New Guy, an FFL/SOT from Franklin

[Guest ETS_Inc]

Good evening, ladies and gents. I'm the new guy, so I guess it's my turn to introduce myself.

My name is Frank Maschhoff. I am the President of Elite Tactical Systems, Inc (ETS, Inc.), a Type 07 FFL / Class 2 SOT, out of Franklin, TN.

ETS manufactures suppressors (.22 and .223 currently), AOW's (Rem 870 and NAA .22 mini-revolver / wallet combos), SBR's, SBS's, and MG's. In addition to manufacturing, we also do retail sales of other manufacturers products. We also do a lot of work on AR-15 style rifles.

We rent retail space from Lock, Stock, and Barrel gunsmiths, in Franklin, so anyone familiar with Tom and John Marker's shop will know where we are located. Tom does a lot of our gunsmithing work for us, including barrel threading. He has been working on guns since he was a small-arms machinist in the Marine Corps in 1969. He is also a retired tool and die man, having spent most of his life in the automotive industry.

As for myself, I bring a lot of firearms experience to the table. I was an active duty soldier for eight years. I spent two years as an Infantryman (11B) with the 8th ID(M) in Germany, and an additional six years as an Artillery Forward Observer (13F) with the 101st ABN DIV (AASLT) at Ft. Campbell, KY. (I spent about 2 of those 6 years doing Military Intelligence work as well.) During my time with the famed 101st, I got the opportunities to deploy to Kosovo in 2000, and to Afghanistan in 2002. After I left the Army in late 2002, I worked doing Private Security / Executive Protection in the Nashville area for about a year. I am also an NRA certified Pistol Instructor and TN Dept. of Safety Certified Handgun Carry Permit Instructor. I began shooting in the fall of 1983, when I took my NRA Hunter's Safety Course in Great Falls, MT. (My deer hunting skills are non-existant, so don't expect much advice from me in that regard.) I fired my first handgun, a Taurus 66, in 1987, under the tutelage of my dad, who is retired Air Force and a Deputy Sheriff. I have had carry permits issued in 5 States over the last 10 years.

My personal gun collection is very limited, as I am a staunch proponent of getting to know one system intimately, and sticking with it. Since I don't hunt, my guns are primarily meant for self-defense. My preferred platforms include 1911's (particularly Para-Ordnance's LDA trigger), S&W revolvers, AR-15/M-16 rifles, and Remington 870 shotguns.

Some of you might know of ETS, Inc, as we set up at both the Bill Goodman's and Bob Pope gunshows in Nashville and Franklin (formerly Smyrna for the Pope shows). You might also know me from ASP in Joelton, where I teach carry permit classes.

If you ever have a question about TN handgun carry permit issues, or about the National Firearms Act of 1934 (NFA or NFA34), feel free to drop me a line.

Glad to be here, and hope to learn and contribute.

[BimmerFreak]

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Edited September 23, 2008 by BimmerFreak

[Guest ETS_Inc]

Welcome Frank!

FYI:

Frank is a gem of a guy!

Ahh, Joe-san, you're going to make me blush. You keep talking like that, and you'll have to buy me dinner. Then people will really start talking. Thanks for the good words, brother.

For everyone else, when Joe and I first sat down to talk business, we started talking war stories, and realized that we had both been stationed in Mainz, Germany at the same time. In fact, we were both at the same Monsters of Rock concert on 07 SEP 91. Just goes to show that the Army and the gun business are both small worlds.

[Guest Phantom6]

Greetings and salutations Frank. Looking forward to picking your brain and possibly your product catalog. Our firearms collection is similar. Rather than the 1911 I shoot a Springfield XD however (yes, when it comes to semi-auto pistols, I'm a blasphemous S.O.B.).

Welcome aboard.

[Guest macho999]

The transfer on an aow is just $5 right? I'd like to see a picture of some of these aow 870s.

One day when I move or Claiborne County gets its sheriff problems fixed I may get into some light class III stuff, known as stuff that isn't $20,000 m16s that are 20 years old and would be going for about 500 bucks if not for certain laws.

[Guest utarch00]

Frank

Welcome.

Frank is a great guy. I had him engrave my lower 2 months ago for my SBR. He did a great job and quick turn around. His suppressors, SBS, a & AOW all look great.

I will definetly deal with frank again.

P.S. Frank are you teaching the Carry class on Saturday at ASP? I will be there with a group of friends.

[SkWaShDeM]

NAA .22 mini-revolver / wallet combos

Can you send me a link to a picture or just send me a picture of that? That just makes me curious.

[Guest ETS_Inc]

The transfer on an aow is just $5 right? I'd like to see a picture of some of these aow 870s.

One day when I move or Claiborne County gets its sheriff problems fixed I may get into some light class III stuff, known as stuff that isn't $20,000 m16s that are 20 years old and would be going for about 500 bucks if not for certain laws.

Yes, sir, the transfer for an AOW is only $5. If you were to manufacture one yourself, the tax is the same $200 as manufacturing any other NFA weapon on a Form 1. (Good ole NFA loopholes. Luckily, I love finding loopholes and exploiting them as much as possible.)

There are ways around sheriff's who are reluctant to sign NFA paperwork. The easiest is to form a trust, or, you can form a corporation. Either of those are legal entities which do not need a CLEO signature.

There is a law in TN that if your CLEO is going to sign NFA paperwork, they must sign it within 21 days. Many people believe the law is such that they are required to sign it, period. However, I've been assured that that is not the case. I know for a fact that Murfreesboro PD won't sign-off, as their legal department has erroneously told them that they'd have liability if an NFA weapon were used illegally. (They don't assume any liability by signing the paperwork. All their signature does is say that they have no knowledge that you are prohibited from owning an NFA weapon, nor do they have any knowledge that you intend to use it for illegal purposes.) Heck, they aren't even really signing off that the weapon is legal within their jurisdiction, deciding the legality where you live is part of check that NFA Branch conducts.

I am with you on the crazy prices of some NFA weapons. We can thank the 1986 FOPA (Firearms Owner's Protection Act) for that. As part of that legislation, the manufacture of new machinegun for sale to private citizens (non-FFL/SOT's, or government agencies) was stopped in May 86. There was a good part of that legislation, though. That was the bill which gave us the McClure - Vollmer Interstate Commerce Act, which allows us to transport firearms between States, even if the firearm would be considered illegal in the State we are traversing, as long as the weapon is legal in our State of origin and our State of destination, the weapon is stored properly, and we are simply traveling through the State where the weapon would be considered illegal. If you so much as stop to see "Nelly, the World's Oldest Fossilized Mammoth", you are considered a visitor to the State though, so your guns better be legal there.

Since the passage of 86 FOPA, the supply is limited, and ever-dwindling, but the demand rises. Ergo, in accordance with the law of supply and demand, the price has skyrocketed. Ya gotta love the free-market economy.

[Guest ETS_Inc]

Frank

Welcome.

Frank is a great guy. I had him engrave my lower 2 months ago for my SBR. He did a great job and quick turn around. His suppressors, SBS, a & AOW all look great.

I will definetly deal with frank again.

P.S. Frank are you teaching the Carry class on Saturday at ASP? I will be there with a group of friends.

I won't be teaching that class. Rob will be teaching. He should be well-rested, as he's getting back from his honeymoon in Cabo the day before. Thanks for the good words, brother.

[Guest utarch00]

There are ways around sheriff's who are reluctant to sign NFA paperwork. The easiest is to form a trust, or, you can form a corporation. Either of those are legal entities which do not need a CLEO signature.

I used a Trust for my SBR.

[Guest ETS_Inc]

Can you send me a link to a picture or just send me a picture of that? That just makes me curious.

Here's a picture of the wallet, borrowed from Gunbroker:

The gun fits inside the holster, which then snaps shut. The area where the hammer would be is split, so that you can get your thumb inside, to cock the gun. You then pull the trigger like you normally would do. The gun/wallet combo disappears in a pocket, and can't be distinguished from a regular wallet until drawn.

The BATFE ruled several years ago that since the gun could be fired from inside the wallet holster, and didn't look like a gun at first glance, it must be registered as an Any Other Weapon, or AOW, under the NFA.

We sell the NAA AOW's for $275 for .22 lr, and $295 for the .22 Magnum; that price includes both the gun and the appropriate wallet. Sales tax and $5 NFA transfer tax are not included in those prices.

[bteague2]

Welcome to the site Frank.

[The Rabbi]

Despite relying on outmoded Canadian hardware for his personal safety, Frank is a great guy and good to deal with. Also makes some mean food. I'm looking forward to seeing some recipes here.

[molonlabetn]

Welcome Frank. I've seen your work displayed at On-Target, and on THR.

Thank you for your service, sir. We're honored to have you.

[shaftbass]

This may be trivial, but what are the steps I need to take from start to finish to legally buy, own, and install a suppressor on my Bushmaster M4? What total cost am I looking at here.

[Guest ETS_Inc]

This may be trivial, but what are the steps I need to take from start to finish to legally buy, own, and install a suppressor on my Bushmaster M4? What total cost am I looking at here.

Not the least bit trivial.

First, you need to decide on which make and model of suppressor you want. They range in price, from $500 to $2000. Our 5.56mm can is $550 and simply screws onto your threaded barrel (you just remove your flash hider). Others mount on quick detach muzzle devices which replace your flash hider (looking at about $85 - 100 for each extra QD mount), or some simply fit over your A2 flash hider.

Once you've decided on make and model, and you and the dealer have agreed to a price, you pay for it. The dealer might have it in stock, but not always. (It gets expensive to stock every suppressor on the market - there are a lot of them). If it's not in stock, the dealer must order it from the manufacturer. In that case, if they don't have it in stock, you have to wait for it to be built - this could take 2-8 weeks, or longer, depending on manufacturer.

Once the dealer has it in his hands, he helps you fill out your paperwork. You need to do two copies of BATFE Form 5320.4 (aka Form 4), two Certificates of Compliance (you certify that you are a U.S. citizen), and two fingerprint cards. Many dealers will do the fingerprints for you themselves. (You have to have a certain bit of info in the ORI box of the fingerprint card, so it's best to get them from your dealer, rather than the cops.)

Your next stop is Wal-Greens, or somewhere else that does passport photos. You will need a set of two pictures, one for each copy of the Form 4. You tape, staple, nail, or somehow attach the pictures to the paperwork.

Next, you go see you friendly neighborhood CLEO (Chief Law Enforcement Officer). This can be the Chief of Police, County Sheriff, or District Attorney. He signs the back of each Form 4, and returns the paperwork to you.

At this time, you might want to call or visit your dealer, to make sure everything is in order and ready go.

Now, write a check for $200 (for suppressor, MG, SBR, SBS, or DD; $5 for an AOW transfer). Toss the check into an envelope, along with the Form 4's, Certificates of Compliance, and Fingerprint cards. Address it to BATFE-NFA Branch in Atlanta, and begin your wait.

About 6-8 weeks later, your FFL will recieve a copy of the Form 4, complete with examiner's signature and a tax stamp. He calls you up and tells you to come by and pick up your suppressor.

You visit your friendly FFL, fill out a 4473, and take possession of your new toy.

Cost:

Suppressor: $500 - 2000 + sales tax

Passport photos: $8

Transfer tax: $200

Stamp to mail paperwork to BATFE: $0.41

So, you could be out the door for as little as $760, depending on the make and model of suppressor.

After you take possession, you make several photocopies of your Form 4. The original goes wherever you keep important documents, such as birth certificates, etc. It behooes you to keep a copy of the Form 4 with the can, a copy in your gun safe, a copy in your range bag, and an extra copy in your vehicle, alongside your vehicle registration.

