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[Guest PapaB]

Disgusting. That's all I've got to say about that. It's shameful to think any self respecting American would strip rights away from anyone. Non-whites and non-christians in your case, judging by this and other postings.

Don't put words in my mouth or claim I said things I didn't. Your proclamation that I want to strip the rights from non-whites and non-Christians is an insult to my family, many of whom are not white and some of whom are not Christians.

I said not wanting to teach them is understandable, not that I personally would do it.

I specifically said "I wouldn't want to train someone that might be the next Fort Hood shooter." That is why I personally wouldn't teach any permit classes, not why I'd use it as an excuse to discriminate. If he were forced to teach that particular group I doubt he'd provide an acceptable level of training. I was commenting on his rights versus the ACLU. Had we been talking about the role of the State of Texas, I would have agreed with the idea that his license to teach these classes should be pulled immediately.

I understand why people owned slaves but I myself could never own another human and I don't think their reasons justify their actions. Perhaps, if you were more open-minded, you'd know that there's a difference between understanding how someone else feels and having empathy with their feelings. I can tell you that putting youself in someone elses shoe's for a moment, to see things from their side, doesn't turn you into that person. I recommend you try it before making assumptions next time.

My point wasn't that we should violate the rights of all Muslims, it was that the Islamic extremists make it difficult to identify who is who. That doesn't mean that peaceful Muslims should lose any rights, it means honest people can't just look at them and say who is who. Al-Awlaki claimed to be a peaceful Imam in NYC even as he counseled the Fort Hood shooter and others in the ways of extremism. In many past wars they had the courage to wear uniforms to identify themselves but this group of cowards, that want us all dead, hide among us.

[BigK]

I didn't see the dancing in the streets thing. But I guess you are right, no organized condemnation of 9/11. For that you'd have to have a mayor or something... Oh wait, you're wrong.

Glad we could get that straightened out.

Here's the weird thing, everyone assumes that terrorism is all about religion. This, is quite possibly, the biggest self delusion that has ever existed. I get why people believe it "This person doesn't believe the same stuff I do therefore their religion is the reason they do evil things"

Except that is pure crap. People don't do evil stuff because they are muslim, christian, atheist or whatever. They do stuff and then look for a reason that their religion endorses.

Take the following test:

I'd spend all day tomorrow killing people with a machete except:

A) I'm a christian

C) It's just wrong

If your answer is A you have deeper problems than your religion.

You said you saw no dancing in the streets on 9/11, does that mean a) it didn't happen, you're wrong, or c) it slipped past you? I said I saw no organized condemnation and until you posted this link I hadn't. Glad we got that straightened out.

Maybe there are non-Islamic terrorists out there that do evil stuff w/out regard to their religion, but WRT Muslim terrorists, I think most would disagree with your statement. Haven't you heard reports of Muslim parents complaining that their teen was brainwashed by Imams to commit terrorist acts? Don't most terrorists who take credit for bombings specifically point out that they did it to kill infidels in the name of Ala?

Maybe not, but perhaps we should give Muslim terrorists the following test:

I'd fly a hijacked plane full of infidels into a building full of infidels tomorrow for:

A) Ala, Islam, and 72 virgins

a Klondike Bar

[Guest lostpass]

You said you saw no dancing in the streets on 9/11, does that mean a) it didn't happen, you're wrong, or c) it slipped past you? I said I saw no organized condemnation and until you posted this link I hadn't. Glad we got that straightened out.

I'll go with b and c. Really, I have no doubt that there was dancing in the streets.

Maybe there are non-Islamic terrorists out there that do evil stuff w/out regard to their religion, but WRT Muslim terrorists, I think most would disagree with your statement. Haven't you heard reports of Muslim parents complaining that their teen was brainwashed by Imams to commit terrorist acts? Don't most terrorists who take credit for bombings specifically point out that they did it to kill infidels in the name of Ala?

I'm actually rooting for LSU so I'm not sure who kills in the name of ALa. But you are actually conflating the reason terrorists give with the actual reason they do stuff. These things only rarely intersect. I'm fairly sure that a lot of the terrorism in Ireland was God based but that wasn't why they were really pissed. You don't hear much about it anymore so either God has stopped hating the english or they weren't really pissed about the god part after all.

