Climber

Here you go.... From an early age I have always been intrigued by the Old West and western movies and western culture. Most red blooded American boys grew up watching westerns on TV and reading about the Old West in books. After all, the American Culture is somewhat the Cowboy way. We fight for what is right. We put in a full day's work. We don't let our friends down, and we keep our word when we give it. We'll fight to right a wrong, but don't go looking for trouble.My heroes have always been cowboys and I spent many an hour in my childhood with my toy six shooters keeping my back yard free of rustlers and robbers. As I got older I began getting into martial arts and specificly the combative use of the gun. I practiced long and hard to develop my shooting skills, but there is more to it than the hardware aspect. I looked for books to read on mindset and technique and tactics and stories of shootings and what worked and what didn't. What I realized was that even though the west was not always as WILD as popular culture makes it out to have been, there were a fair number of folks getting into a fair number of gunfights. Maybe we could learn something from them? After all, if you learn from those that have done it, then maybe looking back at some Old West gunfights might be a good place to go for things that might help keep us alive today. So What did I find? Well, I started reading everything I could get my hands on. I soon found that there were a few individuals that were involved in multiple gunfights and seemed to always come out on top. So the obvious question was" why?". My research led me to find that the dynamics of the confrontations are really no different than they are today.So if the dynamics are the same, then we can look at what they did to survive their fights and apply that to ours today. I could go on for many pages using scores of historical gunfight examples but I will keep this confined to a few examples of fights involving two individuals. On one hand we have a famous lawman. A Civil War veteran and peaceofficer who developed a reputation as the "Prince Of Pistoleers". This man was James Butler Hickok, better known as "Wild Bill".The other was a man of considerable skill with a pistol who was just as short tempered as he was fast and accurate. This man was neither a lawman nor served in the army, but developed his skill at arms on his own from regular practice and combined that with a fierce will to win to become possibly the most dangerous man in the Old West....John Wesley Hardin. We'll look at Hickok first. In his famous gunfight with Dave Tutt July 21, 1865 in Springfield, Missouri they both met in the street "showdown" style. This was actually not very common regardless of what TV westerns lead us to believe. This fight stemmed from a watch won in a poker game,stoked by a rivalry over the same woman and ended with a man lying dead. Hickok had lost the watch to Tutt in a card game the previous night due to the fact that Hickok was unable to pay a debt he owed. Tutt took the watch as collateral. Tutt also went about town making a spectacle of wearing the watch and telling all who would listen that Hickok could not pay his debt. Hickok warned Tutt to cease and desist, but Tutt would not stop. So when they met in the town square the next day the fight was on. Hickok told Tutt to take the watch off, Tutt responded by pulling a pistol and firing. Hickok pulled his pistol, took careful aim and fired, sending a bullet through Tutt's heart from a distance of about 75 yards! Hickok immediately wheeled and pointed his pistol at Tutt supporters to his rear and they decided discretion to be the better part of valor and left. So what is there to learn here? A non gun culture guy might say "Hickok was a good shot" and they would be correct, but there is more here. Hickok was reported to have aimed carefully while Tutt fired wildly at him. Hickok fired a single decisive shot while his opponent fired wildly hitting nothing. So maybe accurate shooting wins gunfights? This is what we teach in the long distance shooting module of our Advanced Close Range Gunfighting class. And we see that Hickok turned and did a 360 degree scan after his opponent was down. How many of us practice this today in order to not be the victim of your opponent's possible accomplices? This is a basic tenet of gunfighting and we drill it in depth in our Close Range Gunfighting class. Another gunfight Hickok was involved in was July 17,1870 while he was town Marshal in Hays, Kansas. In this one the classic saloon brawl turns deadly. Hickok had previously angered members of the 7th cavalry (Custer's