Restaurant Carry

[Guest justme]

I have pulled too many bodies from vehicles caused by those that thought they could handle their liquor.

Even though .08% has nothing to do with the handgun law, it is not a “legal limit”; it is a presumption that you are legally intoxicated.

If I’m in an armed encounter with a thug in convenience store the last thing in the world I need is some drunken azz stumbling into the middle of it and thinking their mind can process what they are seeing and that they can function.

I will not support any legislation that allows a HCP holder to drink while they are carrying. And in my opinion all it will do is ensure certain death of any legislation that would allow those of us that want to responsibly carry; be allowed to do so.

I would point you to Virginia and ask you to please explain to me how it is that people traveling in Virginia can legally open carry their firearms in any restaurant that serves alcohol for on site consumption, and yet there are no instances like those you explain. Just because someone is in a restaurant that serves alcohol does not mean they are drinking alcohol, and just because a person is carrying a firearm in such a restaurant does not mean they are not responsible. Virginia allows open carry, but not concealed carry of firearms in restaurants that serve alcohol for on site consumption, and yet we never hear of instances like those you describe. Are there irresponsible people--yes of course, but as I am so often informed--one bad apple does not spoil the barrel.

Your argument is the same type of argument that is used to fight college carry as well--and yet Utah is a shining example of successful carry on campus...

my thoughts are (1) crime does not stop just because we eat in restaurants that serve alcohol, and (2) law enforcement can eat in such an establishment and they are not prosecuted, but if a citizen did it--we would be prosecuted--why are leos more trustworthy than citizens?

respectfully, your reasoning does not hold water.

Edited February 5, 2009 by justme

[Fallguy]

I would point you to Virginia and ask you to please explain to me how it is that people traveling in Virginia can legally open carry their firearms in any restaurant that serves alcohol for on site consumption, and yet there are no instances like those you explain. Just because someone is in a restaurant that serves alcohol does not mean they are drinking alcohol, and just because a person is carrying a firearm in such a restaurant does not mean they are not responsible. Virginia allows open carry, but not concealed carry of firearms in restaurants that serve alcohol for on site consumption, and yet we never hear of instances like those you describe. Are there irresponsible people--yes of course, but as I am so often informed--one bad apple does not spoil the barrel.

Your argument is the same type of argument that is used to fight college carry as well--and yet Utah is a shining example of successful carry on campus...

my thoughts are (1) crime does not stop just because we eat in restaurants that serve alcohol, and (2) law enforcement can eat in such an establishment and they are not prosecuted, but if a citizen did it--we would be prosecuted--why are leos more trustworthy than citizens?

respectfully, your reasoning does not hold water.

I don't think Dave is opposed to carry in restaraunts, just a HCP holder being allowed to drink while in there and armed.

[DaveTN]

I would point you to Virginia and ask you to please explain to me how it is that people traveling in Virginia can legally open carry their firearms in any restaurant that serves alcohol for on site consumption, and yet there are no instances like those you explain. Just because someone is in a restaurant that serves alcohol does not mean they are drinking alcohol, and just because a person is carrying a firearm in such a restaurant does not mean they are not responsible. Virginia allows open carry, but not concealed carry of firearms in restaurants that serve alcohol for on site consumption, and yet we never hear of instances like those you describe. Are there irresponsible people--yes of course, but as I am so often informed--one bad apple does not spoil the barrel.

Your argument is the same type of argument that is used to fight college carry as well--and yet Utah is a shining example of successful carry on campus...

my thoughts are (1) crime does not stop just because we eat in restaurants that serve alcohol, and (2) law enforcement can eat in such an establishment and they are not prosecuted, but if a citizen did it--we would be prosecuted--why are leos more trustworthy than citizens?

respectfully, your reasoning does not hold water.

Because you are making assumptions that are not correct.

I was a Police Officer in Illinois (Where carry is prohibited by everyone except LEO’s) and I was stationed in Virginia for two years.

Even though it is a crime by itself to carry in Illinois we still responded to disturbances in bars where guns were involved…. A lot. I wasn’t a cop in Virginia; but I witnessed drunks pull guns in bars; first hand. Your statement “and yet we never hear of instances like those you describe”; doesn’t hold water. I don’t know why you haven’t heard of them or if you have checked.

As I stated… I support you being able to carry in a restaurant or even a bar; as long as you don’t drink.

I support carry on a college campus.

I do not support any legislation that allows you to drink while carrying in any bar or restaurant.

