPROD&ProdID=412 March 30, 2008 High Intensity Force On Force - Part 2 Chattanooga, TN Today we will spend the day working on Gun versus Gun force on force. We will begin at 7 yards and progressively move in as we learn what is needed at each distance interval up to and including drawing against the drawn gun and the involvement of combatives. http://www.suarezinternationalstore.com/index.asp?PageA...=VIEWPROD&ProdID=413 Price is $200 per day or $700 for ALL 4 days. http://www.suarezinternationalstore.com/index.asp?PageA...=VIEWPROD&ProdID=399

True. I know several guys that are what some would consider "fat" (but not chronicly obese)that would be a bad guy's worst nightmare. But OBVIOUSLY the better shape you are in the better off you are...