Maybe not, but perhaps we should give Muslim terrorists the following test:

I'd fly a hijacked plane full of infidels into a building full of infidels tomorrow for:

A) Ala, Islam, and 72 virgins

a Klondike Bar

Well, I'd probably add a C to that test: because I'm pissed off in general.

Look, no matter how many times you are told people die for 72 virgins that isn't the case. It could possibly part of the official religion or something but that doesn't matter. If a heavenly reward was what people are after you'd see a bunch of Christians smoking and crossing against the light because they are promised paradise. Yet they take lipitor and eat cheerios.

Religion is only a justification of something they already want to do. If you look, if you take the time, you'll note that the hijackers only came from a single area. You'll find that the most obvious commonality isn't religion it is region.

But that is a bit uncomfortable. Much easier, much more convenient to say it is just Muslims, much easier to blame the religion than to blame the actual people. Except when it is Tim McVeigh or the unabomber we do blame the actual people.

I would wager that, per capita, muslim terrorism is about on par with Christian terrorism.

Which reminds me of a joke:

Teo old muslims are sitting on a porch and talking. The first muslim says "My boy was a recent martyr. He was only 11"The other guy says "Yeah, the blow up so fast...."

[Oh Shoot]

...I'm actually rooting for LSU so I'm not sure who kills in the name of ALa.

... I'm fairly sure that a lot of the terrorism in Ireland was God based but that wasn't why they were really pissed. You don't hear much about it anymore so either God has stopped hating the english or they weren't really pissed about the god part after all.

...If a heavenly reward was what people are after you'd see a bunch of Christians smoking and crossing against the light because they are promised paradise. Yet they take lipitor and eat cheerios.

...Which reminds me of a joke: Two old muslims are sitting on a porch ...

Rare form tonight, LP, I'm rollin' in the aisles here!

- OS

[G27]

Much easier, much more convenient to say it is just Muslims, much easier to blame the religion than to blame the actual people. Except when it is Tim McVeigh or the unabomber we do blame the actual people.

But again, this ignores the two points I've made earlier:

1- the sheer number of 'islamic extremists' is mind boggling compared to any other group. Sure, there are individuals from other religions / backgrounds / etc., but they equate to a very small percentage of the atrocities.

2- sure, there are other commonalities among groups within the islamic extremists, but you can't deny the most obvious - they're all muslims.

Spin all you want, the point remains that from a pure numbers standpoint, nothing compares - and it's not even close.

So why is it that all these religious zealots are doing this stuff? It's not regional, as it happens literally all over the world. Besides their religion, what else do all of them have in common? (not a rhetorical question)

[G27]

If a heavenly reward was what people are after you'd see a bunch of Christians smoking and crossing against the light because they are promised paradise. Yet they take lipitor and eat cheerios.

Haha, funny, but inaccurate - there's nothing in the bible that advocates killing yourself in order to get your reward. Quite the opposite, in fact...

[BigK]

...I'm fairly sure that a lot of the terrorism in Ireland was God based but that wasn't why they were really pissed. You don't hear much about it anymore so either God has stopped hating the english or they weren't really pissed about the god part after all.

Point well taken and well delivered...I would not argue that religion was folded into the IRA doctrine to foment and focus the hate most northern Irish already had for England.

Well, I'd probably add a C to that test: because I'm pissed off in general.

Religion is only a justification of something they already want to do. If you look, if you take the time, you'll note that the hijackers only came from a single area. You'll find that the most obvious commonality isn't religion it is region.

There have been converts from America and other places who joined the ranks of the mujahideen, but since it's so few, I'll concede that most Muslim terrorists come from Muslim countries. A lot of these countries would be a shi++y place to grow up and I'd be pissed off, if I grew up there too. However, there are hundreds of millions of them who never decide to become terrorists, despite living in the same region. It's not until they are corrupted by religious zealots that they decide to become martyrs.

Which reminds me of a joke:

Teo old muslims are sitting on a porch and talking. The first muslim says "My boy was a recent martyr. He was only 11"The other guy says "Yeah, the blow up so fast...."

