Cruel Hand Luke

I took the class form Jim Marshall in Knoxville. He is a Monadnock certified instructor. The local training group (guys who get together to shoot, grapple, work on med skills, knife, stick, etc) had him come in and do a impact weapon cert class for us.

And if you don't blunder about with your gun visible it never becomes an issue to begin with......

The way Judge Bevill explained it in class was I can't be arrested for jaywalking (misdemeanor) unless the officer sees it while I'm doing it. He cannot arrest me after the fact when someone tells him they saw me jaywalking. Same with misdemeanor drug possession. If you have a joint in your pocket when he pulls you over the cop can arrest you because it was misdemeanor possession IN HIS PRESENCE. He cannot arrest you LATER after someone tells him you had it but you don't have it any more..... So by same logic the cop would have to witness you carrying, and not just carrying,( because if he just sees you out on the street carrying with a permit that is legal) but they'd have to witness you carrying WHERE it is illegal. And unless you are on video carrying where it is not OK to carry it is largely a matter of their word (the business) against yours UNLESS the cops see you doing it. But then again WHY is your gun visible to begin with ? Why is the business filing a complaint? That largely solves a lot of the problem here...... Again I'm NOT suggesting any individual take any course of action.And this is not legal advice. Do people get arrested everyday for stuff that gets thrown out or for stuff that the DA chooses not to file charges on? Yes. Of course. Again I'm not giving legal advice.

Read the statute. Strange but true. There is a local case about to come up where one of the "traffic enforcement cameras" took a pic and a ticket was issued. The LAWYER who got the ticket has retained an attorney and he is arguing (and correctly according to the JUDGE that taught the constitutional law class I took back in my college days) that it is invalid as an OFFICER did not witness the infraction.And to be convicted of a misdemeanor than OFFICER must witness it. A camera is NOT an officer. The city is probably gonna lose this one. The statute is what the statute is.

Just a general comment or two. As Mars said ealier, I don't want ANY attention drawn to me. If I can't sleep at night without complaining to the businesses about their policy I'm going to do it by phone and just keep it at "I'll be sure to tell everyone I come in contact with both on the street and in my classes that you don't support the right to self defense and I'll do my best to convince people to spend money with your competitors" and LEAVE IT AT THAT. If they do not have it posted properly and you choose to carry in there then just carry in there and don't make a scene about it. Concealed means concealed. Of course if you have to carry openly then that will cause problems. But you knew that to begin with. Just go about your business and not try to be a crusader. It WON'T help. And carrying where it is posted is a misdemeanor anyways. Under TN state law an officer has to WITNESS the act taking place for you to be charged with a misdemeanor. Felonies don't have to be witnessed by an officer, but misdemeanors do. So unless you carry into the police station it probably won't even be an issue. I'm not suggesting you break the law. I'm not suggesting you carry in places that you KNOW you should not be carrying. I'm suggesting if you CHOOSE to carry in places that are erroniously posted that you keep your mouths shut and keep your gear covered. Don't play school yard games and say "look at me!" "I'm carryng and you can't do anything because your sign is wrong " because all they have to do is change their sign and then you ARE breaking the law by carrying in there.Be careful with what you ask for...... Best to leave them NOT posted properly so if you ever do get CAUGHT they are not properly posted and you have a defense..... Remember the purpose of being armed is to be able to defend yourself and others. Not to act as a conversation starter where we can affect change in the gun policies of local businesses. They respect profit. They don't give a damn about 1 guy who they are gonna view as a loon who complains about their "no gun" signs. That is why Blockbuster video changed their CORPORATE policy in 1998 or so. They respected profit (and were fearing losing it). But complaining at the LOCAL level didn't affect that. I'm not saying Hy is a loon. i'm sayng that is how non gun people look at us when we make a big deal of this stuff...... Hy, I appreciate what you were trying to do. But there are OFTEN unintended consequences. Even the best of intentions can sometimes come back to bite us. That is why I don't make a scene. And also why I carry concealed.