command) by roughing up and arresting one of their comrades.Three soldiers planned revenge and approached him, jumped him in a barroom and came close to ending his life. One jumped on his back another grabbed him by the arms as a third pulled a 1863 Remington Army issue pistol and stuck it to Hickok's head and pulled the trigger. The gun misfired and in the confusion Hickok was able to free his pistol and shoot two of the soldiers and make his escape back to his hotel room where he retrieved his rifle in case of further attack. Here we see a case where multiple assailants end up in a grappling situation with their victim. The victim has to access his weapon mid fight and shoot his way loose of the villians. Fortunately the bad guys had a faulty weapon. Does this sound very similar to what we see today with multiple assailants. Not all fights are one on one affairs. Sometimes the bad guys bring friends. And do you work on in-fight weapons access? Anyone can draw a gun from an exposed holster on the range, but things get more difficult and desperate when attacked by multiple opponents and you have to fend them off in order to access your pistol. This is where something like our Zero To Five Feet Pistol Gunfighting comes into play. We also see here the intangible element of luck, as the misfire saved Wild Bill. Sometimes luck is what saves you. Gunfights are dangerous affairs.Sometimes luck is all that seperates survivors from losers. The last item here is we see Wild Bill, faced with superior numbers did not stand and shoot it out. He got clear and armed himself with a rifle in case of further attack. The rifle has ALWAYS been a more effective tool than the pistol and still is today. A reason we put so much emphasis on having a rifle handy and knowing how to use it in our Rifle Gunfighting series of classes. The final Hickok fight we will look at is the October 5, 1871 gunfight in Abilene Kansas with Texas gambler/gunman Phil Coe. Phil Coe and Ben Thompson (another gunman of some fame from Texas) owned the Bulls Head Saloon in Abilene Kansas.There had never been any love lost between the three as Hickok was a Union veteran and the two Texans were Confederates. The 6 years since the end ofthe war had done little to make feelings any better about the war. Coe had once bragged to Hickok that he could "kill a crow on the wing" with a pistol, as a warning to Hickok. Hickok replied "Did the crow have a pistol? Was he shooting back? I will be". The animosity just grew and grew. The argument began over the sign in front of the Saloon depicting a bull in a "indelicate" pose. Hickok ordered that part of the sign be painted over and Coe said "no". Hickok requisitioned 2 painters to paint over the bull's offending anatomy and Coe was infuriated. He began stirring up trouble for Hickok among the texas cowhands in town and a general disturbance insued. That night as the cowhands all but rioted in the street Coe stood in front of the saloon firing his pistol. Hickok came up asking who was firing. Coe said he had shot at a stray dog. Hickok demanded his pistol, and in a flash Coe fired at Hickok. Hickok returned fire striking Coe in the stomach. Coe shot too quickly and the bullet had gone between Hickok's legs striking the dirt. A fast miss is no match for a solid hit. This is a basic concept that we convey in our Defensive Pistol Skills classes. As Hickok turned and did his 360 degree scan to insure he was not shot from behind ,a man with a pistol ran toward him. Hickok aimed and fired. Suddenly he realized he had just shot Mike Williams -his own deputy- who had heard the shooting and came running to Hickok's aid. From this we can learn a few more things. When we scan for other opponents we need to look closely so we do not shoot without identifying the target first. This can prevent a friendly fire incident from happening.The guy approaching with a gun may very well also be wearing a badge. We can also apply the reverse of this. It might not be a bad idea to present our gun "low profile" as we turn and scan. That way we will be less likely to get shot by responding officers. Again we see Hickok taking aim and making good center of mass hits. Accurate shooting still stops opponents...unfortunately even friendlies too. We see most of Hickok's fights generally being line of duty affairs where he is trying to either apprehend someone or disarm them. On the other hand the majority of John Wesley Hardin's fights were a case of an argument turned deadly, or him trying to keep from being apprehended. John Wesley Hardin grew up in a very violent period in east Texas during and just after the Civil War. Back then