That's a good one! Thanks for lightening it up. Respectful disagreements/conversations get out of hand without a little levity, so here's one for you...

What's the difference between a Muslim and a dead horse?

...it's no fun beating a dead horse

Edited November 5, 2011 by BigK

[Guest Lester Weevils]

There have been converts from America and other places who joined the ranks of the mujahideen, but since it's so few, I'll concede that most Muslim terrorists come from Muslim countries. A lot of these countries would be a shi++y place to grow up and I'd be pissed off, if I grew up there too. However, there are hundreds of millions of them who never decide to become terrorists, despite living in the same region. It's not until they are corrupted by religious zealots that they decide to become martyrs.

I'm not offering opinion whether religion causes violence or merely provides justification. The 9/11 terrorist soldiers were generally middle-class or higher who had scant reason to be personally peed-off about their condition growing up. Osama Bin Laden was a wealthy millionaire who had everything handed to him on a silver platter. Ayman al-Zawahiri is a physician from an upper-middle family of educated professionals and scholars. Had Zawahiri so desired he could likely have immigrated to USA and made truckloads of money and lived in a luxury gated community and played golf on every sunny afternoon. The underwear bomber is the son of one of the richest men in Africa.

Many of the lower-level terrorist cannon-fodder come from humble bad situations, but the leadership seems primarily middle-class or wealthy. So if the leaders are peed-off about middle-eastern socio-economic conditions then it seems abstract peed-off rather than personal grudge.

Many rich Saudi royalty heavily financially support anti-Israel terrorist causes. Perhaps they are merely pragmatically playing both ends against the middle, paying off the immams and peed-off lower classes in order to focus aggression on Israel rather than turn the aggression inward and overthrow the privileged royalty. Or perhaps they really do believe that jews should be exterminated.

Aggression seems innate to most people. It can be sublimated into chess tournaments, high school football rivalries, industrial/scientific/technology competition, price wars between neighboring gas stations, wallstreet monopoly games with real money, political contests, hacker competitions, shredding matches or jam-session cutting sessions among musicians, lawnmower races, whatever.

If a kid gradually grows interested in genetics and then gets fixated on sequencing genomes better/quicker than any competing scientists-- It seems unlikely the kid decides "Someday I'm gonna shred everybody in the world on genome sequencing" and then casts around to discover and learn molecular biology in order to justify his evil plan?

Along the same lines, does a kid decide, "Someday I'm gonna kill as many enemies possible" and then start looking for the best justification for the evil plan? Or do the beliefs and values he learns, channel whatever aggression might naturally arise in the person?

A religion which teaches from childhood that it is virtuous to kill infidels, seems at least somewhat likely to help channel a person's natural aggression into killing infidels?

Or alternately-- Social misery and injustice has always been with us. If a fellow looks at his neighbors and sees them miserable and decides to fix it-- The fellow can see the symptoms of what is wrong and must find an explanation of why it got wrong and how it can be solved. Every culture has a big mix of ideas, memes "floating around". The mix of memes is different in different cultures. Some places there are more capitalistic or rationalistic memes. Some places there are more socialistic memes. Some places there are more militaristic memes, or religious memes.

Some memes seem stronger or more seductive, somewhat depending on the time, place, situation. Some memes are more likely infectious.

A guy wants to alleviate the misery of his neighbors, maybe he decides that starting a business or charity is the solution. Maybe he decides that conquering other nations and taking their wealth is the solution. Maybe he decides that "bad people" need extermination or that the ungodly need punishment. Maybe he decides that physical comforts mean little and as long as people are spiritually pure it doesn't matter if they are living in squalor. Maybe he decides that some flavor of socialistic utopia will make people happy and wealthy.

Militant islam seems a pretty competitive meme for explaining the reasons for misery and the methods of solution. Places where that meme is strong, perhaps encourage channeling of natural aggression in a terrorist direction.

[Guest lostpass]

But again, this ignores the two points I've made earlier:1- the sheer number of 'islamic extremists' is mind boggling compared to any other group. Sure, there are individuals from other religions / backgrounds / etc., but they equate to a very small percentage of the atrocities.2- sure, there are other commonalities among groups within the islamic extremists, but you can't deny the most obvious - they're all muslims.Spin all you want, the point remains that from a pure numbers standpoint, nothing compares - and it's not even close.So why is it that all these religious zealots are doing this stuff? It's not regional, as it happens literally all over the world. Besides their religion, what else do all of them have in common? (not a rhetorical question)

Okay, so bring the numbers. Haven't seen any yet. You're making the claim, which (for all I know) might be true. If I make a claim like that, that the numbers are mind boggling, I'd bring the numbers.

[G27]

Okay, so bring the numbers. Haven't seen any yet. You're making the claim, which (for all I know) might be true. If I make a claim like that, that the numbers are mind boggling, I'd bring the numbers.

Maybe you missed this earlier in the thread - an updated list of islamic terror attacks over the last two months: Islam: Making a True Difference in the World - One Body at a Time

Remember, that list is just in the last two months.

It's truly mind boggling.

[Guest adamoxtwo]

Screw them. If someone is not an American Born Citizen I feel that it should be ok to deny them firearms training. Right wrong or indifferent. You can what if and say that anyone can be a terrorist and you would be correct, but I believe in playing the odds. Kinda like taking the "Sure thing" to Prom....maybe not the besty one to take, but you can predict how things can end up most of the time. Just sayin.

[Guest bkelm18]

"God given rights"**

**Offer applicable to American citizens of European descent only. All non-citizens must surrender all such rights, implied or deity given, on American soil. Offer only good while supplies last. War is peace. Ignorance is Strength. Freedom is slavery.

Edited November 7, 2011 by bkelm18

[Guest lostpass]

Maybe you missed this earlier in the thread - an updated list of islamic terror attacks over the last two months: Islam: Making a True Difference in the World - One Body at a Time

Remember, that list is just in the last two months.

It's truly mind boggling.

That list is truly interesting. I see a lot of Iraq and Afghanistan in there. Which is strange, mist people would say those are rebels and not terrorists. Well, terrorists when they aren't on your side I guess.

The problem I'm having is the thought that somehow Islam is responsible for the terrorism. Your argument is that since there are so many Islamic terrorists then islam must be responsible for this. That conclusion conflates correlation with causality. I submit that maybe people who want to blow themselves up look decide to do that first and then join the religion. I think there are plenty of examples of home grown terrorists that converted to Islam. I suspect Islam didn't tell the shoe bomber to blow himself up (or try to) but rather that the guy wanted to blow himself and needed to find a reason.

[G27]

That conclusion conflates correlation with causality. I submit that maybe people who want to blow themselves up look decide to do that first and then join the religion. I think there are plenty of examples of home grown terrorists that converted to Islam. I suspect Islam didn't tell the shoe bomber to blow himself up (or try to) but rather that the guy wanted to blow himself and needed to find a reason.

Occam's razor.

[mav]

I submit that maybe people who want to blow themselves up look decide to do that first and then join the religion. I think there are plenty of examples of home grown terrorists that converted to Islam. I suspect Islam didn't tell the shoe bomber to blow himself up (or try to) but rather that the guy wanted to blow himself and needed to find a reason.

Now, if you want to make the argument that Islam may not be responsible for suicide bombers because of those who are selected for suicide have been brainwashed, and they have been fed a distortion on the tenets of the Islamic faith. Well... that is a valid, although debatable, point. However, to suggest that suicide bombers are those who have made the decision to kill themselves and as many people as possible and then join Islam to find justification is just utter philosophical nonsense. There may be the individual who meets that criteria, but it would be such a rare case that it really has no grounding in reality.

[TMF]

Which is strange, mist people would say those are rebels and not terrorists. Well, terrorists when they aren't on your side I guess.

Rebels become terrorists when they use such tactics as strapping claymore vests to two mentally challenged people, then make them walk into a busy market and detonate said vests killing scores of innocent men, women and children. This happened. It is not an exaggeration; it happened, and it is merely a glimpse of what I've seen. Once you see enough of it you can no longer ignore what is self evident. Do you think the group that did that should be classified as freedom fighters?