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Cruel Hand Luke

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Cruel Hand Luke last won the day on June 17

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About Cruel Hand Luke

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    James County TN
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    guns, knives, combatives, weightlifting, reading history, my wife
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    Shooting Sports Wholesale and Firearms Instructor

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  1. Just a quick heads up ... I will be offering the Suarez International Vehicle Gunfighting Fundamentals class on August 15th. If you have not done this class yet then this is a great opportunity to learn just what you will do and can do while fighting in and around a vehicle. It just takes a look at the evening news to see how important these skills might be very soon. Hope to see you in class! And YES you will shoot from inside your own vehicle in this class.
  2. Suarez International Vehicle Gunfighting Fundamentals August 15, 2020 Dayton, Tennessee Price : $200 Instructor: Randy Harris (Randy's BIO) Most of us spend several hours in or around motor vehicles, yet very little time training how to fight in and around them. In this class you will learn how to do just that. We will cover everything from weapon access while seated, shooting from the car, as well as using the car itself as a barrier to attack and for cover. CLASS AND RANGE DETAILS DURATION: 1 day TIME: 8:30AM to 4:30PM AMMUNITION: Approx. 200 rounds (Minimum) RANGE & GEAR REQUIREMENTS: Modern defensive pistol and a holster specifically made for that pistol and designed to be worn on the belt. Three (3) magazines and magazine pouch, a belt of the same width as the belt loops for the holster and magazine pouches, and range safety gear (eye protection, and ear protection). Also Helpful Bring spare clothing appropriate for the weather, including a hat, sunscreen, and bug repellent. Plan to bring lunch, snacks, and water (min 1 gallon per person) for the entire day unless driving to lunch is a viable option from the range location. Bring allergy medication (if needed), a chair (if you prefer), note taking supplies, and a boo boo kit (band aids, gauze pads, antiseptic wipes, antibiotic ointment and tape). You may wish to bring pads such as knee pads, elbow pads, and gloves if the class lends itself to that. RANGE: The Ridge 11534 Rhea County Hwy, Hwy 27 Dayton, TN 37321 423-605-4242 http://www.theridgeshooting.com/ For more info and to register......https://suarezinternational.com/vehicle-gunfighting-fundamentals-august-15-2020/#
  3. On Saturday July 18 we will hold our July meeting for the TN/GA/AL Regional Suarez Int Training Group! Subject : Shotgun and Pistol Skills and Drills ( and to be relevant , recent and realistic there will be a focus on multiple targets...) Instructor: Tier 1 Suarez Int Staff Instructor Randy Harris Location: Phillips/Edwards Farm 763 CR 332 Pisgah Al 35765 ( location is about 35min from where I-24 and I-27 connect in Downtown Chattanooga ) Time: 9AM - 3PM CENTRAL time Price: $80 - pay at class cash or check. What you need to bring:Pistol with at least 3pistol magazines and at least 150 rounds of ammo. Revolvers (with 3 speed loaders) are welcome if you want to party like it is 1899. Also you will need a SHOTGUN and at least 50 rounds of birdshot.
  4. Thanks for the shout out AJ. There's more to teaching than just getting an NRA certificate and advertising some classes. Those who are really SERIOUS about being an excellent instructor never stop learning and pursuing training on their own. And it seems that very often when I am pursuing training opportunities on my own that more times than not Tiffany and Aqil happen to be in the same classes or at the same events. Congrats to Aqil and Tiff and if you get a chance to train with them I strongly suggest you do it.