I'm in no way (nor have I ever ) insinuated that starting a gunbattle (especially if you are not IMMEDIATELY involved in the precipitating event) was a good thing. And that is what I pass on to students. Unless it is UNAVOIDABLE (Does this person HAVE TO BE SHOT RIGHT NOW to save a life?) then it is best to just be a good witness.You have NO commission to act as a police officer. You are NOT contractually bound or compelled to act in defense of anyone. In fact you will LIKELY make a situation worse unless you do have extra training and even then nothing is a sure thing. It is hard to condense a 1 hour lecture into a snipet on a forum without losing A LOT of the nuances of the lecture. I'm not some "cowboy". I make sure the students understand there is a difference in truly being in danger of death and just being afraid of the unknown. There is a reason that cops shoot far more people that did not need to be shot than armed civilians do. Cops are PROACTIVELY going LOOKING for bad guys with limited info. That is how Amadou Diallo got killed. He matched a description of a suspected rapist and didn't comply with the plain clothes officers commands (because he didn't speak English very well), looked like he was going for a gun and they reacted as they had been trained to react to an attack..... BUT..the key here is they were LOOKING for someone and expecting a fight....He didn't approach them. He didn't initiate the confrontation. They initiated it....because they were looking for someone who had committed a crime. We as civilians are NOT questioning people suspected of committing crimes! Therefore since we are not actively seeking out people who we suspect to be armed and dangerous, in order to lay hands on them and control them and take them into custody, we are FAR less likely to be involved in a mistaken identity shooting like this. The armed citizen is REACTIVELY responding to an attack in progress that he did not initiate. The armed citizen typically has the "benefit" of the other guy invading his space and trying to kill him. I say benefit because that is not something easily mistaken. You generally have a pretty good clue as to whether dude is trying invade your personal space and kill you or not;). And the citizen is NOT trying to take people into custody. That in and of itself prevents the majority of possibility of shooting folks that don't need to be shot. Again, hard to condense a 1 hour lecture into 2 paragraphs for a forum post.

Agree. But honestly that decision can be simplified to this....."Does this person need to be shot RIGHT NOW to prevent death or grave bodily injury?" or "If I DON'T shoot this person right now will I (or another innocent party) be killed or suffer grave bodily injury?" If the answer is yes then the requirements under the state statute have been met. If the answer is no then then you do not need to shoot them. While it is ALWAYS a good idea to get good professional legal advice , we need to remember that TN is NOT CA, MA, IL,MD,or NJ. The statutes are pretty clear on when use of lethal force is justified. And TN is not exactly a bastion of liberalism where folks are hung out to dry if they defend themselves. On the contrary, there have been cases here where all gun magazine logic would say the shooter should have been indicted and they were not... Jurisdiction is a huge factor. Here in Chattanooga the DA is EXTREMELY pro self defense. And even in liberal areas like Memphis you don't hear about politically motivated persecution of folks who use their gun defensively. We don't live behind the iron curtain guys.....

It really depends on who you take the class from.

And that is why some of us harp so much on that dirty 8 letter word P-R-A-C-T-I-C-E. The better your skill is with your firearm the less likely you are to accidentally shoot the wrong person.And how do we improve that skill? Practice. They say amateurs practice until they get it right. Professionals practice until they can't get it wrong. If we are going to go about armed we really owe it to ourselves AND to society at large to be as professional as we can. I'm not suggesting everyone has the time to practice enough to be an IPSC or IDPA Master level shooter. But there is a long way between that level of skill and what I consistently see on ranges from people who go about armed. A little practice never hurt anyone. And it may save not only YOUR life but that of innocent bystanders. I know it is mundane. I know it makes us feel bad about ourselves sometimes. I know pushing our limits is not an immediate gratification kind of thing, and it feels better to sit at home and talk about our "safe queens"on the internet, but there is only one way to be a better shooter. And it is NOT to buy a better gun. I have been taken to task here in the past for proposing that people hold themselves to a higher standard of gunhandling and marksmanship if they plan to go about armed on the street. THIS is why. If you accidentally shoot a bystander your life is going to be VERY stressful for a long time. How do we not shoot bystanders? Hold ourselves to a higher standard of marksmanship and gunhandling. The life (and the money )you save may be not only your own but those of another. DISCLAIMER: If anyone reading was offended or took my characterizations of certain people I have seen 1st hand in 8 years as an instructor to be a personal attack I suggest that they feel that way because they deep down relate to those I was talking about. If you DO NOT fit that category then do not get upset. If you DO fit that category do not get upset, just get up and go seek competent instruction or at the very least buy some books and go practice on your own. Go shoot a match. Do some dry work at home. Buy an airsoft pistol and shoot some IDPA targets in the garage. All of these things help.