there was little order and what order there was , was the occupation force of the union army and afterwards their political appointees backed up by federal troops. This was during the lawless days of reconstruction. Hardin grew up with gun in hand and a resolve to survive. It would serve him well in the years to come. Whether Hardin was a homicidal maniac or just a guy with a quick temper that gambled and drank is open for debate, what is not open for debate is his skill with a pistol or his fighting mindset. We will now take a look at a couple of Wes Hardin's fights. His first gunfight was at the age of 16 in November 1867. He had been visiting an uncle and had gotten into a friendly wrestling match with an ex slave named Mage who was employed there chopping cotton. Hardin and his cousin both wrestled Mage who happened to be a very large man. Somewhere along the way Mage got angry and threatened to kill the two boys. The next day as Hardin rode his old horse home he was confronted on the road by the ex slave. Hardin says Mage charged him witha large stick.Mage took hold of the reigns and tried to hit him with the stick. Hardin drew his pistol and fired, but Mage kept coming. Hardin fired several shots finally felling the attacker. Mage died later that month. We see pistols are not terribly powerful stoppers. Here we see a large attacker with a contact weapon who requires more than one or two rounds to stop. Isn't that what we work in Force on Force drills today? Shoot until the threat is down. Hardin is believed to have been carrying a Colt Dragoon. So even multiple rounds from a .44 didn't immediately stop this enraged attacker. Something else to consider. Maybe placement is more important than bore diameter? It is also interesting to note that after this Hardin was more likely to shoot for the head. Many of his future victims were felled with a bullet in the brain. This is why we teach a burst to the chest followed immediately by a burst to the head if the assailant is still up. This is a basic tenet of our Close Range Gunfighting curriculum. We now skip ahead a few years to late 1870 and see Hardin travelling. The hotel he has stopped in has a bar and a very attractive woman sits in there apparently upset. Hardin approaches her and strikes up a conversation. She claims to be having relationship problems and he tries to comfort her. She asks if he'd like to go upstairs and apparently the prospect of a pretty and vulnerable young woman was more than he could resist. Upon enterring the room however there is a loud banging on the door. She says it is her boyfriend and he will kill Hardin. The boyfriend enters and confronts Hardin, pistol pulled. Hardin says he didn't know she was his girl and apologizes. The man asks Hardin to hand over his money.Hardin agrees and says he does not want any trouble. Hardin then drops the money at the man's feet . As he takes his eyes off Hardin and bends down to pick up the cash, Hardin draws a pistol and fires a round through the man's head. Turns out the man and woman had been running this same scam for some time. Here we see how not all bad guys are even guys and you can be rused into really bad situations if you are not careful.Girls can be bad guys too! However Hardin showed calm under duress and was able to use misdirection and a ruse of his own to reclaim the initiative and shoot a man who had him held at gunpoint. This "under the gun" situation is exactly the type situation we look to solve in our Zero to Five Foot Pistol Gunfighting classes. Next we will look at an incident in 1871 on a cattle drive to Abilene. Hardin's herd has been getting mixed up with a mexican herd that was coming up the trail behind them. An argument insued and Hardin was shot at by one of the vaqueros. He rode back to his own camp and with his cousin, armed himself with a pair of pistols. As the mexicans got closer Hardin and his cousin mounted their horses and charged them. Hardin ended up killing 5 of the 6 vaqueros, his cousin killing the other.This made Hardin a bit of a celebrity and word of this exploit soon found its way to Abilene and Marshal Hickok. Not exactly the best way to handle a livestock dispute these days, but if a fight is imminent it is best to be on the offensive not the defensive. That is something that Hardin was always prepared to do. He had no qualms about shooting first when a fight became apparent. If we wait too long to act, we can dig ourselves into a hole we cannot get out of. We all have to develop our "line in the sand" where if it is crossed we are prepared to fight. Otherwise we end up so far behind the curve that we can never catch