  5. Depends on WHERE you are in the traffic. the first thing is to call 911 if for no other reason than to get it on record what is happening. If you are the first car then keep moving if you can. I'm not talking about "drive through the crowd in Charlottesville " style, I'm talking about just rolling through slowly enough not to do any undue harm if possible. But again this depends on the mood of the crowd. People chanting and waving signs and people throwing bricks are two different things. And if someone kicks your car or hits it with a bat that is still not necessarily justification to shoot them (yet). If it is obvious that they are "out for blood" then proceed as necessary. Drive around, through or over them if need be. If that is not possible and you have the option to "safely" wait it out then that might be the best option but again, once the crowd gets violent it is a LETHAL situation and the "disparity of force" is through the roof. Respond as necessary. This is not the time for "well I only carry my gun every now and then". And if a J-frame and the 5 rounds in the cylinder is all you carry you might want to reconsider that. Is there a time to get out of the vehicle? Yes. If you are stuck in the middle of the traffic and they are setting cars on fire then you are going to have to do SOMETHING. That something might be get out and run , get out and try to help others get out of their cars (think elderly folks who might need help) or get out, grab your rifle and make things very loud. Obviously that is a last resort but I'd rather have that option and not need to use it than not have that as an option. If you have a passenger (passengers) this might change things. Who is the passenger? Your wife? Your wife and small children? Your teenage age daughters? Your SF friend who just got back from a deployment to Syria and you are coming home from the range? All of these details matter and will color what you do and frankly what you are able to do. The best place to be is NOT THERE. So if you can avoid it then avoid it, if you can drive around it, then drive around it if not and you can drive through it do that. Worst case is having to get out and solve this on foot. I was in Raymond Mississippi at the Rangemaster Master Instructor class when the widespread nationwide rioting kicked off on the night of May 28. We all were aware of the news as the class progressed from Fri-Sun. Virtually all of us were visitors to the area and would all have to make our ways home Sunday night after class. My plan was to fill the car up before I left (I could make it all the way home on 1 tank of gas) , to simply stay on the interstate if possible, check in with friends along the way for a local reports of what was going on in their areas (I drove essentially diagonally through Alabama on 59 ) and to be ready to drive around or through any problems, and keep the AUG on the front seat for any potential problems that I could not drive around or through. People think you are crazy carrying a rifle and 7 mags with you until the rioting starts. Then you are a prophet.
  6. Here's a better "play by play " of the incident...... https://americanhandgunner.com/the-ayoob-files/the-lessons-of-tim-gramins/ THE LESSONS OF TIM GRAMINS By Massad Ayoob Situation: Backup is racing to help you as you shoot it out with a heavily armed bank robber, but you’re alone for now and running low on ammo. Lesson: What’s on your person may be all you’ll have to fight with, so carry enough. Solid positions and aimed fire deliver fight-stopping hits … and knowing what you’re fighting for will make you fight harder. August 25, 2008. It’s a sunny and beautiful late afternoon in Skokie, one of the separately incorporated communities surrounding the city of Chicago, Illinois. Of Skokie Police Department’s 124 officers, about 15 are patrolling on the street during the three-to-eleven shift. Inside the Crown Vic Police Interceptor squad car of Officer Tim Gramins, the dedicated ISPERN radio — the Illinois State Police Emergency Radio Network, reserved for serious emergencies — comes to life. A bank has been robbed in nearby Northbrook. The suspect is a black male, average size, driving a white Pontiac. A witness has reported a possible plate number, from a series tracked to the city of Chicago. This puts Skokie in between. SPD units proceed to the Edens Expressway, I-94 South, hoping to interdict. Two Skokie units pull over a man and vehicle fitting the description but quickly determine he’s not the suspect they’re looking for. It is then Gramins spots a white Grand Prix, with a lone driver who fits the description. They make eye contact with each other, and Gramins recognizes an