If it is coming down to whether you were "qualified" with the gun you were carrying then A LOT of things were screwed up with the shooting to begin with. If this were MA, CA or IL, MAYBE. But here if you are OBVIOUSLY the good guy and he is OBVIOUSLY the BG then it is not an issue. Read that to mean if you did not know the guy , did not have a house full of drugs, were not drunk or high at the time of the shooting, were not having an affair with his wife , were not in a long term argument with him, had not threatened to kill him, and you yourself were not in the commission of a violent felony then it just does not go that far. AND if the guy was in commission of a violent felony, you can't even be sued in civil court in TN. Refer to TCA 29-34-201. So unless you screwed up and shot someone who did not IMMEDIATELY need shooting this should never be an issue in TN. A lot of the fear of legal system comes from Mas Ayoob's writings. Remember guys, Mas lives in New Hampshire not Nashville. The legal climate is different here than there. I'm certainly not suggesting you can be stupid and careless and still "get out of jail free" , but unless there are unsavory skeletons in your closet the prosecutor won't have a case and will be unlikely to even bring a case against you if you are OBVIOUSLY the good guy. Remember don't go stupid places with stupid people to do stupid things and you will generally have a hard time getting into situations that are questionable. TCA 29-34-201. Injuries suffered in committing or attempting to commit felony on property of another — Recovery barred — Scope of immunity for one injuring a perpetrator of a criminal offense. — (a) Any person who is injured while committing a felony or attempting to commit a felony on the real property of another is barred from recovery of actual or punitive damages resulting from injuries, either accidentally or intentionally inflicted by the owner, lawful occupier or tenant of such property, which the person receives while committing or attempting to commit a felony. ( (1) A person who accidentally or intentionally causes property damage to or inflicts injury or death upon the perpetrator of a criminal offense is absolutely immune from civil liability for or the payment of monetary damages from such person's actions if at the time such damage, injury or death occurred: (A) The person was preventing or attempting to prevent the perpetrator from committing the offense or was apprehending the perpetrator of the offense; and ( The perpetrator was committing one (1) or more of the offenses specified in subdivisions ©(1)-(9) or was attempting to commit one (1) or more of the offenses specified in subdivision ©(10). (2) The immunity conferred by this subsection shall only apply to property damage caused to or injury or death inflicted upon a perpetrator of an enumerated offense and only under the conditions set out in this subsection. Such immunity shall not be construed to extend to property damage caused to or injury or death inflicted upon a bystander or other person who is not the perpetrator of an enumerated offense. © The offenses for which such immunity applies are: (1) Any criminal homicide; (2) Aggravated rape; (3) Kidnapping; (4) Aggravated kidnapping; (5) Especially aggravated kidnapping; (6) Especially aggravated burglary; (7) Aggravated robbery; (8) Especially aggravated robbery; (9) Carjacking; and (10) Attempt to commit first or second degree murder. [Acts 1971, ch. 177, § 1; T.C.A., §§ 23-3003, 29-34-103; Acts 1999, ch. 268, § 2.]

The simple truth is that most "1 shot stops" have more to do with psychology than physics or physiology. The wounded party simply chooses to stop. If it truly would knock them down it would knock us down. Newton's laws of physics. And how then do we explain guys taking 308 rounds to the chest from a few feet away with hard armor on and it not knocking them down? There's a video of that. Whole lot more energy there than in ANY handgun round. There is no empirical scientific data (sorry, Marshal and Sanow is not scientific research) to quantify any kind of "1 shot stop probability' . Sometimes you just get lucky. And that is why the more progressive trainers advocate shooting the assailant to the ground. If it takes 1 round ...fine. If it takes 2...fine. If it takes 4 fine. I'll shoot what there is to shoot until it is no longer a threat. This pretty much eliminates any worry over whether your caliber/load/gun is the best. Doesn't matter. Even if my chosen carry load was a 25% stopper, if I shoot you 4 times that should make it a 100% stopper (4x25=100). All pistols suck. Some just suck a tiny bit less than others. 357sig gives better hard target penentration than 40 and that is why Tx,Tn,Ri,OK,Nc,Nm,MT and De state police all use it.In fact the THP (Tennessee Hiway Patrol) shot a guy in the face with a 180 gr .40 and it didn't even penetrate the guy's soft palate....(all handgun rounds suck)......In fact Tom Givens informs me that in Memphis it takes 11 shootings with pistols to produce 1 fatality. Of the 11, 7 are treated and released, 2 are held over night for observation and sent home, 1 generally averages a 2 week stay and #11 is a fatality. When the cops arrive they ask what you shot dude with. If you say a pistol they ask which way he ran off. If you say a rifle or shotgun they say" where is the body?";) Aside from it being expensive to buy ammo for 357 sig and it being hard on guns (long term) there is nothing wrong with it. I carried one for 6 years, and I'd be willing to carry it again.

Just a natural instinct of self preservation.......... There is legal and illegal and then there is right and wrong. They are NOT always congruent. Just because something is declared legal or illegal by the whims of society at that particular moment in history, does not mean it is necessarily RIGHT if declared legal or WRONG if declared illegal. Some principles are more important than statutes.

Congrats! Glad you enjoyed the class. I also teach there at Sportsman's Supply. Mark is a great teacher and good friend.

There is only ONE permit. It is CARRY permit. You can carry open OR concealed. Hell, you can carry open AND concealed at the same time (one covered up and one not covered) if you choose to. He doesn't know what he is talking about.

Relying on the Republicans to win back the House and Senate in 2010 and repeal an HR1022 like law is wishful thinking. After all, they had the chance to repeal the 1994 Crime Law in 1996 and couldn't get that done. Had it not been for the sunset clause in the law it would still be with us. The Republican controlled congress didn't REPEAL IT in 2004 they just didn't vote to extend it. Those are 2 VERY different things.

I hope you are right....I also hope I win the lottery.....

Guys....Does anyone REALLY believe that there won't be a MAJOR piece of gun control legislation written up within the 1st 30 days of a Clinton administration if the dems control the House and Senate? The Dems will see a win in 08 as a MANDATE for their policies and drunk on power they will push for all the taxes, gun control and social programs that they can get. And unfortunately the electorate has such a short attention span that they could give the keys to the castle to Hillary. The fact that she is even CONSIDERED as a candidate with a resume like hers is just appalling. But hey, it is a free country....for now.

Article says not likely available until 2009.....wonder if who will be in the White House then will have any effect on this?.....Don't get your hopes up yet guys.

I guess I'm just a freak. I make time to exercise AND practice draw stroke, marksmanship, gunhandling, reloads, transitions, empty hands, knife and watch TV and do all the other "life stuff". And remember what happens to you is to everyone else in the world , just an anecdotal story. Bad things only happen to "other people". To everyone else in the world other than me, I AM OTHER PEOPLE.......Again if Least Common Denominator is what you are comfy with that is YOUR choice. Some of us don't choose to be LEAST COMMON . Some of us choose to be more than "barely competent".

If you lose the state lottery you are out 1 dollar . If you lose the "damn it, this gunfight didn't fit into the statistical likelihood category" lottery and you only prepared for the LIKELY civilian gunfight then you will likely lie there gurgling your own blood until everything goes black. I'd rather not spend that time thinking "Damn I wish I'd practiced more, carried more ammo, or a backup gun"...but your mileage may vary.....

I know of at least 2 CIVILIAN gunfights where the good guy ran his gun to slidelock -1 was with an 11 shot .40 the other with an 8 shot 9mm. FORTUNATELY the BG in case #1 was down and out having takien 11 hits and in case # 2 the 2 BGs (YES TWO) were both down, one taking 5 hits and the other taking 2 , the 8th rd missed as Mr Badguy #2 turned and ran. So anyone who says NEVER is just wrong. Is it LIKELY to need to empty your primary and go to a secondary? No. BUt that is cold comfort to the guy who it DOES happen to. If we just prepare for LIKELY stuff then why even carry a gun at all? For that matter why own a fire extinguisher or wear seatbelts? Personally I'd rather not LIMIT my ability to DEFEND MY LIFE. Most all the SERIOUS gun carriers I regularly interact with carry a second gun accessable to their non dominant hand. This is generally in case the primary breaks ( I know of more than one case where someone's gun was hit with a bullet), their dominant hand gets injured and they drop the primary, or they simply draw it with non dominant hand to gain some surprise advantage -IE the already palmed gun in pocket that you are able to draw without looking like you are going for a gun or shoot through a jacket pocket . I'm not suggesting you MUST carry a second gun. It just gives an extra layer of options.....

Guys there are still spots available in this class. Most people only ever work the last 10% of the solution- the marksmanship part. This class is an excellent opportunity to work the other 90% leading up to the marksmanship too. The first time someone sees someone manuevering on them or pulling a weapon does NOT need to be when it is for real. By working these skills in advance it gives you a huge leg up if it happens for real.

No fight needed. Apparently he and I actually agree.....at least according to his first post. I just thought that very odd that the exact items he didn't think relevant (load and unload which some people call reload and clear malfunctions) were in his own list too.

You know, I just looked REALLY closely at the original post in this thread. Does it not mirror my own original post? Do not the drills I posted test these exact skills that he lists as "My own list"? The 8" circle at 20 feet is pretty much the same accuracy standard of 8" at 7 yards (21 feet) in the drills I posted. Load and unload without looking at it? Tested by the drills I posted. Ability to clear a malfunction in a timely manner? In drill #1 if you can't tap rack QUICKLY you can't make the time standard. Manipulate controls under pressure? See the reloading and malfunction clearance parts of the drills. The timer provides the pressure. The drills I posted only add a tighter time frame to performing these same manipulations......maybe then the issue really wasn't the skills I listed but the time I suggested it be done in?????????? The only thing on the original list not covered in the drills is firing from retention ........Hmmmm. Interesting.......

I agree with your post too. I was just pointing out that yours was more the pre fight, not so much the gun skills. I tell everyone that guns solve a VERY narrow range of problems that usually only come into play because you were not paying attention or made A LOT of bad decisions. If you pay attention and use your feet (leave before things get to the critical point) you will likely never have to use the gun. So we are in agreement.