up. That is why being able to pick up on pre assault cues and see the fight coming is so important. Once you know the fight is about to be on it is time to get proactive, not reactive! The final one we will look at is the May 26,1874 killing of Brown County Texas deputy Charles Webb. This was the shooting for which Hardin was convicted and sent to prison in 1877. That day Hardin had spent his birthday gambling on horse races and generally carousing and having a good time. That evening he was approached by a deputy from another county while standing in front of a saloon.He recognizes the man who approaches with one hand behind his back. Hardin asks Webb if he has any "papers" on Hardin and Webb says no that he is not thereon business he was just there to enjoy a night on the town. Hardin asks him then to join him for a drink and turns to walk toward the doors of the saloon.As Webb approaches he points the pistol he was holding behind his back and fires hitting Hardin in the side.At that moment one of Hardin's friends yells for Hardin to "look out"! Hardin lunges sideways at the same moment drawing and firing from probably a retention type position and shoots Webb in the face with his Smith and Wesson .44 American. Just looking at sheer dynamics and not getting bogged down in the obvious questions surrounding the shooting of a law enforcement officer (even if he was not on official police business and shot first from ambush), we have an assailant with pistol already drawn employing a ruse to get close to the victim. When the victim turns , leaving an opening, the assailant raises and fires his pistol. The "victim" here got off the line of attack and was hit with a peripheral hit instead of center of mass and was able to draw and return fire from a "stanceless" retention position while getting out of the way and score a headshot to end the altercation. This is very similar to what we teach with the Pistol Inquartata technique . How similar is that to a mugging/murder attempt in an alley in any city in America today? The ability to get off the "X", get your gun into play and fire quickly is just as important today as it was back then. While not all the scenarios are still something we would run into on a daily basis (I doubt I'll ever get in a dispute over cattle) they all do share characteristics of dynamics that we do still encounter in physical confrontation today in 2011. Just as it was in 1869 accurate shooting still ends fights.Hits to the chest and head stopped people then and tend to do the same today whereas peripheral hits may or may not. Sometimes you will not be able to just "Don't let them get close and shoot well" like is taught in some places, but may have to physically fight off multiple assailants in order to even access your weapon and shoot from retention to make space to get away. Rifles are still best if they can be accessed. When the shooting is over make sure no one is coming up behind you bydoing a 360 degree scan. And LOOK at who is coming not just glance and shoot if someone is approaching! The life you save may be a brother officer or a family member. We also see where we need to be aware of our surroundings and don't be quick to trust unknown contacts. They may just be employing a ruse to get close enough to be able to overtake you. If the fight is on, then the fight is on! Get proactive! You owe them no mercy.Get off the "X" and shoot them to the ground! If you are hit, keep fighting! Handguns are still underpowered when compared to long guns. Even if you get hit, odds are you will survive. But only if you keep from getting hit multiple times. Finish the fight! And practice is essential. Both Hickok and Hardin practiced with their armaments religiously. It is an interesting side note that both men were eventually killed by ambush from behind. They had developed the skill that made their killers so fearful of their ability that they had to resort to shooting them from behind. It is interesting to look back at where we came from. Sure we carry Glocks and AKs today and not 1851 Navy Colts and Winchesters. We have smokeless powder and 15 to 20 rd mags,instead of six shooters and big clouds of smoke when we pull the trigger, but the software hasn't really changed much since Cain and Abel. People still fight much the same.The dynamics of confrontation are still the same.The badguys still get close to rob rape or pillage and often bring friends. You still are less likely to get hit if you move. You still have to hit the badguys in important places to reliably stop them.So maybe looking back at where we came from will help keep us safe while we get to where we are going.