expression he has seen many times. He calls it “the ‘Oh, boy, here’s the police’ look.” The man floors his accelerator with a sudden lane change, and the chase is on. In Pursuit Hitting his lights and siren, Gramins radios in his situation. He knows other units will be responding, but has no way to determine how soon backup will catch up with him, particularly in late rush hour traffic. The suspect veers his getaway car across three lanes of traffic to hit the Touhy Avenue exit east, and then bangs a right onto Skokie Boulevard. In the powerful CVPI, Gramins expertly remains on his tail. The chase swerves onto Estes Street after a block, through the intersection of Keating, then right on Kilpatrick. And then, the fugitive springs the trap. Ambush! Here, in a quiet suburban neighborhood right out of a Leave It To Beaver rerun, Gramins sees his quarry slam on his brakes and come to an abrupt stop in the street. Action beats reaction: Gramins responds quickly but by the time his squad car has stopped it is only 15 feet behind the fugitive’s vehicle. The white car’s door pops open and out comes the suspect. Gramins sees a silver-colored auto pistol in the man’s hand as it rises over the steering wheel, coming out the door, and swinging toward him. As this is happening, training and practice send Gramins’ left hand across his torso to swiftly release his seat belt, and his right hand to unholster his GLOCK 21 service pistol. But Ray Maddox, a 37-year-old Gangster Disciple gang member who has sworn to kill the next cop who stops him rather than go back behind bars, gets the first shots off. Bam, bam, bam, bam! Gramins can hear and even count all four of them, can see Maddox running toward him firing one-handed. Now, though, the cop’s own gun is up in both hands and he fires right through the windshield, indexed on his target, tracking the gunman as he approaches the patrol car door, still shooting. Incredibly — perhaps, for Gramins, even miraculously — both men now run out of ammunition and go simultaneously to slidelock. Second Magazine Both combatants react instantly to the change in the situation. Maddox spins around and runs back to the Pontiac. Gramins explodes out the driver’s door of the squad car, seeking to escape the trap his vehicle has become, and runs between the cars to the right. He’s reloading on the run, ejecting the spent magazine, slapping in a fresh one, and closing the slide. At approximately this time in the gun battle, he is able to radio in: the suspect is out of his vehicle, shots have been fired and he (Gramins) needs help. The gunfire has captured the attention of the residents on this quiet street. A 12-year-old boy skateboarding on the sidewalk runs into his house and tells his parents, “There’s a police officer in the street being shot at, call 9-1-1!” Gramins will later tell American Handgunner, the boy is “the bravest kid I’ve ever known.” Gramins can hear the boy’s dad yelling to him like a cheering section, “Get him! Shoot him!” In the heat of the moment, Gramins has time to take some comfort in this. Reloaded, he charges the suspect, now on the other side of the vehicles. The officer fires as he goes. He will tell me later, “He (was moving) back toward my car. I don’t think he knew I was off to his left. I charged right at him, and ended up three feet away. I was shooting one-handed when I got close. As I ran toward him firing, I saw no effect.” Third Magazine Seeing his GLOCK at slide lock again, Gramins sprints to an angle where he can get his patrol car between himself and the gunman, who is still shooting at him but with a different pistol. Again the cop is reloading on the run, demoralized his gunfire has done nothing to stop his deadly attacker, and acutely aware he’s on his last magazine. Gramins is now to the right of their two cars, and he sees Maddox is now to the left of his patrol car, using it for cover and crouching down low. An intensively trained SWAT team leader, Gramins tries to use the technique LAPD SWAT employed to successfully neutralize the machinegun-armed suspect Matasureanu in the infamous North Hollywood bank robbery shootout of 1997: he points rather than aims his G21 and fires as he moves, trying to ricochet his bullets under the car and into Maddox’s legs to bring him down. The angle isn’t right, though, and he sees his bullets hitting his own car and front right tire. Time to change the plan, he realizes. Finale Gramins sees a tree between the sidewalk and the cars in the street. He dives prone behind it, and — trained on the precision rifle as a SWAT cop — realizes he now has the best cover and the most solid shooting position he has had since the gunfight began. Maddox