Legally, the Form 4 is a tax return, and nothing more. As such, it is protected by tax-related confidentiality laws. The only people who can DEMAND to see your Form 4 are an IRS agent, or a BATFE agent/investigator. However, if you were to be stopped by Joe ThinBlueLine, an officer with Podunk PD, and refused to show him your Form 4, you'd be making life hard for yourself. He can, and probably will, take you into custody until such time as you can prove that your suppressor is legally registered on the NFA Registry. (According to TCA, it is illegal to own a machinegun or suppressor in TN, unless it is registered with the Federal NFA Registry. The burden of proof is on the owner, and your proof is your Form 4.) If you refuse to show the officer your Form 4, he does have the option of calling BATFE and verifying that the can is, in fact, yours. However, you can guess how high he'll prioritize that, and you'd be especially screwed if it were after 5pm Eastern Time, when NFA Branch closes, or at anytime on the weekend. Also, the range on Hobson Pike will not allow you to bring any NFA weapons unless you show them proof of registration. You aren't required to show them your Form 4, but if you aren't willing to do so, they aren't required to let you on the range with the weapon.

As for storage, you are simply required to store it in such a way as to keep it inaccessible to anybody besides the registered owner(s). You can not loan it to your brother-in-law for him to take to the range without you. You do not need to keep it in a bank vault-like safe. Just keep it away from others.

There is a common misconception that a BATFE agent can enter your home at anytime, once you own an NFA weapon. This is wrong! This misconception came about from the former practice of issuing FFL's to so-called "kitchen-table FFL's." These were folks who'd get an FFL, but didn't have a place of business; they simply worked from their home. President Clinton stopped allowing licenses to be issued to people without a business location. If you had an FFL back then, the ATF coule come into your palce of business as many times as they wished. If your home was your palce of business, guess what?, they could come in as often as they wished. Many people wrongly believe that you need a license to buy or own a machinegun. Therefore, they believed that if ATF could enter a licensees premises as often as they wished, they must be able to just come into your home willy-nilly if you owned an NFA weapon. The law regarding BATFE inspections of FFL's was changed awhile ago. Now, they can only do a surprise inspection of an FFL's premises once during a twelve month period. They can do as many announced inspections as they see fit. This is only for those folks who have Type 01, 02, 06, 07, 08, 09, 10, or 11 FFL's. It does not apply to either people who posses NFA weapons registered on Form 1's or 4's, or to Type 03 FFL's (C&R licensees).

If a BATFE agent were to ask to see your stamp, you can make an appointment to bring it and the weapon to them, at their office, during business hours. But, honestly, BATFE employees are busy people. They are too busy trying to bust FFL's, or tracking down stolen guns, or burning down religious cults. They don't have the time to check up on someone who owns an NFA toy or two. If the BATFE is smelling around your house, it's because you've done something wrong, and they're just getting ready to put the nail in your coffin. If you're a law-abiding citizen, you've nothing about which to worry.

Hope that helps, if you need clarification on anything, please ask.

[Guest jcoyle6]

Glad to have you here, jefe.

[Guest utarch00]

Chris

To forgo all of the pictures, signatures, fingerprints, etc, you can go the Trust route like I did for my SBR.

I can explain it to you if you have questions.

[Guest GlocKingTN]

Welcome to the board Frank! Hope you enjoy your stay and please feel free to jump in any posts you like!

[shaftbass]

Thanks for all that info.

Thanks Chris too.

[Guest ETS_Inc]

Glad to be of assistance. When you go to buy a suppressor, just remember who helped you out......

[Guest se-real]

ETS_Inc: Your post states that you guys manufacture correct? Does that include the machining process or just assembly? My reason for asking is because I currently am a macinist for a company making medical implants and aircraft parts. Im really just curious if you guys were looking for another hand?

[Guest ETS_Inc]

Sorry, we're not in a position to do any hiring right now. Heck, my business partner / machinist and I have a hard enough time paying ourselves, much less anybody else.

Of course, if you and a LOT of your friends bought ETS products, I'd be in a much better position to hire employees.

[Marswolf]

Hi Frank. Welcome.

That's good info about ATF visits to your home. Lots of people don't understand that, including a friend who has some NFA weapons and was a cop for years. He's now a local constable. But you can't tell him anything.

You going to put up a website anytime soon?

[Donnie]

Welcome Frank. I met you at Joe's shop a few months ago. Nice to see you on here.