Day by Day books by Bourne are excellent. I started and finished them both in the past 72 hours.

I hear ya man. I've got M4-2000 and should have my stamp back in the next few weeks for a prodigy. I'm discovering that these NFA items dont like to be lonely. They enjoy the company of other NFA items..... Looking forward to your review on the YHM. I would like to get a .308 can next summer if the funds allow.

Sent in app 9/2/11 and went pending on 9/14/11. Just called and was told that the average time from pending to approval is now 5 months!!! Crazy. I got approval for another device this spring and only took 2 months for approval from pending time. Are yall seeing it take 5 months now?

Nice reply GA. I agree completely with the school of thought "you get what you pay for". Things are cheap for a reason: less productions costs, cheaper materials, not a lot of R&D and/or less marketing costs. All things considered, for a few hundred more dollars you can get a proven unit that will last a lifetime. Long term peace of mind is worth $200 to me.

I have the AAC M4-2000 with the QD blackout muzzle brake. It is super easy to take on/off and it locks up very tight. Sound reduction is impressive.

+1 for Mr. Cain. Great to work with and helped me a lot during the process.

Nice looking rig. I just placed an order and it should arrive at my dealer any day now. You're at least a week ahead of me!

I have had Heritage Custom do a bit of work for me (re-coat, drilling, etc..) and have been very happy. Law Enforcement, Custom Rifles, Rifle Designs, Heritage Custom Arms, LLC, Rossville, GA

Thanks a lot for the info yall. I have read some good things about Bison Armory so I may give them a closer look. Will a 14.5" barrel give similar performance out to 250 yards as a 16"?

I'm in the market for a 6.8 upper that will by used as my new toy but the wife will understand it to be my son's deer rifle (multi-purpose!). I have a bushy A2 and a Noveske Recce so I have the lower covered. What do yall think is a good quality manufacturer? I don't want to spend the $ for another Noveske so I'll want to keep the purchase price below $900. DPMS? RRA? Bushy? I'm looking for something that is minute of deer out to at least 200 yards. Thanks.

I'm in the market for a suppressor as well. Have you checked out the silencerresearch.com site? It has a lot of great reviews on cans for 22 up to .50bmg. The paid service is well worth the $30 in my opinion. The liberty shoofly gets a great review over there.

Thanks guys. I'm definitely adding the regular trust to our will. I don't want the moneygrabbers getting any more of my assets than necessary after I kick the bucket. Seems you all are in favor of the gun trust so it looks like I'm heading in that direction. Thanks for the feedback!

I read thru the posts and did not see a clearcut answer. Is it really worth the hassle/expense of setting up a trust? I have been told my CLEO signs the docs pretty fast, so is there a solid reason I should set up the trust? Below is a list of pro's / con's as I understand it: Positives *less upfront hassle (fingerprints, docs to sign, etc..) *easier when you get multiple items *ability of trustees to use your items Negatives *Possibility to close the trust loophole. This could force you go thru the regular application process or as a worst-case, get your items confiscated. The main reason I feel this could potentially come true as there seems to be the possibility to abuse the trust option. *Expense *Need to maintain the trust What do you guys think? I'm ready to make a move but not sure which option is best. Anything I missed? Thanks for the feedback.

Depending on when your buddy bought it, he may have paid $850 to $1100 for the rifle. In todays market, the A2 configuration is probably in the $800 range for one in good shape. I have an A2 Bushy with a 20" barrel and really like it. It has been flawless and has not been pampered. My other AR, a Noveske, barely sees the light of day as I'm afraid it may get a scratch on the beautiful finish.... If you can get it for $800 or less without any paperwork, and its in really good shape, you did good.

Brass has been claimed. Thanks.

Still have ~60 rounds of .38 special brass. PM if interested.

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I had a Pro Carry II for a year and really liked it. It took a few trips to the gunsmith to get a misfeed issued worked out but after that it was golden. I ended up trading it for a H&K that I had been wanting and now wish I would have held on to the Pro Carry. I also have a Raptor II that is an amazing weapon. It is crazy accurate and reliable. It is a bit large and heavy for EDC but I would trust my life to it without hesitation.

Thanks for the info guys. I think I'll take it to a smith instead of beating on them with a hammer.

Hey guys, Just got some Trijicon night sights for my Glock. I do not have a sight push tool and was considering doing it the old fashioned way- hammer style. You all have any luck doing it this way or would you suggest getting a tool or going to a smith? I have heard you have to be careful not only for scratching up the surface but possibly damaging the tritium cylinders if beating with a hammer. If you recommend a smith, anyone in Chatt that could knock this project out quickly? Thanks.

+1 on the advice. Nothing to see here, keep moving along please.....

Nice reports. Please keep us posted. I'm very interested in this round and your build.

That is awesome. I have two but they are both mean and tough as leather. Must get that from their mom. It is amazing to me that people can't see the basic need to prepare. How did this get lost in only one generation? I suppose it has to do with a McDonald and Starbucks on every corner and the instant gratification of a Burrito supreme from Taco Bell.

If you are looking for revolver size small, I would vote go with an auto in 9mm. I have the Kahr PM9 and it has been 100% reliable. In a nemesis pocket holster it prints no more than my wallet. IWB it disappears. The PM9 is my deep conceal gun and my summer gun. I just got the memo this week and picked up a Glock 19. This thing is awesome! Believe it or not, it does not print much more than the kahr in IWB. 15+1 rounds so I don't often bring along an extra mag.