has been popping up and shooting at him like a jack-in-the-box and then crouching deep, watching Gramins from under the car. The cop sees Maddox looking at him now from under the police car. Carefully, consciously focusing hard on his front sight, Gramins follows legendary Border Patrol shootist Bill Jordan’s advice (“Take your time, quick!”) and squeezes off three rapid but still carefully-aimed shots, holding on the would-be cop-killer’s head. On the third, Maddox collapses face down. He is no longer shooting. A large pool of blood begins to spread outward from the gunman’s head. Gramins keeps him covered. About a minute later, the first responding officers, Detective (now Sergeant) Barnes and Detective Mendez, arrive. Both are fellow SWAT team members. Gramins feels a sense of relief as the backups kick the downed antagonist’s gun out of his reach, and handcuff him. It’s over. Reconstruction will show from the first shot of the gunfight to the last, 56 seconds have elapsed. During this time 54 pistol shots have been fired, 33 from Gramins’ GLOCK .45, and 21 by Maddox from two pistols. Wound Assessment Raymond Maddox did not survive. Autopsy showed he had been hit by 17 of Gramins’ 230-gr. Speer Gold Dot .45 hollowpoints. Some had hit extremities, including upper limbs as the officer’s bullets tracked up the gunman’s arms while he was firing at the cop. But Maddox had also been hit in one kidney, both lungs … and the heart. All three of Gramins’ last carefully braced, precisely aimed shots had indeed hit the head, but two had smashed into his face and only the last had pierced the brain and ended the fight. Gramins did not emerge entirely unscathed. He caught a bullet fragment in one shin, and bullets going through the glass of the car had sent fragments into his face. He also suffered a significant hearing loss in his left ear, most likely due to firing 13 rounds from his .45 from inside the closed patrol car. He, at the hospital in a room adjacent to where the medicos were trying to save Maddox’s life, also had to hear a doctor angrily cry, “Why did the cop have to shoot him so many times?” If only the physician had known … The shooting death of Raymond Maddox at the hands of Officer Timothy Gramins was ruled a justifiable homicide. No lawsuit was filed. Gramins received multiple awards for his heroism in the encounter and was later promoted to sergeant. Weapon Assessment Both the would-be cop-killer and the officer who neutralized him were heavily armed. They had access to seven loaded firearms between them. Gramins deployed only one; Maddox used two. Maddox opened fire with a stainless steel 9mm auto which Gramins first thought looked like a Taurus copy of a Beretta, but turned out to be a 16-shot S&W Model 5906. It was recovered, empty, from the front seat of Maddox’s Pontiac, its last spent casing stovepiped where Maddox had dumped it as he grabbed his second weapon. It was a Bersa .380 pistol. The .380 was apparently hit and, unknown to the cop, rendered inoperable by one of Gramins’ .45 rounds near the end of the gunfight. Also in the front seat of the gunman’s car was an SKS semiautomatic rifle, fully loaded with a 30-rd. magazine, and in a box. At least one analyst has suggested Gramins’ charging toward Maddox while emptying the second magazine in his GLOCK kept the gunman from accessing the high-powered semiautomatic rifle. Gramins was told later Maddox’s weapons were tied to four homicides in the city of Chicago. Gramins had been carrying his primary sidearm, the 13+1 capacity GLOCK 21, with only 12 rounds per mag because he had found with his magazines, it was sometimes difficult to positively seat them loaded all the way up if the slide was forward. He had the two spare magazines on his duty belt, and also a 9mm subcompact GLOCK 26 backup gun in a holster attached to the Second Chance ballistic vest under his uniform shirt. A Remington 870 pump shotgun loaded with five 12-gauge slugs was racked above him inside the patrol car, and as a SWAT officer, he had an AR-15 in the trunk with several 30-rd. magazines. Like his opponent, he was never able to deploy any of the heavy artillery. Lessons There are many lessons to be learned from Tim Gramins’ incident, some more obvious than others. Carry enough ammunition to finish a worst case scenario fight. After this event, which has been widely publicized among law enforcement, Tim Gramins put his .45 in his gun safe and went with a 9mm. He told me, “We are allowed to pick our weapon. GLOCK, S&W, Beretta and SIG are authorized, and we have our choice of 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP, all with department issue Gold Dot ammunition.” His duty pistol is now the GLOCK 17, loaded to full capacity with 17+1 rounds of 124-gr. +P 9mm, backed up by 11 rounds of the same in his GLOCK 26, which of course can feed G17 magazines. A slim-line Safariland triple magazine pouch carries three more 17-rd. mags in uniform, and he carries two 33-rd. 9mm magazines behind the trauma shield of his ballistic vest. This adds up to 146 rounds on tap. A widely-circulated police article by our mutual friend Charles Remsberg made Tim famous in cop circles as the policeman who carries almost 150 rounds of ammo on his person. “I can carry a hundred rounds more ammo, and it only weighs a couple of pounds,” Gramins told American Handgunner. “Round count seems to be skyrocketing in police gun battles, police running out of ammunition. I don’t want to be in such position. I came close to it, with only four rounds left in my GLOCK 21.” The dynamic movement required to escape the kill zone kept Gramins from accessing either the shotgun in the squad car’s cockpit or the AR-15 in its trunk. One lesson this taught him: what you have on your person may be all you have to fight with once a fight goes mobile. Aggressive humans can soak up multiple lethal wounds and still continue homicidal action for surprising periods of time. People have taken multiple, massive wounds even from high powered rifles and shotguns, and stayed in the fight. Contrary to popular belief, a heart shot like the one Maddox sustained well before Gramins’ brain shot killed him does not necessarily guarantee the hoped-for “instant one-shot stop.” The medical journals devoted to treatment of trauma show multiple survivors of gunshot wounds to the heart, and forensic pathologists have recorded numerous cases of people who continued conscious, purposeful, sometimes successfully homicidal actions after being shot in the heart. Even if cardiac function is completely shut down, the recipient of the wound has up to 15 or 16 seconds of action left before blood pressure drops below the level it will no longer sustain consciousness, and not all wounds of the heart cause total shutdown. This appears to have been the case with Raymond Maddox in this shooting, who by the way had a “clean toxicology screen,” which showed no alcohol or drugs on board. Forensic pathologists tell us there is no post-mortem artifact for adrenalin dump, and even if there was, its effect on the given person experiencing it cannot be precisely predicted. This shooting appears to be a classic example. Mortal wounds are not necessarily instantly fatal. The study of gunfights is replete with cases of “men who were dead, but didn’t know it yet.” It was not possible to reconstruct exactly when Maddox took the cardiac hit, but it is absolutely possible he was up and running for almost a minute despite a .45 caliber gunshot wound to the heart before the final bullet to the brain short-circuited his central nervous system and ended the encounter. Training is critical! As a SWAT cop prior to this shooting, Tim had extensive experience shooting through barriers such as windshield glass, from both sides, and this stood him in good stead in the opening of the gunfight when he essentially “broke the ambush” by returning fire through the windshield from the driver’s seat. Extensive Simunitions-based “force on force” role-play had prepared him as best as possible for shooting a murderous criminal who was shooting at him. Know what you’re fighting for! The day of this shooting was the eighth birthday of Tim Gramins’ son. Prior to hearing the emergency call over ISPERN, Tim had been pondering when he could take some break time to buy his son the Star Wars game he wanted for his birthday. Throughout the gunfight, Tim was aware of his need to survive for his son and for the rest of his family. He credits this determination for seeing him through the deadly gun battle. The very term “gunfight” is really a misnomer: the guns don’t fight, the people do, and those who know what they’re fighting for have a powerful psychological advantage. Finally, the lost lesson of this incident seems to be the importance of aimed fire. At the end, from a solid prone position where Tim had his hardest “front sight focus” of the fight, was when three rapid shots to the head all struck the intended target, the last one “shutting off the computer” and bringing the death battle to a decisive close on the side of The Good Guy. The author wishes to thank Sergeant Tim Gramins and the trainers of the Skokie Police Department for the outcome of this shooting, and fellow police writers Chuck Remsberg and Dave Scoville for first spreading the valuable lessons of this life-or-death battle to the law enforcement community.
  7. This shooting was from back in 2008 and I have referenced it a few time in class. I prefer to look at the Gramins shootout https://www.policeone.com/officer-shootings/articles/why-one-cop-carries-145-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job-clGBbLYpnqqHxwMq/ as another instance of sometimes the bad guy is not a candy ass pansy who will run at the sight of your gun but sometimes will be a "card carrying bad ass" who you will have to disassemble internally to stop him. The folks who say that you don't NEED to be able to shoot well and that "any hit anywhere on him will probably stop him" should see from this that if Gramins were not a good enough shooter to score THREE head shots that he might not have survived. If people want to fault his marksmanship they need to remember that he fired the initial 13 rounds through the windshield while he was actively being shot at and some other misses came from when he was trying to skip rounds under the car at his assailant. I think his marksmanship was just fine based on the 3 head shots he scored once he was able to get out of the vehicle, get behind cover and get a good sight picture. And we need to remember that when some of us preach the need for marksmanship better than "minute of felon" this is why. The better you can shoot the better you can shoot no matter the circumstance. And when there is a degradation of ability due to stress you are still performing at a higher level than the less skilled shooter. If you start at the top of the mountain and fall 25% of the way down you are still 75% up the mountain. When you start at 25% of the way up and fall 25% down you are in a crumpled heap at the bottom of the mountain.
  8. On Saturday JUNE 27 we will hold our June meeting for the TN/GA/AL Regional Suarez Int Training Group ! NEW FOLKS ARE ALWAYS WELCOME ! For those in Knoxville or anywhere north of Chattanooga this will be closer for you than the Ga or AL locations. Subject : Rifle and Pistol Skills and Drills Instructor: Tier 1 Suarez Int Staff Instructor Randy Harris Location: The Ridge 11534 Rhea County Hwy (HWY 27) Dayton TN 37321 (phone #423 605 4242) From downtown Chattanooga it is just straight up hwy 27 through Dayton and look for a big orange Glock on top of a mailbox on the right. It is approximately 2 miles north from the Rhea County Medical Center. Time: 9AM EASTERN time - 3PM EASTERN time Price: $80 - pay at class cash or check. What you need to bring: Pistol with at least 3 pistol magazines and at least 150 rounds of ammo. Revolvers (with 3 speed loaders) are welcome if you want to party like it is 1899. Also you will need a RIFLE with at least 3 rifle magazines, a way to carry the 2 spare rifle mags on your person and bring at least 100 rounds of ammo for the rifle. Hope to see you there!!!
  9. On Saturday JUNE 27 we will hold our June meeting for the TN/GA/AL Regional Suarez Int Training Group ! NEW FOLKS ARE ALWAYS WELCOME ! For those in Knoxville or anywhere north of Chattanooga this will be closer for you than the Ga or AL locations. Subject : Rifle and Pistol Skills and Drills Instructor: Tier 1 Suarez Int Staff Instructor Randy Harris Location: The Ridge 11534 Rhea County Hwy (HWY 27) Dayton TN 37321 (phone #423 605 4242) From downtown Chattanooga it is just straight up hwy 27 through Dayton and look for a big orange Glock on top of a mailbox on the right. It is approximately 2 miles north from the Rhea County Medical Center. Time: 9AM EASTERN time - 3PM EASTERN time Price: $80 - pay at class cash or check. What you need to bring: Pistol with at least 3 pistol magazines and at least 150 rounds of ammo. Revolvers (with 3 speed loaders) are welcome if you want to party like it is 1899. Also you will need a RIFLE with at least 3 rifle magazines, a way to carry the 2 spare rifle mags on your person and bring at least 100 rounds of ammo for the rifle. Hope to see you there!!!
  10. Upon further review I think I might have misread the intent of the OP's friend's question.... So this question to Luke9511 , WHY exactly does your friend suggest they aim for arms legs and head? I apparently missed the head part and that does kind of change the dynamic. If he's willing to have them shoot for the head then his question is probably not coming from a "lets not hurt them" place. But not knowing WHY he is suggesting this course of action makes answering your question more difficult. There is a line of thinking that goes "the bad guys are likely to be wearing armor so we skip the thorax altogether and aim for pelvis or head to start with. That line of logic and the folks that are practicing that as "plan A" are NOT coming from the "police dealing with average street crimes pool". This is from folks who are more likely to A. be using long guns as primary weapons, B. to be engaging folks that are also armed with rifles and heavier weapons working in groups and B. engaging folks often with business affiliation with freelance pharmaceutical distribution from south of the US border. Another group that practices going straight to pelvis or head is one that guards political VIP types and for whom a major threat profile is armor wearing folks. Again, not the average street cop concerns or mission profile. And frankly if your friend saw the overwhelming majority of cops shoot he'd probably change his mind and say "shoot at the biggest thing you can shoot at ...from as CLOSE to it as you can get....."
  11. One of the biggest disservices done to new shooters and non shooters by ignorant gun salesmen is recommending the tiniest, hardest kicking , hardest to shoot accurately gun in the store because" it does not weigh too much for the little lady and it will fit in your purse" and usually when recommending a J frame it is "simple to operate and not as difficult to use as an automatic"..... You know what's NOT simple to operate? A car. And virtually all of these people can figure out how to get in the car, stick a key in the ignition, put it in gear, back it out of their drive way, use a turn signal (sometimes....) turn the wheel and apply the accelerator to move the car up and down the road, maintain a steady speed, apply pressure to the break to make it stop when they need to and check their mirrors when changing lanes. So even though their wife/mother/girlfriend/whatever somehow manages to move their one ton motor vehicle to and from work, the mall and church with monotonous regularity (often while texting and reading facebook at the same time) and they probably drove a car TO THE STORE they are apparently too stupid to operate a midsize semi auto pistol? REALLY? Buyer beware. Salesmen are good at what? Selling . And more times than not the experience level of those manning the gun counter and pertinent relevant experience with the products is not much more than the experience of the customer.
  12. If you didn't feel you were in enough danger to shoot them in the chest then you were not in enough danger to shoot them PERIOD. Lethal force is LETHAL force and shooting someone a LITTLE is just like shooting them a lot. Once the gun comes out and goes BANG everything changes. Its not just for funsies anymore.....And what happens when you try to play Lone Ranger and shoot dude in the gun hand and the bullet ricochets off his gun and into his carotid artery? Or you shoot dude in the leg because you "don't want to hurt him" and you hit him square in the femoral artery and he bleeds out in 60 seconds? Now what? Oooops? "Sorry, my bad"...? There is a reason that virtually all police departments including the FBI dropped "shooting to wound" as a strategy a half century ago. And the only people that argue for it is people who have ZERO experience with, or education in violence. So they should probably hop on their unicorn and ride it over the rainbow and stop making ignorant suggestions about things they have no idea about.
  13. As others have said..."It really depends". It depends on how much you want to spend. Are you looking to spend $1250? $750 ? $450 ? $350 ? A decent to good to excellent quality 9mm can be had depending on what you are willing to spend. It depends on how big a gun you are looking to carry. There is a big difference between a Kahr CM9 and a Beretta 92 or a Glock 34. Some of us actually carry full sized guns like Glock 17s and 34s on a daily basis but those of us that do that are far from the typical gun carrier. Most people are interested in carrying a gun that is "easy to carry". I'm interested in carrying a gun that is easy to fight with. A fire extinguisher that only puts out tiny camp fires is a not the best thing to have when the house is burning down..... It also depends on what type of action you prefer. Striker fired with polymer frame? That's going to get you in the game at a lower price. A 1911 that has been "tricked out" ? A LOT more expensive. Traditional DA/SA? More expensive than the Striker fired gun but less than the 1911. It also to some degree depends on your skill level. If you are a new shooter you might not be capable of doing your best work with a tiny gun. For that matter most seasoned shooters are going to shoot a mid sized or compact pistol much better than a subcompact. A new shooter and a Beretta Nano was a recipe for frustration in a class I taught several years ago. Tiny guns are easier to carry but much harder to shoot well especially at speed under stress. On the other hand if you have won the Back Up Gun division at a regional IDPA match then you probably aren't going to lose a fight because you can't shoot your Glock 43 well enough.... but again those guys are not the typical gun carrier either. Again, it all depends.

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