Bill would allow deadly force against carjackers

[Guest JCE]

Well I'm all for it

http://www.commercialappeal.com/mca/midsouth_news/article/0,1426,MCA_1497_5349925,00.html

Bill would allow deadly force against carjackers

Lawmakers consider extending self-defense outside homes

By Richard Locker

Contact

February 14, 2007

NASHVILLE -- Spurred by violent crime in Memphis and elsewhere, Tennessee legislators have filed several bills to expand the legal rights of people to use deadly force when threatened by would-be attackers.

One would specifically allow people in motor vehicles to kill or "cause serious bodily injury" to attackers -- both inside or outside the vehicle -- who they believe are threatening to murder, rape, kidnap, rob or carjack the car's occupants.

That bill was filed Rep. Ulysses Jones and Sen. Reginald Tate, both Memphis Democrats. "I've heard a lot of support for this. It's time to give citizens the opportunity to protect themselves. Right now, we're at the mercy of what I call 'scum'," Jones, a Memphis Fire Department paramedic, said Tuesday.

Another bill by Jones and Sen. Dewayne Bunch, R-Cleveland, would extend the right of business owners or their security guards to use deadly force inside or immediately outside their businesses, against a person who "unlawfully and forcibly" enters or attempts to enter, if they have a "reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or serious bodily injury" to themselves, employees or customers.

Those two proposals are among 11 bills filed through Tuesday that would extend rights of citizens to defend themselves outside of their homes. Current Tennessee law allows residents to use deadly force against someone who breaks into their homes while they're at home; there's a legal presumption that an intruder intends to cause occupants harm.

Shelby County Dist. Atty. Gen. William Gibbons, who was in the State Capitol Tuesday meeting with lawmakers on other matters, said he "conceptually supports" legislation such as Jones' anti-carjacking bill but couldn't comment on it specifically because he hadn't seen it.

Several of the newly filed bills would enact "no-retreat" laws, permitting the use of deadly force in self-defense against would-be malefactors that a citizen believes is threatening to attack them. The National Rifle Association has pushed similar laws in other states, and won approval of one in Florida in 2005 that says citizens have no duty to back down from an attacker before firing a weapon.

Jones said he filed his two bills because crime in Memphis and elsewhere leaves people feeling vulnerable. He said he hopes people will seek proper training before using the force the bills would -- if signed into law -- authorize.

Tennessee's gun-carry laws require people to undergo firearms training with certified instructors before being issued permits.

Other Memphis area lawmakers who have filed bills expanding the legal authority for self-defense with deadly force include Sens. Mark Norris, R-Collierville, Paul Stanley, R-Germantown, and Roy Herron, D-Dresden.

All of the bills are expected to undergo close scrutiny and face an uphill battle becoming law. No law can be enacted without approval of both the Senate and House of Representatives, and ultimately the governor.

-- Richard Locker: (615) 255-4923 Copyright 2007, commercialappeal.com - Memphis, TN. All Rights Reserved.

[Guest db99wj]

Hey, I was getting ready to post that :doh:

;)

[Guest JCE]

Hey, I was getting ready to post that :doh::doh:

;)

Just as long as somebody posts it

I will be emailing my reps urging their support, I think everyone else should too

[Guest db99wj]

abc24 news in Memphis just did a story on it, the lady newscaster was "acting" out a scene where a man comes up to her car to carjack her and she pulls a gun, her finger was wrapped around the trigger and pointed the gun point blank at the dude.

Also, they kept saying you have the right to do shoot someone if your life is in danger, but never mentioned having a permit or anything about carrying a firearm in your car, legal or not legal.

Well, here take a look,

http://www.myeyewitnessnews.com/mediacenter/local.aspx?videoId=280559@video.abc24.com&navCatId=12

For some reason I can't get it to play but some of you might.

[Guest JCE]

They say there are 11 bills or so that are self-defense related, hopefully they

could combine the best elements of them into a good comprehensive bill on the issue of

self-defense.

Maybe change some of the ridiculous carry restrictions too.

I worry that since Bredesen is a lame-duck gov now, the liberal in him will

emerge. If a good bill makes it to his desk I hope he signs it, if Naifah lets

it get that far:rolleyes:

[Guest GlocKingTN]

Maybe this will pass and our protection area will expand. My yard is still mine. No one elses! If you are in my yard, you are trespassing. I feel sorta like thats stealing from me.

[twstdstng]

i do not have a problem shooting someone in any of the above mentioned circumstances.legal or not. i am gonna try to kill you if you try to kill me be it in my house,job or in my car i will shoot you.and i do not have a carry permit at this time and i am not sure i want one.i have mulled over the idea for a long time.i have strongly considered getting a permit to make it legal,but on the other hand why should i?could get thrown in jail?but i am not gonna go out and try to rob someone,just wanna protect myself and my family thats all.

[Guest salb3039]

Anybody have a list of addresses/emails for state legislators? I'd like to get some word out too.

[Guest GlocKingTN]

Anybody have a list of addresses/emails for state legislators? I'd like to get some word out too.