I really don’t want to address the LEO problem you have, it’s been beat to death here. We are not LEO’s; and what applies to them will not apply to us and vice versa. Let’s worry about us.

[Guest JeepMonkey]

I really don’t want to address the LEO problem you have, it’s been beat to death here. We are not LEO’s; and what applies to them will not apply to us and vice versa. Let’s worry about us.

Agreed 100%.

[soapbox]

An HCP or CCP does not give us superhuman law enforcement capabilities. It gives us the right to carry a firearm for our protection. Nobody with an HCP is going to draw down on someone in an attempt to arrest them for a crime. That's the job of a LEO. Our job as permit holders is to protect ourselves and those around us from an imminent threat to life or well-being and that's it. If you don't agree with that, give my buddies at KPD a call and they'll be glad to drop your LEO-wannabe ass into 17 weeks of Police Academy hell.

[/soapbox]

[Guest justme]

Because you are making assumptions that are not correct.

I was a Police Officer in Illinois (Where carry is prohibited by everyone except LEO’s) and I was stationed in Virginia for two years.

Even though it is a crime by itself to carry in Illinois we still responded to disturbances in bars where guns were involved…. A lot. I wasn’t a cop in Virginia; but I witnessed drunks pull guns in bars; first hand. Your statement “and yet we never hear of instances like those you describeâ€; doesn’t hold water. I don’t know why you haven’t heard of them or if you have checked.

As I stated… I support you being able to carry in a restaurant or even a bar; as long as you don’t drink.

I support carry on a college campus.

I do not support any legislation that allows you to drink while carrying in any bar or restaurant.

I really don’t want to address the LEO problem you have, it’s been beat to death here. We are not LEO’s; and what applies to them will not apply to us and vice versa. Let’s worry about us.

Having re-read your original statement several times I admit I misread what you wrote--and for that I apologize. I originally misread your post as saying that you didn't support carry of firearms in restaurants that serve alcohol--that is my fault for not paying much closer attention to what I was doing. I should think before I speak. So for that I apologize.

Now I just have one simple question that should not even need to be asked--and that question is: who in their right minds would consume alcohol while carrying a gun? To say that it is a stupid idea is an understatement.

As for the leo part--I was merely point out that they aren't more trustworthy than any other citizen--or any less. All are human, and all make mistakes--period. Starting an argument over that is not something I want to do.

As for not finding more instances of inebriated open carriers in Virginia-perhaps I have not looked hard enough, but after paying attention to several Virginia news sites over a prolonged period of time, as well as the national news media--I just have not seen any instances of individuals arrested for drinking and carrying...are there some--more than likely, but so far I just have not found any.

Mistakes happen all the time--no one is perfect, and it only takes one mistake while carrying to change things forever. And As with you--I don't support carrying while drinking--it is just stupid beyond words to even consider it.

The question--how can one differentiate in the law between a bar, and a restaurant in order to allow carrying in restaurants while disallowing and criminalizing carrying in bars, strip clubs and night clubs where people go for the sole purpose of drinking and so on?

[Guest justme]

Agreed 100%.

[soapbox]

An HCP or CCP does not give us superhuman law enforcement capabilities. It gives us the right to carry a firearm for our protection. Nobody with an HCP is going to draw down on someone in an attempt to arrest them for a crime. That's the job of a LEO. Our job as permit holders is to protect ourselves and those around us from an imminent threat to life or well-being and that's it. If you don't agree with that, give my buddies at KPD a call and they'll be glad to drop your LEO-wannabe ass into 17 weeks of Police Academy hell.

[/soapbox]

Drop the attitude, it won't get you anywhere. I'm not a wanna be anything, if I was going to do something worthwhile I would enlist in the Army and go to Afghanistan and hump a rucksack and an M4 around the mountains and valleys of Afghanistan instead of wasting my time in some police academy that is full of wanna be soldiers who come out of the academy on a power trip.

I'm not interested in this thread being hijacked--so do us a favor and drop this before this thread gets taken in an entirely wrong direction.

Edited February 6, 2009 by justme

[DaveTN]

if I was going to do something worthwhile I would enlist in the Army and go to Afghanistan and hump a rucksack and an M4 around the mountains and valleys of Afghanistan instead of wasting my time in some police academy that is full of wanna be soldiers who come out of the academy on a power trip.

[strickj]

Got room for one more? Ill bring the popcorn!

Edit; Oh,I see you're fairly new here justme,so Ill let you know that cop bashing is not our forte!

Edited February 6, 2009 by strickj

[Guest sgtrutledge]

Hmmmmmmm:death:

[Guest justme]

Got room for one more? Ill bring the popcorn!

Edit; Oh,I see you're fairly new here justme,so Ill let you know that cop bashing is not our forte!

I am new here, and bashing is not my forte either, but neither is it my forte to stand by while someone tries to bash me. I'm not a wanna be anything, never have been, never claimed to be. As for what people call "bashing"--calling a spade a spade is not bashing, as long as it is the truth. I just think the same laws should apply to everyone equally. Nothing wrong in that.

As for my purpose--it is to increase my understanding, to gain insight and to see advancements made for the betterment of the 2nd Amendment, and our other rights as well.

As I said, I don't want this thread hijacked. Which is why I want this side discussion to terminate.

[Guest m&pc9]

The question--how can one differentiate in the law between a bar, and a restaurant in order to allow carrying in restaurants while disallowing and criminalizing carrying in bars, strip clubs and night clubs where people go for the sole purpose of drinking and so on?

I have been to bars, strip clubs and night clubs and not touched a drink of alcohol, as a designated driver. And in those times I would like to have been carrying. And as a law abiding, tax paying citizen I think I should be able to. But it seems I cant because some people cant deal with the temptations of alcohol. And any time I do drink I put my gun up in the safe.

And I agree with Dave I will not support any legislation that allows you to drink with a gun.

[Fallguy]

Just to be clear....none of this legilation mentions that it is ok to drink while armed. Most, if not all, of the bills specifically say that you can not drink. But even if that is not in the bill there is still 39-17-1321 which says it is illegal to be in possesion of a handgun while "under the influence". All I have said is, I wish there was a more black and white guidline, like for DUI, than just up to the discreation of the officer.

But........................

If you can have one or two drinks with a meal and still drive home in your car and it be legal, not so sure why it should be illegal to be armed.

What if you do decided to leave your gun in the car, have your drinks with the meal, come back and rearm yourself. What is the difference if you would have been armed the whole time?

[Punisher84]

If you can have one or two drinks with a meal and still drive home in your car and it be legal, not so sure why it should be illegal to be armed.

What if you do decided to leave your gun in the car, have your drinks with the meal, come back and rearm yourself. What is the difference if you would have been armed the whole time?

That is a really good point.

[Guest m&pc9]

If you can have one or two drinks with a meal and still drive home in your car and it be legal, not so sure why it should be illegal to be armed.

What if you do decided to leave your gun in the car, have your drinks with the meal, come back and rearm yourself. What is the difference if you would have been armed the whole time?

The only problem I see is, I think most DUI drivers dont think they are to drunk to drive. I know I have woke up a few times and wondered how I got home ( in my young and dumb years). So where and how do you draw the line. I know some people dont use their head when drinking.

[Fallguy]

The only problem I see is, I think most DUI drivers dont think they are to drunk to drive. I know I have woke up a few times and wondered how I got home ( in my young and dumb years). So where and how do you draw the line. I know some people dont use their head when drinking.

....and drunk drivers go to jail.

I'm all for if you are drunk and armed of you going to jail. Just wish there was more of a standard to define drunk for being armed, like there is for driving.

There are folks that don't use their heads while doing lots of activities, but does that always mean everyone should be banned doing them?

[DaveTN]

Just to be clear....none of this legilation mentions that it is ok to drink while armed. Most, if not all, of the bills specifically say that you can not drink. But even if that is not in the bill there is still 39-17-1321 which says it is illegal to be in possesion of a handgun while "under the influence". All I have said is, I wish there was a more black and white guidline, like for DUI, than just up to the discreation of the officer.

But........................

If you can have one or two drinks with a meal and still drive home in your car and it be legal, not so sure why it should be illegal to be armed.

What if you do decided to leave your gun in the car, have your drinks with the meal, come back and rearm yourself. What is the difference if you would have been armed the whole time?

Most of the drunks that I arrested only had “two beersâ€.

,08% is the point that Tennessee has determined you are too impaired to operate a motor vehicle. Impairment is not the point that I would want to use as a standard for the ability of you to make a decision to pull a gun, or take a life.

I would guess that is why they have left it to the discretion of the Officer to determine if you should be carrying. I have no problem with that; you can always fight it in court. If drinking while carrying is important enough for you to risk your HCP; then so be it.

I really don’t care if you drink and carry (as long as you don’t do it around me). But the point I was making is that our legislature has changed and we have an opportunity here. I would hate to see a restaurant carry bill fail because it either did not address, or tried to allow an HCP holder to drink. I don’t think the public would buy it, I think its irresponsible at face value, and I think it would mean certain defeat.

Buy hey, I could be wrong.

[DaveTN]

....and drunk drivers go to jail.

I'm all for if you are drunk and armed of you going to jail. Just wish there was more of a standard to define drunk for being armed, like there is for driving.

There are folks that don't use their heads while doing lots of activities, but does that always mean everyone should be banned doing them?

Drinking and driving is no longer sociably acceptable. I expect that soon it will be outlawed all together.

There are certain things that you don’t do while operating a vehicle or carrying a firearm; drinking alcohol is one of them. Common sense tells us that both of those require you to be in full control; not impaired even a little bit.

[Fallguy]

I really don’t care if you drink and carry (as long as you don’t do it around me). But the point I was making is that our legislature has changed and we have an opportunity here. I would hate to see a restaurant carry bill fail because it either did not address, or tried to allow an HCP holder to drink. I don’t think the public would buy it, I think its irresponsible at face value, and I think it would mean certain defeat.

Buy hey, I could be wrong.

I agree, right now the prioity is to just to allow it period. ..and I do agree that compensations may have to be made to do that.

I am speaking more in general as opposed to what needs to try and be accomplished this session.

[Fallguy]

Drinking and driving is no longer sociably acceptable. I expect that soon it will be outlawed all together.

There are certain things that you don’t do while operating a vehicle or carrying a firearm; drinking alcohol is one of them. Common sense tells us that both of those require you to be in full control; not impaired even a little bit.

Right now it is illegal for the driver of a vehicle to consume alcohol while driving. I agree that at some point it will be illegal for all in the vehicle to be drinking.

But surely you don't mean you can drive to Outback, have one beer, and then it be illegal to drive home?

[bvarnell]

Right now it is illegal for the driver of a vehicle to consume alcohol while driving. I agree that at some point it will be illegal for all in the vehicle to be drinking.

But surely you don't mean you can drive to Outback, have one beer, and then it be illegal to drive home?

My thoughts exactly. If someone cannot go to a good restaurant and have two drinks with dinner, then you will see them closing by the dozens. No good restaurant can survive on food sales alone.

Don't believe it, go to a dry county and see how many good restaurants you can find.

[Guest HexHead]

And I agree with Dave I will not support any legislation that allows you to drink with a gun.

Given the difficulty just getting restaurant carry in TN, I doubt you'll ever have to be concerned about that.

[Guest HexHead]

08% is the point that Tennessee has determined you are too impaired to operate a motor vehicle.

That's BS. .08% was the number lobbied for by MADD. Just like raising the drinking age to 21 in states that were 18. That organization is no better than PETA.

[Guest HexHead]

Don't believe it, go to a dry county and see how many good restaurants you can find.

Or restaurants period, if you don't count fast food. Look at the way Smyrna has grown since approving liquor by the drink as opposed to LaVergne which remains a wide spot in the road.

[DaveTN]

But surely you don't mean you can drive to Outback, have one beer, and then it be illegal to drive home?

That is exactly what I’m saying.

HexHead hit on it… MADD. Although I can’t compare them to PETA. What has PETA ever done?

What has MADD done? Well they have had DUI discretion taken away from cops in most departments I know of. They have had the BAC levels dropped in most states (and I think that will continue). They get most anti drunk driving bills passed. They have joined with the insurance companies and given fully equipped squad cars to Police Departments to use specifically for DUI enforcement. They have caused legislation for tougher drunk driving penalties in many states (Felony DUI).

Think what you want about them but they certainly have had an impact. If MAG ever gets the focus and determination of MADD; we are all screwed.

[Fallguy]

That is exactly what I’m saying.

HexHead hit on it… MADD. Although I can’t compare them to PETA. What has PETA ever done?

What has MADD done? Well they have had DUI discretion taken away from cops in most departments I know of. They have had the BAC levels dropped in most states (and I think that will continue). They get most anti drunk driving bills passed. They have joined with the insurance companies and given fully equipped squad cars to Police Departments to use specifically for DUI enforcement. They have caused legislation for tougher drunk driving penalties in many states (Felony DUI).

Think what you want about them but they certainly have had an impact. If MAG ever gets the focus and determination of MADD; we are all screwed.

There is no doubt that MADD has SUPER political power, but I'm not sure how they could even go that far.....but maybe close though I guess.

I mean if I go in, have my single drink, and can't drive.....how long can't I drive? Then even if there was some sort of set time after the last drink, how would an officer actually determine how long it has been?