You should be able to find all that info on the Tennessee website.

[jgrauman]

i do not have a problem shooting someone in any of the above mentioned circumstances.legal or not. i am gonna try to kill you if you try to kill me be it in my house,job or in my car i will shoot you.and i do not have a carry permit at this time and i am not sure i want one.i have mulled over the idea for a long time.i have strongly considered getting a permit to make it legal,but on the other hand why should i?could get thrown in jail?but i am not gonna go out and try to rob someone,just wanna protect myself and my family thats all.

i ponderd those same questions for a while and after carrying illegaly for almost 6 months i decided to go ahead and get mine. the thing that turned me was getting pulled over for a traffic violation and having an over zealous cop think he "sees somthing" and pull me out and find my gun, then i would be screwed. i had this happen in high school, i was jerked out of my car at gun point. if this happened again then that would put the cop in the right because i was illegaly carrying. oh and you'd lose your gun! which would really suck

[Guest salb3039]

I emailed my state senator and congressman. Hopefully I'll get a reply. I addressed the current bill as well as the possibility of a future bill allowing carry in restaurants.

[Guest db99wj]

Here is a follow up article in the commercial appeal. I highlighted an interesting, to me anyway, section.

Experts take shots at deadly force bills

Current law makes expansion unnecessary in Tenn., they say

By Chris Conley

Contact

February 16, 2007

Proposed legislation expanding the right to use deadly force in self-defense against carjackers and other attackers isn't needed, law enforcement experts say. Tennessee law already gives citizens the right if they have a reasonable fear of harm from a carjacker, rapist, burglar or any violent assailant.

"The law is already on the books," said Sgt. Vince Higgins, spokesman for the Memphis Police Department. And while some states require citizens to try to avoid a confrontation before using deadly force, Tennessee does not.

The issue emerged this week with a bill proposed by Rep. Ulysses Jones and Sen. Reginald Tate, both D-Memphis, that would allow people in motor vehicles to kill attackers, both inside and outside their vehicles, if they are in fear for their lives and safety.

"It's time to give citizens the opportunity to protect themselves. Right now, we're at the mercy of what I call 'scum,'" Jones said Tuesday.

He did not return a reporter's telephone calls to his office Thursday.

Tom Givens, chief instructor and owner of RangeMaster, said of the legislation, "It wouldn't change anything."

In addition to training citizens to use a gun properly, Givens and his instructors inform their students of their self-defense rights and the limits on those rights.

The bill presented by Jones and Tate appears to extend to one's vehicle a section of the law, which says you are presumed to be in fear of your life when someone breaks into your residence.

"It doesn't matter if you are in your home, in your car, or in your swimming pool," prosecutor Tom Henderson said.

Furthermore, even if you are packing a gun without a permit and shoot someone, you cannot be prosecuted on the gun charge if the shooting is ruled justified.

Henderson is often called upon to determine whether a shooting is self-defense, or if the shooter needs to be prosecuted.

The burden is on the police and prosecutors to show the person did not act in self-defense.

Memphis Shelby Crime Commission president and CEO Michael Heidingsfield, a supporter of "no retreat" laws, warns "the language has to be tailored to make sure it doesn't become the Wild West."

Much of what is being proposed is an effort to establish the widest possible boundaries for citizens, said state Sen. Roy Herron D-Dresden, who presented one of the bills.

"We want to give every law-abiding citizen every possible defense to protect himself," he said, "to put the lines as far out as we can."

Herron said his bill on deadly force is a vehicle for reform, and is not in its final form. Bills had to be filed this week to make a deadline.

He said he will be talking to the state attorney general, local police chiefs and prosecutors.

The rights of the citizen under attack are inherent in the current laws, but are not delineated, said state Sen. Mark Norris, R-Collierville, who has a pending bill.

"We are trying to spell it out," he said, "to make it clear what your rights are. It gives folks more confidence."

Crime is a big issue in his district, and seemingly everywhere, Norris said. "It's more pervasive than in the past. There's more disregard for human life."

"It lays it out for the layman," said Millington Police Chief Rick Jewell. "People often are ignorant of what the law is."

However, anyone who has a carry permit undergoes training that spells out the law.

"If they have been through a carrying class, they know," said Bartlett Police Chief Mark Hopper.

[TGO David]

i do not have a problem shooting someone in any of the above mentioned circumstances.legal or not. i am gonna try to kill you if you try to kill me be it in my house,job or in my car i will shoot you.and i do not have a carry permit at this time and i am not sure i want one.i have mulled over the idea for a long time.i have strongly considered getting a permit to make it legal,but on the other hand why should i?could get thrown in jail?but i am not gonna go out and try to rob someone,just wanna protect myself and my family thats all.

Get the permit!!! There are too many instances where you could be found out, and being caught could result in you never being able to get your permit in the future and possibly forfeiting your gun ownership rights entirely.

It's just not worth it.

[shaftbass]

Why wouldn't you get the permit You said you weren't sure you wanted one but didn't say any reason.

Why should you? Well, keep up the news around here and everywhere. Laws on "gun crimes" (ie: carrying without a permit) are getting tougher with mandatory jail time and can land you in some serious ****. It would cost a ton of money in legal fees, you could go to jail for a stint, then who's going to be there to protect your family? Just spend the money, take the Saturday, and get the permit. A guy on here even does it for $20 in Gallatin. I realize that's out of the way but there are people where you live who teach the class.

I just don't understand why someone in a state which allows handgun permits wouldn't want to get one, yet carries a handgun.

[Guest db99wj]

Besides if you are involved in shooting, even if it is justified, the family of the bad guy you took out is going to sue you in civil court. If you were not in your home, they are going to destroy you. If you have a permit, you have had training, you were legally able to carry that handgun, you were trained in a formal state approved class that teaches to eliminate a threat by shooting at center mass, you at least have a chance of that jury seeing it more your way.

[twstdstng]

you guys all have a great point about getting one for the legal reasons.money is not the issue and they do have classes around here for them,i guess i am just stubborn.i have a copy of my dads ffl on me so that might help a little,but does not justify loaded carry.

[twstdstng]

Besides if you are involved in shooting, even if it is justified, the family of the bad guy you took out is going to sue you in civil court. If you were not in your home, they are going to destroy you. If you have a permit, you have had training, you were legally able to carry that handgun, you were trained in a formal state approved class that teaches to eliminate a threat by shooting at center mass, you at least have a chance of that jury seeing it more your way.

good point but do you think in a civil suit the lawyers wont try to rip you apart anyway?these people feed off any way to make a buck for themselves and i dont think they care if they are right or wrong justified or not as long as they get paid. god forbid you have to deal with this sort of problem in a court. if you do you are allready screwed. and i dont think in a justified shooting the state is going to bring any criminal charges. in a civil suit someone is going to get paid and if you are the defendant you are gonna have to pay out heavily win or loose.pay your lawyer or pay yours and theirs either way it wont be cheep.but i am strongly considering getting my permit just so i can be legal.

[twstdstng]

Why wouldn't you get the permit You said you weren't sure you wanted one but didn't say any reason.

Why should you? Well, keep up the news around here and everywhere. Laws on "gun crimes" (ie: carrying without a permit) are getting tougher with mandatory jail time and can land you in some serious ****. It would cost a ton of money in legal fees, you could go to jail for a stint, then who's going to be there to protect your family? Just spend the money, take the Saturday, and get the permit. A guy on here even does it for $20 in Gallatin. I realize that's out of the way but there are people where you live who teach the class.

I just don't understand why someone in a state which allows handgun permits wouldn't want to get one, yet carries a handgun.

i grew up in a gun shop,i carried one long before they ever allowed legal carry,just stubborn and dont want to conform the the man.lol i know that it is easy to obtain and i should get the permit just to be legal or keep my butt out of jail in the instance where i am found with a gun.i guess i am just old school stubborn.i am going to look into getting the stinking permit in the next week or so. thanks for convincing me.

[Guest JCE]

good point but do you think in a civil suit the lawyers wont try to rip you apart anyway?

Yes, but why make it easier for them?

[saintsfanbrian]

Getting the permit is easy. As for carjackings, well, if you come up to my car and put a gun in my face before I can even get a hand on mine, you can have the car. I won't risk leaving my wife a widow and my kids with out a dad over my jeep. Now, if my kids are in the car, I don't care if you have a bazooka in my face, we are going to shots and I just hope I am quicker than you.

[Guest db99wj]

good point but do you think in a civil suit the lawyers wont try to rip you apart anyway?these people feed off any way to make a buck for themselves and i dont think they care if they are right or wrong justified or not as long as they get paid. god forbid you have to deal with this sort of problem in a court. if you do you are allready screwed. and i dont think in a justified shooting the state is going to bring any criminal charges. in a civil suit someone is going to get paid and if you are the defendant you are gonna have to pay out heavily win or loose.pay your lawyer or pay yours and theirs either way it wont be cheep.but i am strongly considering getting my permit just so i can be legal.

Yes, but why make it easier for them?

Exactly. Why give the lawyer errr umm ammo. If you don't have the permit, they will use that against you. If you do, they will still try to use it against you but your lawyer will at least have something to counter their argument.

[TGO David]

Exactly. Why give the lawyer errr umm ammo. If you don't have the permit, they will use that against you. If you do, they will still try to use it against you but your lawyer will at least have something to counter their argument.

I think the reason is more simple than that.

With permit... You are a law abiding, legally armed citizen.

Without permit... You are a criminal, breaking the law.

Which do you want to be?

[shaftbass]

Taking the time, going through the training class, and spending the money to get a permit shows that you are a responsible, law abiding citizen. That is a +1 on your side if you ever have to shoot someone in self-defense and go to court.

[shaftbass]

[Guest db99wj]

I think the reason is more simple than that.

With permit... You are a law abiding, legally armed citizen.

Without permit... You are a criminal, breaking the law.

Which do you want to be?

Ok, simple works for me too!!!!!!

I tend to over analyze things, at least that is what I have been told:doh: